Partially untrue. Wood has the capacity to absorb more oil than it needs, and this has been scientifically proven. Eventually it will restore itself (partially) if it has been over oiled but it's never worth the risk. If you insist, I cannot stop you from taking those risks, only head a warning as I've witnessed too many tragedies of other people going about the same practice thinking those same things.
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- Thread starter kymarto
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Partially untrue. Wood has the capacity to absorb more oil than it needs, and this has been scientifically proven. Eventually it will restore itself (partially) if it has been over oiled but it's never worth the risk. If you insist, I cannot stop you from taking those risks, only head a warning as I've witnessed too many tragedies of other people going about the same practice thinking those same things.
By the way - a snippet from the article I linked to earlier in this thread. I highly advise you to take this expert's advice as I strongly believe his same practices and knowledge to be 100% legitimate. If you have not read the article, please do.
"Bear in mind that its unlikely your instrument will fall apart if you miss out an oiling or two - its really a preventative and preservative technique. If your instrument is very old and hasn't been oiled for many years then you may need to oil it VERY lightly once a week for a month or so. Don't try to do it all at once - the stresses it can impose on the wood may lead to it splitting!"
"Bear in mind that its unlikely your instrument will fall apart if you miss out an oiling or two - its really a preventative and preservative technique. If your instrument is very old and hasn't been oiled for many years then you may need to oil it VERY lightly once a week for a month or so. Don't try to do it all at once - the stresses it can impose on the wood may lead to it splitting!"
I'm not advocating oiling an instrument until it drips, but you really don't want the micropores, once filled with the natural oils of the living tree (and now dry and empty), to constantly be expanding and contracting by absorbing moisture thru capillary action, and then immediately losing it via evaporation.
The problem is not only the cycling, but the speed of the cycles. Every time that bore gets wet when you play, it expands as fast or faster than when you oil it. At least the oil lingers, and does not evaporate right away like water, so what is the problem with oil, as long it isn't sitting on the surface of the wood?
The problem is not only the cycling, but the speed of the cycles. Every time that bore gets wet when you play, it expands as fast or faster than when you oil it. At least the oil lingers, and does not evaporate right away like water, so what is the problem with oil, as long it isn't sitting on the surface of the wood?
I live in Florida, where the air is humid, despite air conditioning. I have noticed that wooden instruments that live in Florida do not drink up bore oil because they are already hydrated with water.
Newly arrived instruments, such as my own bass clarinet, that came from Oklahoma, can absorb two or more liberal dosages of bore oil. Once the wood is stable in its new environment, oil will be absorbed at a rate dictated by the humidity of the area.
Newly arrived instruments, such as my own bass clarinet, that came from Oklahoma, can absorb two or more liberal dosages of bore oil. Once the wood is stable in its new environment, oil will be absorbed at a rate dictated by the humidity of the area.
Nice tries, kymarto.
Now, certainly, my point is, over contracting the wood with oil is just as damaging as over expanding/contracting with moisture! And believe me it's not as fast as you'd think it would be to put the wood at risk of splitting, although oiling may affect the contraction more slowly than with water expansion, it is still fast enough, regardless, especially taking an approach as quickly and heavily as you are.
Yes, groove, oil will do as you said, however, as I stated earlier, wood can absorb what it doesn't need. For instance, the wood doesn't know when it's "done", but it knows how much oil or water it can hold. It's capacity versus it's threshold of what it needs, are two different things entirely.
If you just take your time with the oiling, you'll be in better shape. I am by no means saying oiling is "bad" in any way, just that your over-zealous approach is extremely risky, and that you obviously don't have an understanding on how fast (or not so fast) the cycles have to be to stress the wood, nor how understated the expansion/contraction rate really has to be to stress it even more over time.
I'm "sorry", but that's how it works.
Now, certainly, my point is, over contracting the wood with oil is just as damaging as over expanding/contracting with moisture! And believe me it's not as fast as you'd think it would be to put the wood at risk of splitting, although oiling may affect the contraction more slowly than with water expansion, it is still fast enough, regardless, especially taking an approach as quickly and heavily as you are.
Yes, groove, oil will do as you said, however, as I stated earlier, wood can absorb what it doesn't need. For instance, the wood doesn't know when it's "done", but it knows how much oil or water it can hold. It's capacity versus it's threshold of what it needs, are two different things entirely.
If you just take your time with the oiling, you'll be in better shape. I am by no means saying oiling is "bad" in any way, just that your over-zealous approach is extremely risky, and that you obviously don't have an understanding on how fast (or not so fast) the cycles have to be to stress the wood, nor how understated the expansion/contraction rate really has to be to stress it even more over time.
