new member & q's for various clarinets

[cromerblues]

Hi

I am new to this forum but as a sax player also partake in the SOTW forum so many here may well be forum "doublers"!!

I constantly lookout for Ebay bargains for clarinets and have bid successfully on a number over the past year. In particular my Noblet 40, 1973, which I find extremely forgiving to play and the only setback is the "non-wood" bell. I have a number waiting restoration. A Normandy Special is all but finished and I am looking forward to playing it "sorted". There are some excellend bargains to be found on Ebay but you have to be careful and read between the lines. I have made errors and managed to correct them thankfully but that usually is due to mis-advertising or a moment of brain blindness. Many advertise without understanding their instuments, indeed the majority I suspect are not players. This is contrary I think to the sax for sale section where the players appear to prevail. As such the opportunity to find the proverbial bargain is better with clarinets. also an easier instrument and cheaper, to work on.

I have recently developed interest in older simple system style clarinets. In particular Thibouville Lamy and have a couple about to go under the screwdriver! When you consider the sound instruments such as the Normandy and Noblet 40 above, that come with plastic bells there are opportunities to buy older unfashionable instruments that come with lovely wooden bells, many of which can fit immediately in place of the plastic versions. Obviously note needs to be taken of the tonal changes etc but a darn sight cheaper than buying a replacement matched bell!! also, many of these instruments clean up to reveal beautiful wood and as I love working with wood this is an added pleasure. The big bonus is revealing a good playing instrument.

Perhaps many people focus on the big name models and forget that the craftsmen of years gone by were just that, specialists in every respect and producers of excellent clarinets. If I can find an older clarinet that looks and feels good and plays beautifully then I am happy.

Do any of you folk out there feel the same or have definitive thoughts on older clarinets? Mind you judging from the Ebay ads almost every clarinet of 10 years age or more is "vintage" !!! Also any thoughts on mouthpiece matching for these older horns?

I will be interested in your responses:-)

[SteveSklar]

welcome to the board CromerBlues

I absolutely love older clarinets.

For instance the old oval emblem Noblet 40s are very, very nice playing instruments (and the 45s of course)
Normandy 7,8,9,10, and 12s are also exceptional clarinets for the money

older wood Evette master models and E&S master models are even better clarinets than one may think

The list goes on of course. most old french clarinet manufacturers made very nice clarinets even the secondary names such as SML, Malerne etc made great clarinets. All are bargains by comparison to new clarinets of today.

Most of the non big 3 clarinets sold on ebay seem to be from non-players or those ebay stores or pawn type shops. So they either hype up the instrument (like someone trying to sell an exceptionally rare Normandy 8 for hundreds of dollars) or they know nothing about it.

[cromerblues]

Thanks for agreeing Steve!

I took delivery today of a Jr Lafleur/EJ albert rosewood clarinet. The wood is gorgeous and although it is without it's barrel it just about plays with a really different tone. looking forward to cleaning it all up and repadding as required. The wood alone makes it worthwhile to me. I paid £25 for this and another unknown older make, although a non wood instrument, including p&p. I feel the lafleur is worth more and once sorted should be a nice instrument. Looking at some jazz footage on You Tube I was interested to see Albert system kit being used, or similar simple system. I had heard that the jazz fraternity have a bent for these due to their sound.

Also received a very good condition B&H 2-20. Plays out of the box and looks a good buy at £70. THese appear to command higher fees generally, but the seller sold it as a Buy it Now without saying in the title what it was.........so people probably looked no further and missed it. An offer was made and counter made until we agreed a price. I am happy. I hope to have another soon. The it is fix and sell time. These represent damn good value in the present market and for me are better than a plastic starter horn. Also the doublers tend to be a little more discerning.

Any info on the JR Lafleur would be really gratefully received please

Regards

[Dave Dolson]

Cromer: Welcome. I have a few old clarinets and have owned others. However, I find Boehms easier to play and have yet to come across a more resonant, full-sounding clarinet than my Buffet RC Prestige in Boehm (don't know if that line was ever made in Oehler or Albert).

However, in my kind of music (trad jazz) some of the die-hards cling to their Alberts - and sound very good on them. My favorite trad-jazz clarinetist uses a Buffet Albert made in 1887. He has a tone (and trad technique) to die for . . . but he claims he had to learn some different fingerings to play the thing in tune. Whatever - he plays it world-class.

Another SoCal player of world-class caliber uses a modern-made Albert clarinet and is remarkable on the thing. As has been discussed in other threads, I find the finger spread on the right hand to be painful and that's one reason I don't play mine much. In addition, my Alberts are stuffy - and they are in good repair.

