Bass clarinet repad with resos (?) and off-center bell pad (!)

Hi,
my bass carinet will need a repad soon and I would like also resolve the bell pad which is off-center, looks like the arm cup is too short and the pad never seal well because there is not enough edge for adjustments;
here is some picture
https://picasaweb.google.com/107048...ClarinetBellPad?authkey=Gv1sRgCIiKjZzM3saGJw#
any suggestion?
For a quick but good solution I thought to use a Conn res-o-pad which is shouldered and it will gain almost 1,5 millimeters covering better the tone hole (?)

Another question is about the pad thickness, I saw a pad set for a Selmer low C and they has a thickness of 4mm except for the smallest 2 which are 3,5mm
Could I use the same thickness on my Selmer low Eb?
If yes I'm very tempted to use 4mm saxophone pads with the central hole and add metal rivets and convex discs (like the low C set) according to the tonehole diameter (I think 3mm less than the tonehole diameter)
Musiccenter is my source for materials

Thanks for help and suggestions
 
Considering that the tonehole rim and the key cup sould be parallel when the pad is closed, I'd opt for a thicker pad as well, unless you're really adventurous and would bend the arm open so that it has a larger radius.
 
I've played a couple bass clarinets with resonator pads, but I felt that the tone quality issuing from the holes with resonators was too different from the others (only the largest pads were so fitted, probably due to a supply of suitable resonators more than any other reason) that it detracted from the overall effect.

As for a poorly fitted bell key, if it is easy to get it corrected, I would bother. (I've never in my life seen a professional quality Selmer horn fitted up this way - are we sure it is a "Selmer" and not a "Selmer USA" instrument?) If it is going to require replacement for the key, and it is not an artist horn, I would not bother. Unless you are involved in covering A bass clarinet parts in an orchestra, you will never need to play low Eb. In a concert band setting, you will encounter the low Eb more, but even on the best of instruments, the note has a "woofy" quality to it, so the gains would not be worth the expense.

(If you use the bass clarinet for jazz, only you will be able to make the decision. Most jazz bass clarinet playing I have heard (or done) wasn't all that low Eb centric anyway.)

I prefer the German approach to bass clarinet making, where the bottom-most note sounds from a tone hole, not from the bell. It's also the reason I like full Boehm clarinets, which have the extra semi-tone just like the bass - the E and B on these are far clearer/"less muddy" sounding than on a regular instrument.

(Just the other day, after milking the Reed 3 clarinet solos in Seussical - The New Musical for all they were worth, another player asked me how I got my B in the staff to come out so clearly. His face sank when I pointed out the "secret" extra tone hole at the bottom end of the horn - he probably thought it was my ligature or something.)
 
I prefer the German approach to bass clarinet making, where the bottom-most note sounds from a tone hole, not from the bell. It's also the reason I like full Boehm clarinets, which have the extra semi-tone just like the bass - the E and B on these are far clearer/"less muddy" sounding than on a regular instrument.
FWIW my new Jupiter has the Low Eb on the body, and the bell appears to be a "regular" Eb-on-Bell type, but with no key attached, and the bell hole now serves as a vent.
 
To actually extend the key to be more centered there are two options.
One unsolder the key cup from key arm and resolder them (with silver solder/braze, not soft solder) with the key extended further out. It might leave a small gap at the back of the cup, near the arm, but no big deal I think in this case.
Another is to cut the key arm and (silver) solder an extension.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods.
But it's very possible that there are ways around this.

For a quick but good solution I thought to use a Conn res-o-pad which is shouldered and it will gain almost 1,5 millimeters covering better the tone hole (?)
It depends on the thickness. Sometimes shouldered pads help for something like this exactly, but if they are too thick it can be a problem. Even if they are the same thicknes as non-shouldered pads, they might not reach to the back of the key cup because of the bigger diameter's thickness and be too thick. Maybe you can order one or two included in whatever order you make and check, could be worth it.

Considering that the tonehole rim and the key cup sould be parallel when the pad is closed, I'd opt for a thicker pad as well, unless you're really adventurous and would bend the arm open so that it has a larger radius.
Another option, which I would probably try, is a thinner pad floated in an angle in comparison with the key cup. This would allow the key to close more, which means the front will cover more than before. Idea is to add travel.
Personally I'd definitely see if bending the key to fit a thinner pad to allow more travel is an option. Usually it is and won't create any problems. It depends on the key hinge operates, though from what is possible to see in the photos it seems like it's operating in a way that would allow it on this instrument.

I've never in my life seen a professional quality Selmer horn fitted up this way - are we sure it is a "Selmer" and not a "Selmer USA" instrument?
I don't know what this one is, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see this type of "quality" on a Selmer Paris instrument. I've seen far worse.

