loose rings

[Carl H.]

The rings on my new Buffet barrel have both come loose. Nothing is loose on any of my clarinets, so do I need to do anything in particular to the new barrel to address this?

[Gandalfe]

The rings on my new Buffet barrel have both come loose. Nothing is loose on any of my clarinets, so do I need to do anything in particular to the new barrel to address this?Do they tighten up in the Summer?

[Carl H.]

Do they tighten up in the Summer?

I've only had it for 4 weeks. I've no idea what will happen in the summer.
These barrels were overnighted to the place I purchased them the same week as I purchased them. Straight from Buffet, AFAIK.

They aren't pull them off with a twist loose, they are pick it up and off they go loose.

[SteveSklar]

assuming they were tight to begin with .. it sounds like a humidification problem. The wood shrunk from the cold dry air of where you live (versus the humidity of Florida where they were shipped from)

try putting the rings back on and then oiling the sockets (alot) and let sit overnight and see how much tigher the rings are.

if that doesn't help then use the old orange peel or humidifier solution (and send me your xylophone <-- not a solution to the ring issue, but a solution for me :) )

[Gandalfe]

send me your xylophone <-- not a solution to the ring issue, but a solution for me :) )Xylophone?

[Carl H.]

Xylophone?
It's not really a xylpd, zylof, one of those things, it's a marimba.

[Carl H.]

try putting the rings back on and then oiling the sockets (alot) and let sit overnight and see how much tighter the rings are.

Would you oil the receiver for the ring, or just the "bore side" of the barrel, or just baste it inside and out?

We'll be getting extra dry tonight, they're predicting -25, but the house is humidified.

[SOTSDO]

Even though the house is humidified, you'll still have an overwhelming amount of very dry air in the area, against which the humidifier has to work. You'll end up with air somewhere between that by the humidistat and that outside - still low enough to make the difference when it comes to something with a close fit like a clarinet joint ring.

I'd try the oil first, then the old standby of the orange peel in the micro environment of the case. And, then send me your marimba...

[SteveSklar]

-25 ?? Celsius or Fahrenheit ?? either way... it's too cold

and you wonder why i never visit Minnesota


yes, baste the entire thing .. might as well .. won't hurt. Just wipe off the excess the next day or 2.

and don't listen to Terry ... send me the Marimba and not to him :)

[Carl H.]

I'll have to give it a try after rehearsal tonight.

[Carl H.]

The basting has begun.

[clarnibass]

You say "both rings", but there are four...? Anyway, oiling and/or humidifying could (probably) help, but it could get loose again some other time, especially if you don't play for a few days and it's really cold and dry.

I had a loose lower joint ring. It would get very loose in the winter after not playing, and get tight in the summer especially after playing for a while. It is annoying to always make the sure instrument is oiled/humidified against the loose rings (and it doesn't always help).

If you find that the rings are still too loose after oiling, etc. then there are several methods to make them tight. I have tried most and prefer one over others. This is what I use when a customer is bringing an instrument with a loose ring. I can explain if you're interested.

Nitai

[Carl H.]

It is a new barrel, not a whole new clarinet. None of the rings on any other of my clarinets are loose, just this brand new, days from the factory barrel.

It sure is frustrating. But it plays well enough that I do not want it exchanged for a barrel that doesn't have loose rings.


I think you (Nitai) may have left out the description of your method in your post? I'm always interested in learning, so if you care to type it out I would gladly read it.

[Gandalfe]

I think you (Nitai) may have left out the description of your method in your post? I'm always interested in learning, so if you care to type it out I would gladly read it.Yes, me too. I was wondering if it were a trade secret that you didn't want to share universally. 8-)

[SteveSklar]

there's many methods out there listed in repair books. such as:

a sliver of cig paper under the rings (or other thin material)
a few drops of super glue (for that matter also epoxy)

for those with the normal small 1 ton press .. you can shrink the ring with the correct dies (easily available from places like Ferrees)

of course each provides their own benefits or problems etc

[tictactux]

I have had reasonably good success with PVA (aka "plain ol' white") glue. Just a teeny weeny bit is enough. It remains ever so slightly elastic and can easily enough be removed with water and or a bit of (moderate) heat.

I know such amateurish techniques will make me subject of frowning and ridicule worldwide. Be it.

[Carl H.]

24 hours later, the barrel is oily and the rings are just as loose as before. The other barrel I oiled at the same time has absorbed all the oil I applied to it's bore.

I don't think it is going to do anything, but I'll let it go till Sunday. I'll need it wiped off and "dry" by Tuesday evening again.

[clarnibass]

No secret! I just thought I wouldn't bother you with it in case the oiling works fine.

Basically there are several methods taught in books, etc.

The shrinking method. This requires a special tool that shrinks the ring. I don't really like this method because it is permanent (not actually permanent, but usually requires special tools, and not so easy to reverse). What if the clarinet gets to an area that is a lot hotter and more humid for example. I also consider this method overkill and unecessary.

