A440 vs A435

[Gandalfe]

My friend David H. Bailey said this and I thought I'd share it here:

"One thing needs to be made clear, and often muddies such
discussions about intonation and standard tuning pitch.

When such international standards are set, the frequency is
stipulated along with a specific temperature and humidity
level of the room in which it is to be used.

Vincent Bach discussed this a long time ago in an article
which I unfortunately can't locate right now or I would
quote from it.

But we can't simply say "A435" or "A440" because the
standard also implies using that pitch in a room at a
specific temperature, and if the room we're in is lower or
higher than that specified temperature, that frequency is no
longer valid as a standard.

He said that when A435 was agreed to, sometime in the late
1800s, it was in a colder room than the A440 was agreed on,
and if that room for A435 was warmed to the new specified
temperature the A435 became A440. So the standard didn't
really change, simply how it was measured."

 

[Groovekiller]

Pitch standards always have a tendency to rise because individual players err on the sharp side to add "presence" to their sound.

In the early 1800s in Europe, pitch varied from place to place, and concert A often reached 450 cps in some areas. When opera singers had trouble hitting their highest notes, France made A=435 the legal standard in 1859. The result? Nothing much changed. Most existing instruments were pitched higher than A=435, and manufacturers were not eager to produce instruments that sounded flatter than horns currently in use.

My Adolphe Sax baritone saxophone made in 1861, two years AFTER the new law, plays best at around A=440-445 depending on the mouthpiece, and it was made for the French military.

Years later, the French pitch had gradually fallen, and my 1876 Adolphe Sax alto plays well at A=435. But the tendency to play a little above the prevailing pitch is relentless. By manipulating the temperature at which pitch is determined, or by other schemes, the "A=435" instruments built in the early 20th century were near or at A=440 before the standard pitch was set at A=440 officially.

Many "A=435" instruments play very well alongside "A=440" instruments. Today, it really doesn't matter what pitch is used to tune an orchestra. The actual playing pitch usually rises. We often blame the strings, but the entire ensemble will find its own level. The fact that volume levels are also rising makes the situation even worse, because wind instruments except flute go flat as volume increases. Good players often tune a little high so that they can sound good at the climax of a piece.

 

[pete]

Many "A=435" instruments play very well alongside "A=440" instruments. Today, it really doesn't matter what pitch is used to tune an orchestra. The actual playing pitch usually rises. We often blame the strings, but the entire ensemble will find its own level.

Before the nice chaps at Cox decided to take down cable on the entire street, I was writing something simular:

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Yah. I remember the bit about the temperatures when I wrote an article for SOTW about high v. low pich. However ...

The idea behind having a tuning standard is to make sure everyone is agreeing on a particular tuning. In other words, if I play a concert A on my sax, it should be exactly in tune (to an extent, of course) with the person playing a concert A on his bassoon and we'll be in tune with the clarinet player that's playing a concert A, etc.

Another way of saying, yes, I get the point, but I don't think it matters for the player. I think it does matter if you're building an instrument. It might matter, a bit, for the folks that make mouthpieces, barrels, necks, etc., too.

=========

Groove also mentions something that I was theorizing: the 5hz difference can be compensated for by the player. I mentioned on another thread that the Buffet S1, S2 and S3 were primarily available as A=442hz instruments, which is the European Orchestra standard. However, you can take an A=440hz instrument and play it at A=442hz with little trouble -- I've checked it with a Korg electronic tuner on my wife's 1981 Selmer Omega. Now, if you're going from A=440 (low pitch) to A=457hz (high pitch), that's much, much more problematic, as you're talking almost a half step.

Additionally, I read, during my research on that article for SOTW, that the reason why you wanted a LOWER pitch standard really was because of the strings: you don't have to tighten the strings so much, thus saving wear on the stringed instrument.

Here's an article about the creation of the Low Pitch, A=440hz standard: http://www.wam.hr/Arhiva/US/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf. It mentions that the 1859 French Standard (A=435hz) was taken at 59 degrees F and the newer pitch (1896, A=439hz) standard was taken at 68 degrees F. Low pitch (A=440hz) was a compromise reached in 1939.

 

[Carl H.]

Many "A=435" instruments play very well alongside "A=440" instruments. Today, it really doesn't matter what pitch is used to tune an orchestra. The actual playing pitch usually rises. We often blame the strings, but the entire ensemble will find its own level. The fact that volume levels are also rising makes the situation even worse, because wind instruments except flute go flat as volume increases. Good players often tune a little high so that they can sound good at the climax of a piece.

As strings get further along during a performance, their pitch drops (heat lets the string stretch and the act of bowing pulls on the string, both dropping pitch). In combination with being tuned to perfect fifths by the majority of the players, the farther away from the tuning note, the more "out of tune" the string is to the initial tuning pitch. On the violin there is one string above the tuning pitch, and two below the pitch. The "G" is considerably off from the tuning A. You may notice this whenever a composer has scored for the violins to play their lowest note - the open G string. It will sound quite off from the rest of the instrument which is tuned on the fly by the player to keep with the general intonation of the ensemble. The Violas are even worse as their lowest string is a C below the violins lowest note (this is partially to blame for some viola jokes).

See the second portion of your quote which I have highlighted. This is why the strings may get blamed for going sharp - they match the prevailing pitch which is generally led by the trumpets followed by the flutes. This leads to the open G being even more offensively out of tune.

I've played principal clarinet, timpani and violin in very good ensembles. Violin, while being the hardest to play, is easiest to compensate tuning on. Clarinet pretty much takes care of itself. Once you have a playable setup there isn't that much you can do about playing any sharper than you can play. Timpani while having its own technical issues with technique and the drums themself are the most difficult to play in tune in an ensemble. You need to anticipate the next entrance you will make and where pitch will be at that point. You can't just put it on the tuning pitch of "A" and count on the ensemble being there when they arrive at the timpani's entrance. Most of my career as a timpanist was on the Dresden system (Crude ratcheting tuning mechanism. Used because it doesn't move when engaged unless released). I never played with the mechanism engaged unless I physically could not hold the pedals (multiple pitches, beyond which you need more than 2 feet). I would ride the pedals to keep in tune with the ensemble. If I don't, the best example I could give you of what happens is the old Masterpiece Theater theme recording used on air all those years (do they still use that recording?). It makes me cringe every time I watch it knowing the last cadence is approaching.