Unless you are involved in covering A bass clarinet parts in an orchestra, you will never need to play low Eb. In a concert band setting, you will encounter the low Eb more, but even on the best of instruments, the note has a "woofy" quality to it, so the gains would not be worth the expense.
Whether someone will see a low Eb or not, or rather will need/want to play a low Eb or not, is a more open issue. I can't say someone will and won't see it in orchestra. I see it and play both in an orchestra and not playing in an orchestra.

If you use the bass clarinet for jazz, only you will be able to make the decision. Most jazz bass clarinet playing I have heard (or done) wasn't all that low Eb centric anyway.
I agree with "only you will be able to make the decision". I play classical music, mostly chamber, occasionally orchestra, some jazz and a lot of improvised music. I use the low Eb note very often.

Jupiter has the Low Eb on the body, and the bell appears to be a "regular" Eb-on-Bell type, but with no key attached, and the bell hole now serves as a vent.
Several models has this vent hole and my impression is it does make the lowest note more even in comparison with the rest of the low notes. But I've played some instruments without the vent hole which have a pretty nice sounding lowest note too.
 
Well, I don't claim to be the world's expert in these matters. But, I do have a touch of experience acquired here and there.

(My very first bass was a Buffet in A, inherited from my paternal grandfather. An Albert system horn, it proved to be a problem for teachers everywhere, and my parents unwisely traded it for a "real" (read, "Boehm") clarinet before I hit high school. Incidentally, it only ranged to low E.)

I have bought quite a few Selmer (Paris) horns (say twenty in good round numbers), of the clarinet, bass clarinet, and saxophonic varieties, over the past forty years, most of them new stock purchased from a selection of like instruments. In that grouping (including all of the horns that I tried before purchasing that one "special" instrument), I encountered precisely one manufacturing defect out of the box, and that pertained to the stitching on a Traypack case.

Intonation problems here and there, of course - no instrument is completely immune to those issues. But, as for fabrication, quality of materials, and fit and finish, no - back in my buying days.

However...

Recently, I made an appointment to view the latest line of Selmer bass clarinets. I've had my primary bass since 1971 or so, and I worry about it cracking.) The horn that I tried was a demonstrator, and the materials and fit and finish on it were just fine.

The design, however, was lacking. Too heavy (as a result of a huge number of rod keys, rather than the classic trill and lower joint key designs), and a couple of weird key linkages for the left hand little finger that were just not working, for whatever reason. It's the first Selmer instrument that I gave the "do not buy" sticker to in all of my years of association with the brand.

But, perhaps my overall experience was atypical.

And student horns, on the other hand...well, quality issues there are best left undiscussed unless you are presented with one.

As for music, jazz is what it is. Some love it, others detest it. Most of the jazz crowd that I run with are fond of using the "extreme" notes on their horns, both high and low. If any of them were into the bass clarinet, I'm sure I'd be hearing low Ebs every little whipstitch. Thankfully, they are either too poor or too cheap to buy one, so they stick to the sax (invariably the poor, oft abused tenor).

(I don't ever loan out my treasured extended range bass, this for fear that they might get some ideas about working around low C...)

As for classical and other forms, I've played everything from Mozart to Lukas Foss. With the salient exception of Wagner, whose works in their original forms are not all that common outside of high concert halls, I have had occasion to use the low Eb in perhaps twenty to thirty compositions, almost always when the original work called for a bass clarinet in A. The low Eb is there for just that very purpose, and most casual, non-Wagnerian operatic bass clarinet players are going to die and go to their well deserved place in heaven without ever needing the low Eb.

With modern music, it's bound to be a bit more common. However, the casual player is just as unlikely to encounter much of this, since most non-professional orchestras shy away from performing "new" works.

Even ol' Lukas didn't want me down there in one of his improvisational works that he conducted back in the 1970's - he told me so himself when I asked him for his parameters (since the chart gave very little guidance to begin with). I kind of cheated and snuck a little into the cadenza at the end, where everyone and sundry was (in effect) performing the same florid melody line (playing the same written pitches) but each in the key of their particular instruments.

So, jazz and "modern" art music, yes. And, Wagner and a couple of the Russian and Slavic composers as well. And, God help you if you don't have it in concert band music - I seem to remember playing low Eb in every other piece that we performed that wasn't a transcription of Rossini or Beethoven.

In fact, I'd be far more worried if the bass in question didn't range up to high F or F# without speaking or pitch problems. For some reason, I've been seeing a lot more written notes well above the staff these past few years, both in modern "art" music (I still do some classical subbing) and in Broadway shows. I'm probably moving in the wrong circles these days...