I have an old Buescher hard-rubber Bb Albert as well as a Conn hard-rubber Bb Albert. I recently was gifted a no-name French-made C-Albert which is in the shop for a complete overhaul. I will report on it when I get it back.

I also have a SilverKing metal clarinet by H.N. White Co., Cleveland, OH. It is Boehm - has two barrels (440 and 443). Pretty neat but I still like my Buffets better.
DAVE

[tictactux]

Welcome, cromerblues!

My very first clarinet was an Albert System.
It had red thread instead of corks, red leather pads and came from India. :oops:

Anyhow, I think it's all a question of getting-used-to something. I mean, doesn't the sax essentially use Albert fingerings? (or am I as dense as my clarinet's wood?)

Having said that - I love off-brand clarinets!

[Dave Dolson]

I think there are some similarities between Albert and saxophone fingerings (left hand, mainly), but there are enough differences to confuse many of us. Doesn't mean we can't overcome those differences and play both - many do.

I find more similarities between Boehm clarinets and saxophone fingerings than I do with Albert System in the mix. The finger-spread and forked fingerings on the right hand with Alberts are really different and difficult for me. DAVE

[Connical]

Welcome aboard. I have a Noblet 40 bell. It has a few cracks, but you can have it for free if you cover the shipping.

Stephen

[SOTSDO]

The only real similarity between saxophone and Albert system/German system horns is that the bottom joint has the two little fingers doing similar things. There's little duplication between what the little fingers do, and the rollers on the keys strike one immediately as being different than the Boehm system.

Against that, the first and second fingers on both hands operate differently than on the saxophone. Both systems have a thumbhole (the sax doesn't), and (most importantly) the sax overblows at the octave while the clarinet does so at the twelfth. And, of course, the clarinet blows much differently than does the saxophone.

That right hand spread is a bit much for some to deal with. I grew up on a Albert bass clarinet (and have played bassoon from pretty early on as well), so it has never bothered me. But, it does bother some.

What is really a bummer is playing an Albert without a patent C# mechanism. What that means is that you have no workaround for problems over the break, and you are (in effect) playing a clarinet where B and C# can only be played with the left hand, and C and Eb with the right. This will teach you right quick why German and Albert system horns have those rollers.

[cromerblues]

Thanks for your responses, all interesting and a good spread of views.

also thanks to Stephen (connical) for your kind offer. Is the bell restorable or will it always appear to be a mended bell? If you think it would be worth some tlc to put it in good order then I may take you up on your offer. I think the shipping from you is not too bad if there is no hurry and also if pakaged as small/lightly as possible. Have you any idea of costs? Maybe I have something you need in my growing box of bits?

I would be interested in any instruction on how to solve a problem. yesterday I took delivery of a B&H 2-20, nice looking horn in good condition. I swapped mid "playalong" from my perfectly in pitch noblet 40 and found the 2-20 a good half tone out. no matter how much tweaking of barrels and mouthpieces (in/out etc) I have yet to solve it. Is ther another cause I may be missing? Air leak?

Regards to all

[tictactux]

I would be interested in any instruction on how to solve a problem. yesterday I took delivery of a B&H 2-20, nice looking horn in good condition. I swapped mid "playalong" from my perfectly in pitch noblet 40 and found the 2-20 a good half tone out. no matter how much tweaking of barrels and mouthpieces (in/out etc) I have yet to solve it. Is ther another cause I may be missing? Air leak?
Maybe a leak, maybe dirt in some toneholes. A popular culprit is the register tube as it is so small. Remove the register key and clean the tube with a pipe cleaner. Inspect other tone holes for things that don't belong there.
(You didn't say what direction (sharp, flat) your 2-20 is "out".)

[cromerblues]

hi,

thanks for the thoughts, sorry, 2-20 is coming out flat rather than sharp. I will put a meter on it and see what it is doing for certain. Heard about register key before and just happened to have bought pipe cleaners a couple of days back! Will see what happens.

[Connical]

... Is the bell restorable or will it always appear to be a mended bell? ...

I think it's possible to mend well enough. I'll post some pics tomorrow,
so you can see for yourself.
Stephen

[SteveSklar]

real large bore clarinets, such as B&Hs, usually require a mpc that is made for them. That could be your issue.

see near the bottom
http://woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1613

and much more info here
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=247514&t=247406

[tictactux]

the only setback is the "non-wood" bell.