I'm "sorry", but that's how it works.
Nice tries, kymarto.
Now, certainly, my point is, over contracting the wood with oil is just as damaging as over expanding/contracting with moisture! And believe me it's not as fast as you'd think it would be to put the wood at risk of splitting, although oiling may affect the contraction more slowly than with water expansion, it is still fast enough, regardless, especially taking an approach as quickly and heavily as you are.
Yes, groove, oil will do as you said, however, as I stated earlier, wood can absorb what it doesn't need. For instance, the wood doesn't know when it's "done", but it knows how much oil or water it can hold. It's capacity versus it's threshold of what it needs, are two different things entirely.
If you just take your time with the oiling, you'll be in better shape. I am by no means saying oiling is "bad" in any way, just that your over-zealous approach is extremely risky, and that you obviously don't have an understanding on how fast (or not so fast) the cycles have to be to stress the wood, nor how understated the expansion/contraction rate really has to be to stress it even more over time.
I'm "sorry", but that's how it works.
But the oil does not contract the wood, it expands it. And I certainly don't get what you mean by capacity vs. threshold of need. Can you overpaint or overlacquer your wood? It is basically the same thing: you are adding a protective coat to the wood, by filling the pores in the lignin with a less volatile substance than water. With shakuhachi flutes, which are very prone to cracking, we keep them oiled all the time. This is accepted practice to try to prevent or at least retard the possibility
I am simply putting a very light coat of oil in the bore when it looks dry. The wood has become much better looking and the oil absorption is much slower. Cracks generally happen when the inner part of the bore expands more than the outer part, which stresses the outside. This is why you can get hairline cracks that do not actually penetrate to the inside of the bore but are very visible on the outside. Oiling is mostly about keeping water out of the wood. Of course oiling expands the inside, but the point is that water also expands the inside, and you put a lot more water in the bore than oil every time you blow the horn. If the oil fills the spaces in the cellular structure that were once filled with natural oils and moisture, and keeps them filled, the water cannot get in.
I have been dealing with wood and bamboo musical instruments for the past 50 years or so, and never had one crack on me yet. Did I mention that the interior of the bore was in such bad condition that the wood was dust, and would turn my finger brown if I ran it around the interior? The exterior also looked dry. I lightly sanded the bore to get rid of the soft, powered wood, and lightly oiled the bore, waiting overnight each time. Believe it or not, I do have a feel for wood, and I think I know what is going on. I'll keep you posted
I don't care how long you've been dealing with it, you're wrong. And it looks like you cannot stand corrected and must stick with your outdated and disproven ways, and I will offer no further help given you cannot listen after this post.
Oiling is nothing like lacquer! I can't believe someone could do such a comparison. Oil expands and then contracts the bore, by the way. Causes an initial expansion, before the water has a chance to cycle, and then causes a massive contraction later on, over the course of either says or months based on your wood choice.
Babmboo is different than the woods in question used for modern reed/woodwind making, and thus absorbs oil in a different, safer way. That is a fact. And yes, you can over lacquer wood, my table had a dent the other day and I witnessed it happen when my husband lacquered it.
Listen to this, oil, when absorbed in to the bore, can either be beneficial or detrimental, if the instrument doesn't need to be oiled, it is detrimental. Your mode of thinking "how bad can it be" with your twisted logic, obviously shows that either you're lying about your experience or have simply forgotten what you thought you knew.
You do not have a feel for wood. You are a lucky, lucky man, and it is just a matter of time until you encounter a tragedy. I will take no part in this pathetic conversation in which you continue to stress your closed minded opinions against my fact based novels with the intention of providing help to one who simply may not be right when he thinks he is.
Ps. You should not be helping others with your opinions. They are dangerous. Maybe not for YOU, but for the next guy or girl who tries YOUR way. And I "like" how you changed what you said, you went from "oiling until it doesn't soak up overnight" to "a light coat when it looks dry", I find that interesting. In this case the latter is correct...
Oiling is nothing like lacquer! I can't believe someone could do such a comparison. Oil expands and then contracts the bore, by the way. Causes an initial expansion, before the water has a chance to cycle, and then causes a massive contraction later on, over the course of either says or months based on your wood choice.
Babmboo is different than the woods in question used for modern reed/woodwind making, and thus absorbs oil in a different, safer way. That is a fact. And yes, you can over lacquer wood, my table had a dent the other day and I witnessed it happen when my husband lacquered it.
Listen to this, oil, when absorbed in to the bore, can either be beneficial or detrimental, if the instrument doesn't need to be oiled, it is detrimental. Your mode of thinking "how bad can it be" with your twisted logic, obviously shows that either you're lying about your experience or have simply forgotten what you thought you knew.