One area where my low Eb key gets considerable work is when transposing baritone charts "on the fly" in pop music. When all of the other saxes are on flute or clarinet and the baritone chart is marked "blend" or piano, it's a sign that the arranger thought that a bass clarinet would be hard to come by in a typical group instrumentation. I just grab my bass, use the classic "Eb horn to Bb pitched clarinet" transposition trick, and go to town. I imagine that most don't bother with this, though. In fact, on used charts where a bass clarinet is called for, I almost always find that some previous baritone player has gone ahead and penned (it's never in pencil) in the pitches for the baritone, thus making them both hard to read. Bozos...
 
No one can dispute what you found unless they've tried the same instruments that you have. Also no one really knows how you checked those instruments.

FWIW, I've tried about ten new model (Privilege) Selmer bass clarinets and at least that many older professional models (35/37 and older). I've checked the mechanisms thoroughly including disassembling of about 1/4 of them I'd guess. I could write several pages of things I found wrong. Just a few examples of problems caused by design and manufacturing (as opposed to problems hapenning from use and normal wear):
  • Binding keys when rod screws are tightened
  • Poor linkage design causing problems
  • Bad choice of linkage materials
  • Bad alignment of key cups with tone holes (like the one in the first post, also on the same key exactly on the last Privilege model I saw!)
  • Binding register mechanism
  • Bad shape and design of key arms
  • Way too much free play on several keys
  • On a few months old one... the neck socket for the mouthpiece fell off the neck during a concert! This bass clarinet was chosen in Selmer's factory in Paris BTW
Just a few examples and just on the professional models bass clarinets. I remember only a few Selmer bass clarinets with very few of these or other issues. Most have several issues. I found even more issues on other Selmer instruments like saxophones (some the same, some different). The problems you found on that new Selmer bass clarinet are similar to many problems I found on both new and older Selmers. Some sounded like adjsutment issues that can be fixed. In some ways at least I found the design actually an improvement in comaprison with solder models, but in some ways it wasn't good at all. I found too often an instrument feels fine but you find a lot of issues once you dig deeper into it (like the alignment problem originally shown in this thread).

As far as playing a low note or not, my point is that it is for the player to determine. I certainly don't know if someone will need/want to play them or not. I simply don't know what they intend to play, or if they might change or add to what they are playing now. I could give a bunch of example of where I used a certain low note or not, but it is up to the player to decide whether anything is worth it to them or not.
 
Thanks !

Because I need something from MusicMedic I will try some Conn reso pad or ask how much is the thickness... I agree with metal works like to work on the cup to center better the tone hole instead of to cut the arm and add an extend...
If the shouldered pad will not fit then I will use a conventional pad and try to set it at the best

I play almost exclusively jazz and usually I don't begin every phrase from the low Eb but I would like to have all the keywork in good working order, I really don't like to see how that pad close...

Ehm... I'm pretty sure that I have a Selmer Paris instrument and
I'm not so shocked how the pad is fitted on the bell, I saw a soprano sax from mid '80 with more than one key with this problem (arm too short)...
I've made a video and so you can see all my clarinet
https://picasaweb.google.com/107048...key=Gv1sRgCIqxzMLGt9-K6QE#5602952869402707426

Any suggestions regarding the use of 4mm thick pads with resonators for repad on this model?
 
I've repadded my Bundy with plain (no rivets, no resos) bass clarinet pads from Pisoni/Music Center. But as you're ordering from MusicMedic, do also order a sax shim (0.45mm) and a suitable Bass Clarinet (Roo)pad (3.5mm), the combination of them would get you near those 4mm as well. (I personally don't think that a reso would do much at this diameter...)
 
I would like to see a photo of the key at its hinge to better access what might be done short of re-manufacturing the key to get the cup to project more past the edge of the tone hole.
 
The hinge posts for that key are soldered to the metal bell's body reciever. Just re-solder them in the correct position. The body lever linkage should accommodate that small shift without problem.
 
I've never in my life seen a professional quality Selmer horn fitted up this way
I'm just working on another Selmer Paris pofessional model bass clarinet and there is misalignment on the bell key. Most of the misalignment is side-to-side which is easy enough to correct, but there is front-to-back misalignment too. Tomorrow my student is coming with the new Privilege model and I will try to remember taking a photo of its bell key, which has terrible alignment.

For this instrument design (it's an older one) bending the key hinge front-to-back is tricky but could be possible, at least with some modifying of the key arm and/or possibly curving the S bend on the key arm more.

As far as resoldering the posts, because of their shape and the way they are attached, it is not at all as simple as just unsoldering them and resoldering in a different position. With this design I wouldn't recommend resoldering as that would require a thinner pad and probably bending too anyway (the back would hit first). Looks like the same can be achieved without resoldering with a tlo less work.
 
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