For what it's worth, my outdoor horn also has a plastic (ABS) bell, and first I found it beneath my dignity.
Now, I am not all that unhappy - it's lighter than a wooden bell, and the clarinet is balanced so that with the thumb rest at optimal height my thumb is exactly under the instrument's center of gravity. I like that, it's a lot easier to play, especially when standing.

[cromerblues]

oh, my head hurts now!!!!!

There was me thinking this tube with holes in it and flappy things that you press made beautiful sounds by blowing down a funny shaped piece of plastic or rubber or even metal and squashing a reed a bit in the process!! No one said everything changes everything!!!

Hmmmm..........Although I have played clarinets and saxes for a fairly long time, in fits and starts, and feel reasonably competent on clarinet especially, I am only now understanding that these are much more complex. I understand that saxes are inherently unstable out of tune instruments and much depends on player skill to keep in tune. Also that the physical parts add on a day to day basis to that mix. I had not realised until recently the diversity of clarinet design and operation. Again, is it not correct that the player has most control over the tonal sound that comes out the blunt end? Now though you are saying my horn (B&H 2-20) may need a particular style/size of mouthpiece.

My collection of clarinets is growing (thanks a bunch Ebay) and they are diverse in age and style. It will be a challenge to bring them all into line and some presumably may never play well. Oddly, of all those horns I have or have had my Noblet 40 and B&H REgent (plastic) are seemingly the mosr forgiving. Until I have cleaned, repadded, oiled etc all the others I cannot be sure of their playability.

Is there a place where much knowledge can be found re older clarinets? I have the following which are of interest and I would like to undestand them better and get them playing:

Thibouville Lamy Jerome
JR Lefluer/EJ Albert
George? Butler
Jedson?? Maybe

All are made from beautiful wood and have all parts present and pretty much working. There will be an odd, and I suspect odd may be the word, repad and tweak as a minimum. But I feel that if I can resolve their difficulties there will rise a pleasant clarinet or 2/3. At least one of them has a lovely different tone.....Lafleur/Albert (any inof on any of these old 'uns would be gratefully received. In particular the George Butler appears from the little I can find out on the web, to be around 1870 in date.

There, thats plenty to discuss! Oh and info re diff key systems??

[SteveSklar]

For what it's worth, my outdoor horn also has a plastic (ABS) bell, and first I found it beneath my dignity.
Now, I am not all that unhappy - it's lighter than a wooden bell, and the clarinet is balanced so that with the thumb rest at optimal height my thumb is exactly under the instrument's center of gravity. I like that, it's a lot easier to play, especially when standing.

my outdoor clarinet has a plastic bell too. matter of fact, the body and barrel are plastic too. Oh well, it's only a Buffet B12 .. what do I expect ??

[SteveSklar]

Is there a place where much knowledge can be found re older clarinets? I have the following which are of interest and I would like to undestand them better and get them playing:

Thibouville Lamy Jerome
JR Lefluer/EJ Albert
George? Butler
Jedson?? Maybe

All are made from beautiful wood and have all parts present and pretty much working. There will be an odd, and I suspect odd may be the word, repad and tweak as a minimum. But I feel that if I can resolve their difficulties there will rise a pleasant clarinet or 2/3. At least one of them has a lovely different tone.....Lafleur/Albert (any inof on any of these old 'uns would be gratefully received. In particular the George Butler appears from the little I can find out on the web, to be around 1870 in date.

There, thats plenty to discuss! Oh and info re diff key systems??

ask Terry about the Albert keywork clarinets
and
Google ......

[pete]

Yah. One of you guys with more clarinet knowledge should write up a bit more on the other fingering systems. I can do *some* manufacturer searches.

Terry wrote an article here on the Albert System HERE (http://woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1054).

RE: knowledge of "old" clarinets, I think you need to define your eras fairly exactly. I think there might be more stuff out there about boxwood clarinets and earlier than info about late 19th century instruments.

BTB, there's a bunch of interesting clarinets HERE (http://www.allmusicalinstruments.net/catalog/Vintage_Arts:Instruments_and_Implements.html) -- Mazzeo and Alberts, included -- for real cheap.

Go nuts! Tell us about your purchases!

[SteveSklar]

Yah. One of you guys with more clarinet knowledge should write up a bit more on the other fingering systems. I can do *some* manufacturer searches.

i only fix them from time to time ... i don't really play 'em

[cromerblues]

hi

thanks again guys for the info and thoughts, I'll just take a pill quickly then try and unravel it all..........I will photograph the various "oldies" I have and you guys can then all have a good laugh at the silly Englishman (well Scotsman technically) who needs 3 hands to play his horns!

