Oops, they did it again (aka, Buffet sells themselves. Again)

abadcliche said:
But I would be upset if one of the last old-timey saxophone makers- one who survived the great depression, WWII, and being on the wrong side of the curtain at the wrong time- were to go under for reasons that could be fixed if they were owned by someone who actually gave a @%$# about saxophones.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more Matt. I am absolutely sick about this. (BTW, I wrote about the "new & improved" JK yesterday in my blog.) I honestly can't believe this happened to them. I wonder what Gerhard Keilwerth's thoughts on this would be--if he were still alive.

On a related, but vintage note... I thought Matt, you'd be interested in finding out I picked up a really stunning JK alto Toneking that matches my tenor. It is also from 1957; is also stencilled with the name Jubilee; and is only a 400 serial #'s different from the tenor I have. It belonged to a colleague of mine who dabbles in used horns to supplement his playing and teaching income. Its original Lucite angel wing is broken off behind the low C key, but that's the only damage to the horn. So I bit the bullet, and ordered replacement metal angel wings and pant guards for both the alto and the tenor from Germany. They should be here any day now.
 
We might be able to put together a proposal to buy Keilwerth. I'll play the lottery tonight ....
 
The entire marketing aspect of this should be interesting in the next year.

As I also sarcastically mentioned to a fellow repairguy on his facebook page .... basically about the Buffet sax and Keilwerth sax line marriage. How the JK is a buffet and vice versa in a sense as they are now the same company.

I'm curious now what is going to happen to Keilwerth's sax line. As as know Buffet also has their sax line which also sells a JK horn. BUt we know Buffet's other horns are asian made.

They really need JK to have a strong line (pro to student) with very strong marketing behind them. To differentiate their line they have stuck with the RTH (Rolled Tone Hole - well, kinda with RTH rings) But they really need to have the entire line to give students (and future players) something to move up in a line - instead of of move "to" from another pro brand.

like clarinets .. they buy a student, then intermediate then pro model.
Many people also look at Selmer USA and Selmer Paris as about the same company (though we know better) but many think there is that student, int and pro line there too.

Also with Buffet models, as they grow they need to differentiate their product line from JK so that they don't eat each other's sales (which it is kinda now). Buffet used to have some awesome horns but few played them as few knew about them (Super Dyna-Action, etc)

And on top of it, I know this is blasphemy but JK needs to have a mk VI(ish) clone tonally. Unfortunately that is that market baseline (like R13 clarinets) and they should have something in that category.

I'm a JK fan as I grew up in "Couf"-land but I also play Selmer as the selmer core tone is awesome to my ears.

I hope this is more than just a cash infusion, and I hope that marketing steps up to the plate.
 
Last edited:
I for one wouldn't mind buying JK (and the Buffet Group as a whole)

But from what I've read about the german labor markets (for JK) and the high cost of labor it in itself causes a problem. Though I have not done in in-depth analysis (part of my side jobs is to do business/marketing analysis so I love looking at this stuff when I have time).

It is interesting. Because back in the 1970's Mr. Couf balked at the high price of the "student" Royalist and Royalist I models because the pro line wasn't much more $$. That is why they reverse engineered and made the Royalist II in Elkhart ... for a lower priced student model.

Keilwerth needs that student, int, pro line badly. Luckily my son is playing a ST IV, though in a few years he is going to upgrade to a (my) Superba 1. My oldest son started on my Royalist II.

Buffet on the otherhand, has an intermediate horn .. or is it a pro model .. the 400 line ?? I haven't looked in a while because I was disappointed that they did not restart a french made pro horn.

The interesting thing is that I'm a Buffet and Keilwerth fan.
disclaimer: I also like the Selmer Paris and Yamahas horns.
 
Last edited:
Buffet's not updated their website in along while. A quick run-down:

* Keilwerth made the Buffet Expression horns. SX90 with different engraving.
* Buffet had the S3 Prestige horns as their pro model for a long while. At some point in the last few years, the S3 Prestige copper horns were replaced by the Keilwerth CX90.
* Buffet has the 100 and 400 series. Both are made in China or Taiwan. The 100's the student model.
* The first Amatis were made from Kohlert bodies and Keilwerth bodies, possibly keywork, too. Fast-forward a lot of years and they made the Keilwerth EX (2nd generation) horns. Amati may have done the final assembly for the SX90s.

So, Amati buying Keilwerth? I don't see why not. Unfortunately, the last time I played a "recent" Amati tenor, an ATS-61, I was highly unimpressed. At the time, the ATS-61 was their pro model. They now have 33, 63, 73 and 83, with the 73 and 83 being the pro line.

I don't think Amati is really known as a high-end saxophone outfit. I think some people incorrectly associate Amati stringed instruments with Amati.cz (I happen to know about Amati strings from anime, oddly enough). Different Amatis. Of course, you might also have someone with an Amati sax that's slightly post-WWII that's really a Keilwerth or Kohlert incorrectly assuming that the current Amati company made them.
 
pete said:
I don't think Amati is really known as a high-end saxophone outfit.
Click to expand...
That's why I meant they could do well with an upscale brand in their portfolio. Buy their foot into the pro market door.
Better have different brands to serve different markets than (like Buffet) selling Asian stencils just in order to have some xyz level offering.
 
The economics of making instruments in Europe worry me. Somehow R&C continue, but with pro level horns only (I want!!!). But trying to make student horns, when you're competing against Chinese imports selling at a labour cost of maybe a day's wages here..... Guess the comparison holds good for the US as well.

I'd hazard a guess that at the moment the only viable way is to sell Asian horns at the bottom/mid range (with quality control) and make the pro stuff locally. But as more Asian makers move upmarket, like Yani did over the years, we'll still see European horns being undercut by good/better horns.

To me the only way we can survive outside the far east is to innovate. But even then, manufacturing will be cheaper in Asia. But what innovation are we seeing in sax design that's actually catching on? Kanggaroo leather pads? Articulated G#.... About all the real innovation is the plastic saxes, and that hasn't exactly inspired the market. Surwe new pad systems, but how many have really caught on? But saxes aren't alone. There's little innovation in most musical instruments these days. Just refinement and cost cutting.

As for Amati taking on JK.... Well in many ways it'd be a return home, but the JK fans would see it negatively. And there's still the issue of the way Keilwerth were forced out of the country - and then how Amati were forced to stop using the Kohlert and Keilwerth names.
 
The last time I looked at the JK website it was functional (I don't think it's worked for many months now since the Buffet buyout last year).

I recall the SX-90R, SX, EX and ST lines.
From reading on SOTW only the 90R exists nowadays. And the list of available finished had been cut down drastically.

I cannot figure out why the transition from true RTH to RTH-rings though. Other than maybe the equipment was wearing out and the cost to replace was outweighed by the cost of RTH-ringed equipment.

Since then PMauriat is doing true RTH I believe
 
kevgermany said:
Somehow R&C continue, but with pro level horns only (I want!!!). But trying to make student horns, when you're competing against Chinese imports selling at a labour cost of maybe a day's wages here..... Guess the comparison holds good for the US as well.
Click to expand...
Well, if we're talking Italian, you've also got Borgani, Orsi and Grassi. I'm not sure if Grassi's doing anything, anymore -- I can't find a website. Borgani and Orsi are fairly high-end, though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom