Tárogató Remanufactured Part 1

jbtsax

Distinguished Member
Distinguished Member
To understand the background that led up to this ambitious project one needs to read through this old thread

I am calling this thread Taragoto "remanufactured" instead of Tarogoto restored for reasons that will become obvious as one views the pictures.

Part 1 of the challenge has been to carefully clean and disassemble the instrument, access the condition of its parts, and to devise a plan of action.

The first few photos show the original condition of the tarogoto at the time I received it from Toby (kymarto). " . . .to call it crude is an understatement" were his exact words when he posted about it. I know now he was being overly kind and generous in his remarks. :)

Upperstackbeforedisassembly.jpg

LowerStackbeforedisassembly.jpg

Bellbeforedisassembly.jpg


The next group of photos show the tarogoto disassembled, and the parts that were removed. The unthreaded rods holding the keys were easily punched out using a small nail set and a pair of pliers. It was mostly rust holding them in place anyways.

The posts came out quite easily as well. They are screwed into place and the shrinkage of the wood as it dried in Utah's climate made them easy to turn. The Music Medic small post pliers was the ideal tool to unscrew them.

It is interesting to note that few of the keys are actually "keycups" as we know them. They are simply dish shaped circles that the pad sits on, rather than in. On some keys there are needle springs beneath the key made to act as flat springs do on modern woodwinds.

The pads are handmade, thin, and made of various materials---none of which are familiar to me. They were glued to the key "dishes" with a glue that released when heated, thank goodness.

The first four photos below show the upper and lower joints and the condition of the toneholes. Fortunately they appear to be in better condition on the lower joint with larger toneholes.

Taragotodisassembledupperjoint1.jpg

Taragotodisassembledupperjoint2.jpg

Taragotodisassembledlowerjoint1.jpg

Taragotodisassembledlowerjoint2.jpg


The next three photos show the irregularity inside of the bore of the upper and lower joint and inside the bell. Benade calls these types of irregular surfaces "perturbations".

Upperjointinsidebore.jpg

Lowerjointinsidebore.jpg

Insideofbell.jpg


The next photo shows the keys, pads, and rods that were removed. Rather than find fault with the workmanship that went into the construction of this instrument, I am amazed at what they could accomplish with the tools and materials they had to work with.

Keyspadsandrods.jpg


An old Martin Freres clarinet gave it's life to provide grenadilla dust for the restoration of the toneholes on this taragoto for which I am grateful.

Grenadilladustfortoneholerepair.jpg


The shining light at the end of this long tunnel is the discovery of a beautiful instrument inside this "ugly duckling". This last photo shows the results of some rubbing alcohol on a rag and some elbow grease on the lower joint.

Woodunderlyingblackfinish.jpg


Since I can only work on this project between customer instruments and the restorations I sell on eBay, the next installment may take me a while to post.

Part 2 will entail the repair and restoration of the body of the instrument inside and out, with emphasis on perfecting the tonehole surfaces.

Part 3 will undertake repairing and modernizing the keys, posts, rods, and springs.

Part 4 will be the repadding, adjusting, and fixing the intonation wherever possible.

I welcome all comments, suggestions, and advice anyone might have. I'll do my best to answer questions, but remember this is a work in progress and I am plowing a lot of new ground here as I go along.
 
John, I'm so glad to see some real wood under whatever it was coated with. So far so very good! It is in good hands; if anybody can put Humpty Dumpty back together it is you.

Although I could never get below the G1, the upper octave--or at least whatever sounded of it through the leaks--seemed very decently in tune, relatively speaking for a tárogató. I was able to get D3, which honestly is a difficult note on both my newer "good" taragotok, so perturbations or no, I suggest you get it in good working order before you start thinking of toying with the bore.

As we say in Japan: "Gambatte!", which is a combination of "you can do it!", "do your best!" and "good luck!"

Toby
 
Thanks for the pics! Looks like a lot of fun!

I never understood the need to "paint" beautiful wood black. The same applies to other instruments, such as chinese double basses or VSO's ("violin-shaped objects). There is nice wood there, you just have to get rid of the crap they cake on top of it:)

What especially gets me is when and ebony clarinet gets painted black :)

Those key springs... My back-up taragot was missing a few of those, so I went to a local woodwind repair shop to get some. They sold me some blued spring rods, with the advice that nothing else will work. I got home and found out it's way too thin for my keys. But I found a better source: piano wire. Since I built a cimbalom recently (HUngarian/Romanian hammered dulcimer on steroids), I have some piano wire of various gauges - feels like perfect material for these missing tárogató key springs. Since this is my only reed instrument, I didn't know they use flat springs now.

So you'll use CA glue with the wood dust to restore the holes?

Looking forward to the next installment!

George
 
Yes. CA works very well with the powdered grenadilla. I really like the BS brand. (That's no BS, that's really the name.)

The blue steel needle springs come in a variety of sizes and thicknesses. Music Medic now carries them on their website. The assortment is a bit expensive ($95), but you can order individual springs if you know the sizes you need.

Piano wire is also good. I have heard of some techs using that to replace flute springs.
 
I highlighted this thread on the Woodwind Forum page on Facebook. It is the kind of post that interests a lot of people with exotic instruments and a peek inside the life of a repair tech.

I still hear some anecdotal info that we get some new members based on the highlighted posts. Can't be that many as there are only 75 members as of today.
 
On the springs - If you read Boehm's book on the development of the flute, he made his own springs from sewing needles. English sewing needles.

I must dig Boehm's book out it out and see what the treatment was, but as I recall it was simply to heat them and let them cool.

Might work here. I remember as a kid trying to dry out the pins I used for aeromodelling, which'd got wet and I didn't want to rust. I put them under a hot grill for a while, and they went blue. Didn't rust, either.
 
First, I've gotta say this thread is uber-cool. I love instrument take-aparts. (I've also gotta say that that's a very nice soprano you linked to.)

I've got three questions:

I was looking at the second pic you posted, the lower joint. Am I looking at it correctly and seeing that the "upper" tenon is angled?

Looking at the interior of the horn, is that just ick or really bad wood? Are you going to try to sand it down?

Y'know, considering how popular the taragato is, here, I really should do some more research ....
 
First, I've gotta say this thread is uber-cool. I love instrument take-aparts. (I've also gotta say that that's a very nice soprano you linked to.)
Thanks Pete. That means a lot coming from you.

I've got three questions:

I was looking at the second pic you posted, the lower joint. Am I looking at it correctly and seeing that the "upper" tenon is angled?

Looking at the interior of the horn, is that just ick or really bad wood? Are you going to try to sand it down?

1. What you are seeing is the ring with a post attached that is coming loose and sitting at an angle.

2. If you know what rough sawn lumber looks like where the wood fibers stick out, that is the case inside this instrument.

3. Toby suggests that I get it playing before messing with the insides. Eventually I will want to try to smooth the surface while removing as little material as possible.
 
Since I had some time this weekend I did some more work on the body of the instrument. As I wrote previously, the black coating came off with alcohol. I have since learned that lacquer thinner works much faster, but the fumes are very potent indoors (and I need all of the brain cells I still have left.) :)

Once the black coating was removed, I sanded each part starting with 400 grit wet-or-dry sandpaper, then 600 grit, 800 grit, 1000 grit and finally 2400 micromesh.

The technique I used was to cut the sandpaper into 1" strips and then used a "ragging" motion like shining your shoes. I was able to support the top joint between a bench peg and my stomach. The bottom joint fit onto a vacuum cleaner hose extension in my vice, and the bell fit onto my "piano leg" wooden mandrel I use to hold saxophones also held in a vice.

Once the part was sanded and wiped clean, I applied a bit of Mother's Caranuba Wax and when the wax formed a haze I ragged the part with a clean cloth to bring out the shine.

The photos that follow show the before and after. The next step will be to "dress" the toneholes and correct any imperfections. I have ordered a digital microscope to help with this process. Hopefully I will be able to take some closeup pictures when I get to that step.

Upperjointtocomparison.jpg

Upperjointbottomcomparison.jpg

Lowerjointtopcomparison.jpg

Lowerjointbottomcomparison.jpg

Bellcomparison.jpg
 
great before and after pictures so far John

Looking at the initial quality it looks like they had dull cutting tools when they cut the outside of the body and/or used the wrong lathe speed. I know because I've been there before .. gotta keep the cutters sharp and the lathe at a correct speed.
 
John--looking good. Better than I expected. The wood looks decent. I've sanded/smoothed the bore of the Reményi and the upper joint of the Stowasser (where someone coated it badly with some kind of crappy lacquer). I use a shakuhachi technique: wrap rubber sheeting (~10 cm/4" wide) around the bottom of a flute swab so that it has a decent diameter for the part of the bore I am working on. For the bottom of the bore I use a fairly thick dowel.

You need at least a couple of wraps of rubber so that it has some give. I then cover the rubber with double-sided tape and then cut a piece of sandpaper and wrap it over the rubber. That gives you a nice working tool that will smooth without taking off too much wood. When the paper clogs just take it off, put some fresh double-sided tape on the rubber, and put on a new piece. It can be slow work if you need to do large areas of rough wood, but it is gentle.

If the wood is really rough-grained or soft, you could consider lacquering the bore. Real lacquer is very nasty (basically concentrated sap of poison ivy), but there are good chemical alternatives that are similar (here we have "Cashew" brand). A couple of coats sanded in between will give you a hard, durable, long-lasting surface. Many Japanese wooden as well as bamboo flutes are finished this way, and they last hundreds of years.
 
Very pretty.

How many slabs of wood do you think it was made out of? The upper and lower joints have a considerably different look.
 
John, you are definitely one of the more determined tárogató guys out there. I'm very impressed with your work, and obviously this instrument presented an incredible learning experience! It's been forever since I've done a complete "remanufacture" but the time and patience it takes to do this kind of work is intense.
It's one of those things that when you take your time and be careful with it, the results are inevitably wonderful, I'll be looking forward to possibly hearing some sound clips when the little beauty is all finished up!

I second kymarto on using chemical lacquer, it's all I use in situations like that, but it's really a worst case scenario thing. If you must, it will do the trick.
Keep up the good work!
 
Very pretty.

How many slabs of wood do you think it was made out of? The upper and lower joints have a considerably different look.

That is a good question. Pictured below are the top and bottom joints together and the bottom joint and bell. They are not a perfect match, but they are close. Toby guessed that it might have been constructed out of palisander wood, and from the photo that seems to be the case.

Showingupperandlowerjointtogether.jpg

Showingbottomjointandbelltogether.jpg


Below is a photo of "palisander wood"
palisanderwood.jpg
 
Back
Top Bottom