[SOTSDO]

Push comes to shove, there are really only three "systems" that are even close to mainstream these days. Anything else is an outlier, one that's not likely to be encountered by 99.99999% of clarinet players except through a photograph.

The "Albert":

This is (more or less) a linear development of the Müller clarinet of 1800 or so, the first "modern" clarinet. There are many variations on the keywork for these instruments, but they too are simply variations on the basic theme of holes set up by Müller. Different fingerings are a product of this horn's following the original arrangement. Thumb down gives you F#, not F, and T/xxx/xoo gives you B, not Bb.

These horns are still around in considerable quantities, and thanks to our friends in West Asia, they are again starting to show up "new". However, if you see the name Selmer or Buffet on an artist style clarinet from the late 1800's, it's quite possible that you are looking at a quality "pro" instrument with a fingering system that's going to be alien to most teachers and musicians.

There is nothing "wrong" with an Albert system clarinet. True, the scale is not as event as a Boehm horn (see below). But, the sound is "purer" than a Boehm in some respects, and some (me among them) find that the Albert horns blow freer than your typical Boehm horn.

One of my favorite memories of the days of my youth is the fingering chart included with the Rubank "Elementary" clarinet method. This was a two sided chart. On one side, there was printed what appeared to be a normal looking clarinet, yet if you tried to use the chart dependent from it, you ended up with some pretty strange sounding scales.

That was (of course) the Albert side of the chart. The other side, the one with a spindly looking metal clarinet, was the Boehm one.

The "Boehm":

This one should be called the Klose Boehm, a more proper name for the Boehm clarinet (which Oswald Boehm had little or nothing to do with). This is the "bog standard" 17/6 clarinet, the one that "everyone plays". 99 times out of a hundred, if you see a clarinet for sale outside of Germany, it's going to be a "Boehm".

The Boehm arose from reforms to the Müller performed by Klose, and it resulted in the addition of the trademark Boehm "brille" keys (the rings on axles) that operate offset keys elsewhere on the instrument. (These were added to the Albert horns as well, although in different configurations.) The Boehm arrangement resulted in thumb down giving us the familiar F, with T/xxx/xoo giving Bb. Different, but not necessarily better; both arrangements can be equally facile. The main "improvement" of the Boehm is probably the duplicated little finger keys. (These have been added to some Alberts as well.)

Variants on this are the Mazzeo and the Stubbins and the Reform Boehm, as well as the "full Boehm". More keys, different mechanisms added, but all still operating on the same general "hole pattern" on the instrument.

And then there's the Oehler system...

The Oehler system:

This is a linear development of the Müller horn, but without the modifications to the basic hole structure of the original. Instead, Oskar Oehler "perfected" the tuning of the notes on the horn by adding various venting mechanism. As a result, while the basic framework of the scale on the horn is much the same, a full blown Oehler horn will have numerous "vent" holes covered by little tiny pads operated not directly, but rather by other keys pressed to give the basic tone. (On mine, there are three of these attached directly to the brille rings of the finger holes alone, with others operated by linkages off of the rest of the keywork.

To say that Oehler horns are rare is a bit of a misstatement. In Germany, they are as common as - well - German clarinets. (Also present are other, non-Oehler, German clarinets that are similar to Albert instruments.) However, most non-German clarinettists will never see even a photograph of one, much less ever use one.

And, all of the above "systems" have been produced in Eb, D, C, basset horn, Eb alto, Bb bass, and contra form. (I've never seen nor heard of a G Boehm or Oehler horn.) These are correspondingly rarer, roughly in the same proportion to which Boehm versions are found.

And then there's the Romero clarinet. Not enough of those out there to even worry about, but they are different from all of the above.

[Connical]

As promised earlier, I was to post some pics of a Noblet 40 bell. It had a faint oval emblem, but under magnified viewing, it turns out to be a M. Dupo... or something . Anyways, I still have the broken lower stack from the Noblet 40 available. I sent cromerblues a PM and will give him first right of refusal. If he passes, anyone else who needs it for parts is welcome to it. Just cover the shipping . Here are some pics.

[cromerblues]

Thanks again Terry, your information is very much of interest.

I hope and trust that you managed to duck the hurricane that has devastated so much of your locality?

regards

[Chris J]

Is there a place where much knowledge can be found re older clarinets? I have the following which are of interest and I would like to undestand them better and get them playing:



The University of Edinburgh (same side of the border as you?) has a good site about old clarinets. Link below

http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ugw/ugwf1x.html

Chris