You do not have a feel for wood. You are a lucky, lucky man, and it is just a matter of time until you encounter a tragedy. I will take no part in this pathetic conversation in which you continue to stress your closed minded opinions against my fact based novels with the intention of providing help to one who simply may not be right when he thinks he is.
Ps. You should not be helping others with your opinions. They are dangerous. Maybe not for YOU, but for the next guy or girl who tries YOUR way. And I "like" how you changed what you said, you went from "oiling until it doesn't soak up overnight" to "a light coat when it looks dry", I find that interesting. In this case the latter is correct...
Not to add any fire to an argument, but just to show how varied opinions are on the subject of oiling... I went to a local woodwind shop when I needed some key pads, and mentioned oiling. I live in Maryland, and the owner told me that in this state, he only worries about oiling his clarinet maybe 1x or 2x per year.
The lady working in the back on some saxophones chimed in, and informed me that oil does not cause wood to expand/shrink, but only keeps the fibers supple.
I finished the conversation with a simple: "I'll just take the pads please, thank you"
This is a shop that specializes in woodwinds and has been around for decades.
George
The lady working in the back on some saxophones chimed in, and informed me that oil does not cause wood to expand/shrink, but only keeps the fibers supple.
I finished the conversation with a simple: "I'll just take the pads please, thank you"
This is a shop that specializes in woodwinds and has been around for decades.
George
Well argument ended. We should no longer play a part in this silly little debate and use what works for us.
Kymarto, do what you'd like, I'm not your mother, and I'll do what I feel/know is right.
I appreciate your opinions. Do you have access to any studies to back them up?
Yes, but most of my opinions are experience based versus literature based, since the best way to learn is by seeing who's boss, the laws of physics, or some guy writing a book/blog/etc. I've tested a lot of different theories and I admit I almost killed an old Baptiste clarinet by over oiling a dry bore which craved moisture water-style versus oil. Wood does need a little water inside of it, just not too much.
I've been studying wood since the first grade (and am now in my late thirties) so although I haven't been in to instruments as long as you have, I've been studying the properties of woods for many reasons (including aircraft and even boat related wood subjects) very intensely through schooling and self taught experiences.
On the other hand, for bamboo, a lot of your opinions are spot on. It's generally OK to oil bamboo in a more aggressive manner due to it's more "sponge-like" properties, and my husband makes instruments of all different woods so he knows for a fact. He's been doing it a bit longer than I have, and given he turns his own instruments and has been taking care of them since kindergarten, I tend to trust him given I've seen his methods which are now my own, work.
For reference we were talking a bit about this conversation earlier and he says he never ever worried about oiling a healthy instrument more than once every two to three years, each treatment being about twice a month for one month, using less than a teaspoon of oil for each treatment. Antique instruments he owned were restored back to life beautifully using this method, except twice a year versus once every couple because of the desperate condition of the woods.
I've been studying wood since the first grade (and am now in my late thirties) so although I haven't been in to instruments as long as you have, I've been studying the properties of woods for many reasons (including aircraft and even boat related wood subjects) very intensely through schooling and self taught experiences.
On the other hand, for bamboo, a lot of your opinions are spot on. It's generally OK to oil bamboo in a more aggressive manner due to it's more "sponge-like" properties, and my husband makes instruments of all different woods so he knows for a fact. He's been doing it a bit longer than I have, and given he turns his own instruments and has been taking care of them since kindergarten, I tend to trust him given I've seen his methods which are now my own, work.
For reference we were talking a bit about this conversation earlier and he says he never ever worried about oiling a healthy instrument more than once every two to three years, each treatment being about twice a month for one month, using less than a teaspoon of oil for each treatment. Antique instruments he owned were restored back to life beautifully using this method, except twice a year versus once every couple because of the desperate condition of the woods.
Oiling the bore can be described this simply.
1. YMMV
2. Can be very risky
3. Can save your instrument
Also I suggest that the mentioned English horn was likely a victim of extreme moisture in which case the oiling was, obviously, beneficial. However for a more common case, of far less peril, would likely not yield the same results from such aggressive oiling.
My cases that I have stated in this thread are purely in relation to the common restoration of a vintage instrument in decent condition, not something that horribly desperate. Naylor quote suggests that aggressive oiling may have more benefits for a highly degraded wooden instrument, than for something like yours.
However, I must also suggest, if you really do insist on oiling so terribly aggressively, make sure that the instrument isn't truly DRY, as in lacking water at all. Oiling in that condition could and will, for some time, inhibit natural cycles altogether therefor inducing the risk of even more shock to the wood when playing continues, meaning that oil is (a. not a seal, (b. able to be over consumed without warning from the wood until disaster, (c. potentially detrimental given that wood NEEDS at least a microscopic amount of water in order to be, well, wood. The goal of pushing out so much water so fast, is dangerous to an instrument one way or another.
1. YMMV
2. Can be very risky
3. Can save your instrument
Also I suggest that the mentioned English horn was likely a victim of extreme moisture in which case the oiling was, obviously, beneficial. However for a more common case, of far less peril, would likely not yield the same results from such aggressive oiling.
My cases that I have stated in this thread are purely in relation to the common restoration of a vintage instrument in decent condition, not something that horribly desperate. Naylor quote suggests that aggressive oiling may have more benefits for a highly degraded wooden instrument, than for something like yours.
However, I must also suggest, if you really do insist on oiling so terribly aggressively, make sure that the instrument isn't truly DRY, as in lacking water at all. Oiling in that condition could and will, for some time, inhibit natural cycles altogether therefor inducing the risk of even more shock to the wood when playing continues, meaning that oil is (a. not a seal, (b. able to be over consumed without warning from the wood until disaster, (c. potentially detrimental given that wood NEEDS at least a microscopic amount of water in order to be, well, wood. The goal of pushing out so much water so fast, is dangerous to an instrument one way or another.
If you read through Naylor, you'll see he routinely advocates what you describe as "aggressive oiling" and worse, and seems to have had very good success with it.
After three or four light oilings and some runs through the bore with [HASHTAG]#1500[/HASHTAG] emery paper it is looking quite happy, so I will not oil again for a while. With careful inspection I found a hairline crack at the top tenon receiver (Schunda-style mpc) and the ring there was slightly loose, so I have fixed that. Also and old hairline crack, repaired, at the second body joint lower tenon. Both are stable. I am adding very narrow crescents to the A and B tone holes to bring them down slightly; otherwise the intonation is remarkably good. I'll try to post a sound file soon.
After three or four light oilings and some runs through the bore with [HASHTAG]#1500[/HASHTAG] emery paper it is looking quite happy, so I will not oil again for a while. With careful inspection I found a hairline crack at the top tenon receiver (Schunda-style mpc) and the ring there was slightly loose, so I have fixed that. Also and old hairline crack, repaired, at the second body joint lower tenon. Both are stable. I am adding very narrow crescents to the A and B tone holes to bring them down slightly; otherwise the intonation is remarkably good. I'll try to post a sound file soon.
Just an observation -
A few years back we bought a very old clarinet for our son from a lacal instrument maker who does a lot of work for the members of the orchestras around here. As seen it was not cracked, but had clearly not been played for many years. He explained in detail what he would do to bring the instrument up to playing (professional) condition. Part of the process was an extended soak for a few days in an oiling bath - total immersion.
When finished - no problems.
5 years later, with minimal maintenance - no problems (except son/father caused damage). Despite lack of care on my son's part. It's still tight, still plays well. and has had a lot of use.
We get temps ranging from -20 to + 35C. We have long hot summers, dry houses with good central heating. Wert cold winters.
So here, wooden instruments are normally given an aggressive oiling without problems. And it's done to orchestra/soloist level instruments. And here professional instruemn makers receive a very high level of training, based on techniques handed down from teh old Geman instrument builders.
ymmv
A few years back we bought a very old clarinet for our son from a lacal instrument maker who does a lot of work for the members of the orchestras around here. As seen it was not cracked, but had clearly not been played for many years. He explained in detail what he would do to bring the instrument up to playing (professional) condition. Part of the process was an extended soak for a few days in an oiling bath - total immersion.
When finished - no problems.
5 years later, with minimal maintenance - no problems (except son/father caused damage). Despite lack of care on my son's part. It's still tight, still plays well. and has had a lot of use.
We get temps ranging from -20 to + 35C. We have long hot summers, dry houses with good central heating. Wert cold winters.
So here, wooden instruments are normally given an aggressive oiling without problems. And it's done to orchestra/soloist level instruments. And here professional instruemn makers receive a very high level of training, based on techniques handed down from teh old Geman instrument builders.
ymmv
Cool. Since you're in Germany, what type of oil do/did you use? I have noticed that for other wooden instruments, Europeans seem to prefer paraffin oil over almond oil. I wonder if it's the same for clarinets. Their arguments seem to be based on possible rancidity of almond oil (though I have never experienced this). But I think it mostly comes down to availability and affordability, since my understanding is you can just walk into a pharmacy and they'll sell you paraffin oil. Here in the U.S., "paraffin oil" is very different and not meant to be taken internally.
George
Not sure, I'll try to remember to ask him next time I see him. I've got a couple of jobs for him to do, so it shouldn't be too long.