CD: Hungarian Dances from the 17th-18th Century

[Gandalfe]

The Kuruc id?k zen?je: Hungarian Dances from the 17th-18th Century - Csaba Nagy, T?rogat? (http://www.amazon.com/Kuruc-id%C3%B6k-zen%C3%A9je-Hungarian-17th-18th/dp/B000F6ZOBE/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1208133591&sr=8-4) CD, available on Amazon, is dated 2006. Unfortunately there are no sound clips to review before purchasing.

Fortunately Pete included some YouTubage in the reference topic in this part of the forum.

[MrDibbs]

There's a little bit of Csaba playing at the beginning of this video

http://videa.hu/videok/tudomany-technika/igazi-hangszerkulonlegesseg-hangszer-tarogato-zene-kNiA26w4TRs4xeLt

and more here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrf7W0iGFt0

[Gandalfe]

Are you from Hungary? (Your profile can be updated using the User CP menu item above. That will help us tailor answers based on your locale.)

[MrDibbs]

No, England but I was over there a few weeks ago for a tarogato festival.

[Gheorghe]

There's a little bit of Csaba playing at the beginning of this video

http://videa.hu/videok/tudomany-technika/igazi-hangszerkulonlegesseg-hangszer-tarogato-zene-kNiA26w4TRs4xeLt

and more here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrf7W0iGFt0

I noticed that almost every Hungarian tarogato player plays the instrument like a clarinet, facing down.

Romanians play it more like a sax, straight out.

To me, the sound coming from Romania is very different from that of Hungary (style aside - I'm referring to the sound itself). I suspect a big part of that has to do with individual mouthpieces, but I believe the angle has an influence as well.

George

[kymarto]

I noticed that almost every Hungarian tarogato player plays the instrument like a clarinet, facing down.

Romanians play it more like a sax, straight out.

To me, the sound coming from Romania is very different from that of Hungary (style aside - I'm referring to the sound itself). I suspect a big part of that has to do with individual mouthpieces, but I believe the angle has an influence as well.

George

There is an article online describing the differences in mpc design in different regions. Basically, a higher baffle will give a brighter thinner sound, whereas a deeper baffle design and bigger chamber will give a more mellow tone (always keeping mpc volume constant for tuning). This is well known in sax mpc design. I suspect there is much that could be done with taragot mpc design in this regard, including fixing many intonational problems (if the instrument itself is good).

I doubt angle has any effect on the actual sound, although it would affect the sound radiation. The sound from the bell always has more high partials than sound radiated from other parts of the instrument (open tone holes), so if the bell is pointing outward it will sound much brighter.

[MartinMods]

I doubt angle has any effect on the actual sound, although it would affect the sound radiation. The sound from the bell always has more high partials than sound radiated from other parts of the instrument (open tone holes), so if the bell is pointing outward it will sound much brighter.

I imagine that the angle has a great deal to do with sound as it directly affects the amount of reed damping by the lower lip and embouchure pressure. Ask any legit clarinetist.

[pete]

To be specific (and to go with MartinMods), I use this example:

I'm a decent clarinet player. I'm a decent saxophone player ... except on straight soprano. Why? I play it like a clarinet: the position of the horn is such that I blow more "across" the reed than into the mouthpiece, which results in The World's Wimpiest Soprano Sax Tone. Now, give me an early 20th-century fully curved soprano (i.e. "looks like an alto sax"), I sound decent. The only real change is the angle of the neck.

'Course you also have double- and "single"-lip embochures to discuss, when you're talking sax or clarinet. Dunno what the embochure is supposed to be on the Taragato.

[kymarto]

It crossed my mind to qualify what I said with: "as long as the angle change doesn't change the embouchure", which I guess I should have done. Anyway the effect should be easy enough to test--just play the horn at different angles and see how much the sound actually changes. I will try it at home tonight with my clarinet and sop sax and see.

Another thing to consider here is that what we are now discussing is angle of the mpc relative to the mouth, so it is possible to hold the instrument at various angles and keep the embouchure constant, ala Miles.

There is an interesting comparison here between the sound of a Stowasser and a cheap Timis. While there is some difference in timbre, the main difference in in intonation: the second octave D and E are pretty awful (somewhat better on the Stowasser, but by no means perfect).

http://www.11thmuse.com/Comparison.html

This is the sound I like; I'm not much into the buzzy stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIwPmgd0Hvs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfwwaGQrZiU&feature=related

And I think finally, a lot has to do with the sound one is trying to achieve. I find this video instructive--how much alike the sop and the taragot end up sounding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI39E6JGnWE

[Gheorghe]

Anyway the effect should be easy enough to test--just play the horn at different angles and see how much the sound actually changes.

It absolutely does change the sound. I'm sure it's related to embouchure changes. I have to remind myself periodically not to drop it down.


This is the sound I like; I'm not much into the buzzy stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIwPmgd0Hvs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfwwaGQrZiU&feature=related


I'm the polar opposite :) I like the "in your face" sound more than those 2 examples. I'm also not too crazy about the vibrato in the 2nd video. It sounds nervous to me. I like it much wider.

George

[Gheorghe]

There is an interesting comparison here between the sound of a Stowasser and a cheap Timis. While there is some difference in timbre, the main difference in in intonation: the second octave D and E are pretty awful (somewhat better on the Stowasser, but by no means perfect).

http://www.11thmuse.com/Comparison.html



The Timis models are considered lower-quality than Stowassers of course, but in this particular comparison, I think a lot has to do with the player. I agree with him though - there is a lot more on-the-fly adjustment that needs to be done on the Timis.

George