Rant: Snobby shop people

[tictactux]

(I post this under .general, as it's not neither clarinet-specific nor repair-specific. Moderators feel free to move this to the .rant section)

Anyone else who feels humiliated by sales people, for not having a $9000+ instrument? This saturday it was about the third time in a row I got scolded for buying a student-class instrument (which I overhauled and that plays fine, btw).

I was about to inquire about a one-piece case for a Bundy Bass. (I bought a bell with a spike (my Artley didn't have a pegged bell) and it came with a clarinet attached, but sans the case around it).

The clarinet case salesperson did the Spock eyebrow thing and asked "uh, er, is it one of those Vee-toe clarinets?" (emphasis and approx pronounciation by me) and I sez "actually, it's a Selm..." - "Oh!" (and his face reddened) "...one of those plastic instruments! You should know that they have nothing, nothing, I repeat nothing! in common with Selmer!" (not that I didn't know) "Sorry Sir, no, we don't have cases for those. Good afternoon."

The time before was when I needed a pivot screw for a Mazzeo Bundy, different shop, same reaction. Even before it was about a broken trill key for an Amati - near same reaction.

Meanwhile I found a repair person who just - repairs. Doesn't sell. Just fixes, solders, bends and pampers. I think I'll stay clear of shops that don't actually sell one of the model's I'm having an issue with.

I can understand that a technician or a sales person won't marry you just because you bring in an instrument they wouldn't touch with a conductor's baton, but is it really necessary to let the customer know what a closefisted cheap a* he is?

Hrmph. End of rant.

[Carl H.]

I've got no time or money for those sort of shops/people. Too bad they are so common.

[Gandalfe]

I went through a couple of those places before I settled on the ones that get my business. And I know their tech's by sight and name. Finding disappointing places --> easy. Finding quality places --> priceless. 8-)

[Groovekiller]

I repair instruments for the majority of the professional woodwind players in the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale/West Palm Beach area. From the pros I get a lot of top of the line bass clarinets. However, the top baritone/bass clarinet doubler uses a Bundy bass clarinet. Recently, he bought another bass clarinet for a spare, and also because the case was in great shape. What did he buy? Another Bundy!

[saxismyaxe]

Brick and mortar retail stores are in enough trouble these days trying to surviving to allow such deplorable bed side manners from their sales staff. They should be happy to get your business and keep their personal opinions about brand/model selection to themselves unless solicited.

I repair my own instruments, but when utilizing one of my favorite techs, you can be sure that they 100% professional and glad to have my business, whatever it is I bring to them.

Find another, more appreciative retailer/tech asap.

[Helen]

I had a similar issue at one of the big music stores in Vancouver years ago when I was shopping for a bari sax. When I told the retail guy that I wanted to try the Mark VI they had, he started going on about how Selmers were no good, and how I should really be playing Yamahas because of X, Y, & Z.

I told him I wasn't interested in debating the relative merits of Selmers versus Yamahas, but just wanted to know if the Mark VI bari listed in their computer was still in stock. He then grudgingly looked it up for me. I won't say what I thought of him or I'll get a red card by one of the mods ;-), suffice to say, I never dealt with him again.

Oh, and BTW, the horn was already sold, but just not removed from their system yet. I guess some other fool who didn't know better, bought it instead of a Yamaha. :twisted:

[zagor]

yeah, here in stockholm you can have similar experiences...
Last week I was in a store, looking around... no one came and ask something. I´ve been walking and watching about 25 minutes, and no one from the crew (I could count 5 people who had the store t-shirt, so I guess they´re working there) come and asked me something.
By the way, I was the only customer...
so I just left...
Sometimes in certain store you can have the VIP factor... some famous musician come in in the store, and everyone jump on him... and you, poor doubler/not TV famous musician/studio owner won´t get some help...

[tjontheroad]

They're everywhere. You're not alone.

Superiority complexes among techs and sales people is an all to common issue. Humility and sense of appreciation for the business to the non-"brand name" part-time musician (like myself) gets me coming back with repeat business. I don't care how good you are (or think you are), if you're a jerk, I go elsewhere. Even if you are a top player, you should take your biz to those who support everyone as equals.

[Ed Svoboda]

When I need to shut someone up I pull out the five digit Mark VI alto.

Someone recently asked me why I didn't play a Mark VI bari instead of my Yani. I said I could buy three or four Yani's and since they did such a good job copying the VI (although I think the VI is a little more robust in contruction). They did such a nice job with the copy that the early Yani's have the same lousy response with the 1 and 1 b flat as the VI.

