Overtones Question

Stephen

Stephen

I've been practicing overtones on the alto sax today. For some fundamentals, I find it easier to get the 2nd harmonic (the 5th above the octave) rather than the octave note (1st harmonic).

For example, when I play Bb as the fundametal, I get a 2nd octave F (5th line) and can;t get the first octave Bb.

This varies: low B gives me the octave B and the 5th above it (F#). Low C gives me the octave note and the 5th above (G above the staff). Low C# also gives me the octave and 2nd harmonic.

Low D only gives me the 1st harmonic - the octave D. This is the same for all the other notes up to A, and I can't get anything at 3rd line B or above.

Any thoughts on what's happening (or not happening)? Thanks for any suggestions.
 
For different notes on any given horn, there are different impedance profiles: in other words the relative intensities of partials. For some notes it is possible that it might be easier to sound a higher partial than a lower one--but that will also depend on some extent to the mpc/reed and the player's embouchure.
 
One way to learn the "taste" of the harmonic is to first hold the note with its regular fingering and then quickly switch to the fingering of the low note whose harmonic you are trying to play. Once you get the harmonic, hold it as a long tone. Then you repeat this until you can voice and play the harmonic without "cheating".

I have also found that singing or humming the pitch and then blowing that pitch on your airstream like an airy sounding whistle helps to get a particular overtone to sound.
 
Thanks to Kymarto and John for both a theoretical and a practical approach to this issue. I'll work on it! :)
 
So if we are talking about ways to cheat, play a low C and pop the B finger/key (open then close) and your first overtone will sound, then apply a slow crescendo and then decrescendo to learn and feel the sound. Do this a couple of times. Then for the next overtone, pop the D finger/key and for alto, tenor, and bari (for me) the second overtone will sound. Over time you will be able to voice these overtones without the cheat. But to really make progress, you'll want to read Sigurd Rascher's, Top Tones for Saxophone.
 
Gandalfe said:
So if we are talking about ways to cheat, play a low C and pop the B finger/key (open then close) and your first overtone will sound, then apply a slow crescendo and then decrescendo to learn and feel the sound. Do this a couple of times. Then for the next overtone, pop the D finger/key and for alto, tenor, and bari (for me) the second overtone will sound. Over time you will be able to voice these overtones without the cheat. But to really make progress, you'll want to read Sigurd Rascher's, Top Tones for Saxophone.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the cheat tips - I have ordered the book. Much appreciated :)
 
Also, keep well in mind that every manufacturer's horn may respond differently. For that matter, depending on the state of maintenance of your instrument, every individual horn, even of the same model from the same manufacturer, may respond differently. You have to feel your way, even with the book given as a guide.

I had a altisimo A in a rock tune (Trickle, Trickle, part of a solo in the midst of all the doo-wop singing, and try as I would, I could not get the tone to consistently sound. I had two experienced sax players working with me on it for a hour before we finally gave up.

Nowadays, all I do is reach up to the second "high octave key" on the wind synth. Easy-peasy...
 
SOTSDO said:
...try as I would, I could not get the tone to consistently sound. I had two experienced sax players working with me on it for a hour before we finally gave up.
Click to expand...

**Strangely enough I have had 2 experienced sax players/teachers working with me for a year and try as I might (at least 2 hours practice a day, every day) I'm still not able to get a consistent sound. :(

SOTSDO said:
Nowadays, all I do is reach up to the second "high octave key" on the wind synth. Easy-peasy...
Click to expand...

Maybe I should put an EWI on my Christmas wish list. Here's a shot I took of Courtney Pine playing one...

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​


** slightly self-deprecating remark: There's no doubt I'm improving, but it seems like a long haul.
 
If a ligature's only function is to look "cool", then a tasteful single or double wrapping of barbed wire would suffice.

Wait - that may have been too harsh. Perhaps his effort was to absorb the drool running down the body of the "horn". If so, that device would work very well.

One holiday season, I outfitted our saxes and trombones with battery powered "twinkle light" sets from our local IKEA store's "As-Is" department. We received more commentary about the lighting effect than about the music (which, for a pick-up Christmas affair, was pretty damn'd good).

Philistines…
 
It's not a ligature on the Courtney Pine photo. He's playing an EWI (e-wee). The mouthpiece (or "bite piece" - the teeth usually hold both sides of the piece) is slotted into the front of the EWI. It's a hair band, normally used to tie up the dread locks, just there for safe keeping and "show".
 
You rang, Terry?

As far as overtones are concerned, I don't remember being able to do many (bari sax). I can say that my college instructor, Dr. Laurence Wyman, used to impress me and his students by playing a keyless horn quite well.

As far as EWIs are concerned, I just recently found out that the Akai USB and 4000 ones don't have real keys: they're just pressure-sensing points. The Yamaha WX-series all have real keys (I owned a WX11). Spongy keys, mind you, but they're real. Doing a brief Google, Courtney Pine uses the Akai 3020. That's been discontinued. There's now a 5000 model. I'm fairly sure that all those also use the "pressure-sensing" thing, because they use the phrase "touch sensors," instead of "keys."