Sticking with a guy who just does repairs is probably the right thing to do.

[Rosemary]

Come to the shop I work in the UK.... very clarinet friendly although as I only started there a couple of months ago still working on getting more instruments in, and improving the music in store. These days in UK we don't turn anyone away, you want it we will get it. Mind you when the dad came in with the new clarinet he got on e bay for £70 because his kids teacher had said it was beyond economic repair, it was very hard not to tell him that you pay for what you get in life and perhaps the teacher was correct. Sent it to repairer who sent it back telling us we must be joking. I think we were.

[pete]

I, of course, always take things in a somewhat different direction. I'm also going to change my original rant a bit.

I've seen a trend with a lot of folks that have decided that pro is the only way to go (hey, that could be a good slogan!), and completely neglecting the following:

* The pro horn's a lot more expensive.
* The horn I'm playing might be a student horn, but I can't afford better.
* I might have some sentiment attached to the horn (wait; no. That was mold ...).
* A "professional model" from one company is not necessarily any better than a "student model" from a different company. Heck, you could argue that a really early pro model from the same company's not better than their newer pro model.
* The horn I have is "good enough" and I have no desire to "upgrade" it.

However, I do know that the instrument shop might see me bringing in my beat-up Pan American metal clarinet for an overhaul and think, "That guy's nuts. His horn's worth $20, tops!" or "He wants me to overhaul THAT? I bet he's going to say something like, 'Get this in perfect shape for $50,' and then take 5 weeks to pay me. What a waste of my time!" This kinda merges with the thread we had before about there being a "student horn overhaul" and a "pro horn overhaul" -- and the "student horn overhaul" is done with less attention and cheaper parts.

I've mentioned more than once how 90% of the e-mail I get is in the form of, "How much is this worth?" Over the years, I've started also mentioning something like, "Your beat-up Yamaha YAS-23 is only worth about $100 in current condition. However, if you got it overhauled for $700, it'll play like new. And those are $1500 new." I also make an effort to say something like, "Yah, it's worth $50. But if you really like the horn, why not get it overhauled? It's your cash."

I do, however, understand that a repairman might not want to work on (for example) my MONIQUE because it might disintegrate under his fingers. I'd hope that the repairman would say something like, "I'm sorry. I won't be able to work on that for you. We've had issues repairing those in the past. You might try $someone_else," rather than, "Get that piece of junk out of my store before it contaminates someone or breaks my computer keyboard so I HAVE TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS." (Sorry; eBay seller joke.)

Finally, I know that several other posters and I have specifically chosen avatars that are non-brand-instrument because we don't want you to think that we're going to say something like, "If it isn't Yamaha, it's junk!" I do understand, tho, that if I go to a dealer that isn't a Yamaha authorized one, I might not hear too many positive comments about all things Yamaha ....

[Groovekiller]

* I might have some sentiment attached to the horn (wait; no. That was mold ...).


LOL!

[jbtsax]

I have been in both worlds now. As a customer for many years and more recently as an employee of a successful locally owned music store.

I will be the first to admit that there are sales people who do nothing but blow smoke out of their lowest orifice. We have one or two of those too. If you think they annoy the customers, just try working in a repair shop dealing with the collateral damage they cause by not knowing what they don't know, and making sh*t up when they know they don't know. :)

Now for the other side of the counter. We have the customer type who I will call "Mr. Needy". He bought something in our store a long long time ago and has a sense of entitlement. He comes in and plays the instruments and mouthpieces for hours on end without every buying one. He quizzes the staff with dozens of questions about equipment keeping them tied up from helping other customers who are there to make a purchase.

He then comes to the repair shop and wants to chat about the old instrument in grandma's attic wanting to know sight unseen exactly how much it would cost to get it playing. Then he wants us to sell him some pieces of cork, a spring, and a few pads so he can do his own repair on the cheap.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that looking at retail music from both sides has given me a new perspective on things---especially when as a young band teacher I WAS JUST LIKE MR. NEEDY. I think a bit of common sense, courtesy, and respect goes a long way on both sides of the equation. That said, there have been several establishments, not just music stores, where my first visit was also my last because of the poor attitude and lack of customer service. So I do identify with the others who have posted in this thread.

[pete]

* I might have some sentiment attached to the horn (wait; no. That was mold ...).
LOL!
I still have no idea what posses people to send me close-up pictures of rust or mold on their horns. Is this supposed to be some subtle hint that the horn is old? Am I supposed to recommend a way to get rid of it? I dunno.