Neither the Yamaha or Akai EWIs use ligatures and neither do overtones or have a need to do overtones :).

One of the uses The only real use I had for overtones was to make my horn sound more "string-like"/"dirty" when I was playing cello parts, but I could also accomplish that by making my oral cavity a bit larger or "fuller." I don't remember any of my instructors really highlighting the use of overtones, nor prescribing practice time for them.
 
Being very bad at anything above high F# on both tenor and baritone, I feal at ease to state that, like it or not, a decent command of the overtone register is a must for any modern improviser in the blues or fusion of jazz-rock, you name it, domains. Most "straight" (if that means anything any more) jazz players are nowadays also expected to navigate in the upper atmosphere. This said, do hear a great example of the tasty use of overtone by my all-time bari favorite, Nick Brignola.
Enjoy
J
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZGDN13meto&list=PL21A377E058EE0E04&index=5
 
The keywork on a Yamaha EWI is bad enough as it is; the touchpad system seen on the "instrument" above would be agony for me to play. But, then again, I'm used to some 'feedback' coming through my fingers as to where the key is currently located (so the tongue action can be coordinated with the fingers, etc.), so maybe it's just me.

Or maybe it's not. Most of the people I have heard performing on an EWI are (compared to performers on regular wind instruments) rather sloppy and imprecise. It may be that they are not as good as a typical sax or clarinet player, or it may be that they think that normal musical standards for what they are playing just aren't that important.

Regardless, I don't see the pure EWI crowd producing a Marcel Mule anytime soon.

Oh, and one of the major flaws of all of the EWIs that I have tried to date is that they do not sit well in the hand. The Yamaha versions, the best as far as key functions are concerned, are worse than the old (and much beloved) Casio DH-100, a nasty little triangular spur that offers no comfort nor a good point to balance. That, and the slippery little "mouthpiece" make for an unpleasant playing experience.

And then there's the slew of buttons installed on the back of the thing. I'm no expert in the operation of the Yamaha "stick", and tend to restrict my actions to the keywork on the front plus two of the four octave switches. However, I occasionally bump one of the many buttons on the back (when picking it up or setting it down), and those accidents invariable send me off into multiple patch land, where I am suddenly playing a whole orchestra instead of one instrument.

The solution offered by my friend who is loaning me the thing is to switch off and on the synthesizer module. That's far easier than trying to figure out which switch does what in the heat of the moment. (I have a "smash board" to change from baritone to alto to clarinet to bass clarinet, so the switches on the back serve no purpose for me.) There may be a way to disable all of those extra buttons, but the manual is too impenetrable for either of us to deal with.
 
Jacques5646 said:
I feal at ease to state that, like it or not, a decent command of the overtone register is a must for any modern improviser in the blues or fusion of jazz-rock, you name it, domains. Most "straight" (if that means anything any more) jazz players are nowadays also expected to navigate in the upper atmosphere.
Click to expand...

+1 on the altissimo requirements for blues, rock, R&B, fusion, and other related styles. Until last fall I played those styles exclusively for the last 20 years, and my altissimo register always getting a workout, since it was always in demand. Bands just assumed I could play it. If I couldn't have, I likely wouldn't have been hired by some of them, since I was in the stratosphere with the lead guitar.

Now I play tenor in a 17-piece big band (swing band, you know the kind I mean, WWII, Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller stuff, etc. etc.). Altissimo not really required. My bari gets a work out in a classical orchestra. Again, no altissimo required. My overtone chops have definitely suffered as a result.
 
Oooh. I get to touch on both subjects in the thread :).

Regarding altissimo, specifically, Helen, Jaques, et al, does it make a difference to be able to do a full series of overtones if you can hit all those altissimo note if you use a fingering for them? I'm curious because I've mainly played low instruments throughout my playing career -- bari sax, bass clarinet, contrabass clarinet -- and, as mentioned, I never had much need for extreme altissimo. When I've had to, I did learn fingerings and was able to play those notes. Are we talking about two completely different things or two different ways of getting at the same result?

Regarding the EWI balance, the balance was definitely off on the WX11 I had, but I would wonder if you could correct that balance by putting weights on the horn someplace. They wouldn't even have to be big weights. Maybe something like what fishermen use. (I think Yamaha would argue that the reason why there are balance issues is because they just wanted the thing to weigh as little as possible.)

Speaking of EWI, though, I have noticed a lot of performances where I can hear an audible "step" between notes. I don't know if this is as much a learning thing on the part of the performer or it's inherent to the instrument. I'll also note that I haven't listened to many recordings using the Synthephone, which is an actual saxophone with electronics added to it.
 
Regarding the balance issue, I think that the simple correction for same on the Yamaha at least would be to provide a proper thumb rest. I note that it is not integral to the body of the horn (which would be easy to do with a clamshell moulding like the body of an EWI), but rather attached with screws. Someone (not me) could gin up a proper clarinet-style thumbrest to be attached.

The Yamaha that I am using is so sensitive to rolling out of my hand that just the slightest over-pressure on the left hand little finger keys (G#, C#, low B) is enough to start it rotating.
 
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