The highest priced horn I ever bought was that Yamaha YBS-52 that I keep mentioning. Before I bought it, I went to my dealer and asked to try all the baritone saxophones under $price that he had. Hey, three choices: Vito, Selmer USA or Yamaha. Made my decision a bit easier. And, while I may have given off the "Mr. Needy" vibe when it came to buying that horn (and, later, a Berg Larsen mouthpiece), I had already bought a couple horns there. Not like YEARS ago, but a few months prior.

[clarnibass]

Meanwhile I found a repair person who just - repairs. Doesn't sell. Just fixes, solders, bends and pampers. I think I'll stay clear of shops that don't actually sell one of the model's I'm having an issue with.
Locally, the main problem is they act like they are doing you a favor for letting you buy from them. A lot of stores act that way because there is a monopoly on each brand, sold only by one store or chain. That's what I got when I wanted a Yamaha mixer or AKG headphones.

OTOH, there is the opposite side. I sell some things. Very few. I don't like to sell stuff, so I only sell something if I think it is a better product than others available or a similar good product that I can sell for a more competitive price and feel I cangive a better service. My profit from these sales is so low that no store would ever accept it (that's part of why I can give better prices). Still, I can't help it but feel a bit ashamed for selling something, and sometimes I go to the extreme of not letting people know I'm selling it. Yes, definitely crazy...

[tictactux]

Still, I can't help it but feel a bit ashamed for selling something, and sometimes I go to the extreme of not letting people know I'm selling it. Yes, definitely crazy...
Now, now... I don't see a problem when someone is selling stuff that comes "naturally" along with repairing, eg some care products or even the odd refurbished instrument or maybe a gig bag, nothing wrong with that. And if the technician notices that my rag is dirty beyond belief or that I'm about to run out of cork grease, I don't complain about a house brand product "with compliments of the house." (just like we get a free interior cleaning when we bring in our car for service). The art consists in keeping a healthy balance...

[pete]

TTT, two other things about that.

First, and the reason why I didn't succeed in my one-and-only sales job, I don't believe in selling something that's not good. If I owned a shop, I wouldn't want to sell, for instance, MONIQUE horns because they're junk. Even though I'd make around 100% profit on each one I sell.

Second, and another reason why I didn't succeed in my one-and-only sales job, I don't believe in overvaluing something. The price I'd set on something would be whatever the buying price of the instrument was for me, plus any other expenses I had with getting it prepped for sale. I wouldn't make a profit, tho. I think that's not conducive to running a successful business :).

I think that some dealers have deluded themselves into selling overpriced junk with statements like, "We sell MONIQUE because they're the cheapest horn you can get!" or some such. Even if I used the rationalization of, "Well, I'm selling these because there will be folks that can't afford better," I'd still not feel very good with myself.

[tictactux]

I'd be a terrible sales person, probably the ruin of every sales-oriented business. That's why I ain't one. :-)
<shudders at the mere thought>

[retread]

As a career (now retired) salesman and sales manager, I'd like to point out that good salespeople are those who are good at helping people solve their problems and make decisions.

I'd also like to point out that good salespeople are rare. They tend to sell only the products and services they can be proud of. TTT's music shop clerk (obviously not a real salesperson) sounds like one of the army of incompetents.

[clarnibass]

Now, now... I don't see a problem when someone is selling stuff that comes "naturally" along with repairing
I don't really see a problem either, but it doesn't mean I feel 100% comfortable with it either... maybe because of the local culture of music stores behaving the way they do. Everything I sell is for minimal profit, or sometimes no profit at all (which I only know after the fact, beause of some tax issues i.e. it's a small chance but for the prices I sell them, I might even lose a little bit). I also first made sure no one in the area was selling something equivilent that was as good value.

[tictactux]

I don't really see a problem either, but it doesn't mean I feel 100% comfortable with it either... maybe because of the local culture of music stores behaving the way they do. Everything I sell is for minimal profit, or sometimes no profit at all (which I only know after the fact, beause of some tax issues i.e. it's a small chance but for the prices I sell them, I might even lose a little bit). I also first made sure no one in the area was selling something equivilent that was as good value.

I think the main difference is that you're living off doing while others live off selling. You might sell only stuff that enables you to preserve and present your work as good as possible (eg a pot of cork grease) or that enhances the quality of your repair (a new rag, a new case, maybe a box of reeds or a mouthpiece), or simply because the customer asked. You're providing "only" added value while a "proper" shop must sell gear in order to survive.

[AltoRuth]

yeah, here in stockholm you can have similar experiences...
Last week I was in a store, looking around... no one came and ask something. I´ve been walking and watching about 25 minutes, and no one from the crew (I could count 5 people who had the store t-shirt, so I guess they´re working there) come and asked me something.
By the way, I was the only customer...
so I just left...
Sometimes in certain store you can have the VIP factor... some famous musician come in in the store, and everyone jump on him... and you, poor doubler/not TV famous musician/studio owner won´t get some help...
Yep! In principle I would like to "buy local", but I recently went into a local place to buy some reeds, not unusual ones either. No sales staff approached me, so I located the reed display on my own and looked at the display (the ones I wanted were not there). Still no approach by sales staff, whom I would have asked if they perhaps had them behind the counter. I had already noted that the price of comparable reeds was nearly twice that of what I knew I would pay online, even factoring in shipping costs. Had I been treated with some kind of courtesy, I might have bought them anyway, but as it was, I left, still with no attention from staff. Lordy, perhaps I have become invisible!

I ordered online!

[retread]

I knew a guy who claimed he had a sure-fire method of getting service in a Macy's department store (no mean feat, that). He would behave very suspiciously, doing his best to imitate a shoplifter.

[PrincessJ]

I can be the best sales person on the planet (or off it for that matter), it's just that I'm in the same boat with those guys *points up*.
As easy as it would be for me to sell a Monique, I'd feel a terrible gut-guilt inside watching the customer walk away with a clari-no.

Alto-Ruth, I love ordering online for that same reason, I get suspicious with too-nice sales staff, and I find it bothersome to have my neck breathed down by the guy who insists "This drop cloth is better because it's blue and pretty" when it costs an extra buck. (Not that I've ever met that bad of a sales person yet, but I have a feeling that day will come, I'm prepared)

I also like ordering online because it saves me gas and time.
buying horns, mouthpieces, barrels, etc, I do prefer to test them. I always feel like it's a gamble if I can't test a MP. I hate that experience - made a bad mistake in my early clarinet days buying a $100+ MP online after hearing some guy say how great it was, only to realize I hated it (I was good enough to know how "wrong MP for me" felt at the time, trust me).

I always have to bring a box of 3.5s and 3s and usually try several reeds on a MP just to be sure. The guys at the shop here let me do that at least. That's another thing I hate - the people who say "Hey you have 30 seconds to put the MP on the clarinet and test. Hurry up."

Excuse me? It takes me at least 7 minutes to be able to judge a MP (and that's a low ball number, I like to examine). If there's nobody else in the store that is "waiting their turn", where's the fire. Luckily I have some good shops around here.

Bottom line, is I can't stand pushy, rushy sales folk, I'd understand if time was tight and the shop was crowded, though.

[AltoRuth]

Princess,
Given a choice between "pushy" and "absent", I'll take pushy, who at least can be persuaded (or coerced) into pointing the way to the the item I'm looking for. Actually, I much prefer simple courtesy from salespeople, which actually makes them much more effective at their job than the offensively pushy, whom, I might add, I have no trouble whatsoever "straight-arming" when necessary by donning my most repressive demeanor!

[PrincessJ]

I myself am a terribly sensitive person and get ruffled very quickly and easily by the pushy types (at least I can keep my composure better than George Washington) and if I know what I'm looking for and where to find it (in the stores around here, everything is easy to see and easy to find), I'd prefer to do so on my own.
Well the deal for me is, I'm the type who likes friendly, polite sales people who don't try to use that as a manipulation tactic. Although I won't fall victim to it and waste cash, it still ruffles my feathers.

[Gandalfe]

Gawd help the pushy or snobby music store saleperson who does that to me. But then, I can be as loud, brash, and outspoken as necessary. Part of that is genetic and part of that is from my 20 years in the military. Most people think I'm laid back too. 8-)

[PrincessJ]

I too can be that way, but I blame the Italian blood.
I'm laid back in public, and a little on the modest side, but when Jenn get mad, Jenn get mad.

See, I have this thing where I'll have the whole situation (for instance, what reeds I want and why) but I won't be able to put it in words.
Like, if someone asks me "So, why 3.5s?" "Why Vandoren"? It just doesn't come out right. I hate the sales people who do that. Now whenever people do that, I just say, because I like it. Not because they're less grainy, or my embouchure is this/that/whatever, or the darker tone I get, I just say I like them. I used to be this person what would give everyone a novel and lecture on why I like what, but I realized I don't quite have a way with words that's clear enough to understand and people have trouble following and misunderstand a lot.

So, for me, the best thing to do when people (including sales people) are pushy and nosy, is to shut up and use one word answers. And if that's not enough for 'em, I make sure it is in other ways.
*Princess holds up duct tape and cracks a twisted grin*