There is the filler method (also described in books). This can be with paper, but I've heard of some repairers using a trash can bag, or even a t-shirt. It is ok, and the fact that this is ok pretty much proves the shrinking method is overkill. However the filler is usually not all around the ring, so it gets very tight in part of it, but actually will create gaps near that. Although I don't have any "proof" this is a problem.

Then there are all sorts of glues. Super glue is a little brittle and I don't think it is glued that good to even a little oily surfaces (which the socket might be). It is also not a great filler glue. So I don't prefer super glue. Epoxy might work, I haven't tried it. It is very strong, probably too strong to be easily removed.

The method I prefer I haven't read in any book, and was taught by another repairer (Gordon from NZ who post on SOTW and the clarinet forum). It is gluing the ring with shellac. Heat the ring, smear a thin layer of shellac all around the inside of it, and while the shellac is still soft enough to act as a filler, put the ring in place. The advantage is that it glues the ring but also acts as a filler, actually a very exact automatic filler, unlike the paper, etc. It is also very easy to remove/refill if the clarinet moves to a hotter or more humid area, or in extreme weather changes.

Another advantage of this method (to a customer) is that it is relatively fast and only requires tools that almost any repairer always have (nothing special or expensive like the shrinkning tools, etc.). This means a customer can wait a few minutes while this is done and it is also not expensive.

I guess you can use a different type of heat melting glue. Shellac is harder (when it cools) than other heat glues, so it gives more support to the ring, but another heat glue would work mostly the same with a bit more accomodation as a filler (not an issue IMO, so I prefer the extra support of shellac). For comparison, imagine leaning on a pillow, which is soft and will take the shape of your hand, and leaning on hard floor, which will not change but will support your hand much more.

Ben, I am not sure there is anything wrong with your method really. Maybe it is slower (takes longer to dry) and maybe less elastic than the sheallc (i.e. offers a bit less support).

Nitai

[jbtsax]

The method I was taught by a very experienced clarinet technician who works part time in our shop is to remove the ring and stretch a piece of black silk material over the opening. While holding the material tightly in place, reinsert the ring over the end of the barrel making sure it is going on straight. Then you firmly tap it into place using a rawhide or plastic mallet.

If one layer of material does not make it very snug you can double the silk, but this is usually not necessary. Once the ring is installed it is an easy matter to cut away the extra material with a single edge razor blade or exact-o knife. Sometimes pesky little threads can be burned off with a cigarette lighter.

As it was explained to me, the advantages of this method are:

-It puts even pressure all around the ring
-The material continues to allow the wood underneath to breathe
-Being a friction fit, the ring can be easily removed if needed
-It can easily adjusted in the future both for further shrinkage or expansion of the wood
-It is invisible

It should be noted that having loose rings on a clarinet does not encourage the wood to crack. If it is going to crack, the wood will crack whether or not the rings are tight. The purpose of the rings are to protect the ends of the joints and to be decorative.

John

[Carl H.]

48 hours
Bore and sockets oily, exterior has dry areas, rings still loose.

[Gandalfe]

I have been hearing from better musicians than I that the quality of the Buffet instruments have gone down since they were bought out. Apparently they have unskilled labor doing the work now. I wonder about this as I hear about the rings on your barrel. It really sounds like you are going to have to have the rings resized which is a shame.

It also means those of us with pre-sellout Buffet R-13's, like my Festival, have instruments that will retain their value.

[Merlin]

It's certainly not uncommon to have to shim barrel rings. If you've got some paper and a rawhide mallet, you've got all the tools you need.

Orange peels in the case will sometimes do just as well though.

[Carl H.]

I'm thinking I'll be using some parchment after I get the excess oil wiped off this weekend.

I looked at the barrel this Buffet is replacing, and it also has paper under the upper ring. It is a very nice barrel (SML) that plays wonderfully on my Buffet A clarinet, but is a touch short on the SML clarinet.

[Groovekiller]

Loose rings are a common problem on the best clarinets, especially in a dry climate. Here in Florida, we have the opposite problem - male tenon joints that swell so much that they won't go together all the way. I had to get special tools from Buffet to adjust the shoulders of clarinet tenons. Well, I didn't have to get the tools, there are other ways to solve the problem, but the Buffet tools make it quick and accurate.

There are lots of good suggestions here for loose rings. Most of them seem to be good ideas, and I learned some new ones - thanks.

[Carl H.]

72 hours

No change, oily inside, partially dry outside, the rings are still just as loose as ever.

[clarnibass]

It should be noted that having loose rings on a clarinet does not encourage the wood to crack. If it is going to crack, the wood will crack whether or not the rings are tight. The purpose of the rings are to protect the ends of the joints and to be decorative.
Hi John!

I'm sure the method you described is good.I only prefer the method with shellac because it puts the exact correct amount of filler all around, as opposed to the same thickness of filler (which might actually not put the same pressure all around). I'm really not sure this is significant, but I still go with the shellac method.

Re what I quoted above from your post, it's interesting since I heard the opposite from several repairers. Some say a clarinet will very rarely crack if there is a tight ring. Since cracks many times don't go all the way into the bore, I'm wondering if the lower part (bore end) of the crack even moves at all. So mayeb the ring helps, but doesn't prevent, the wood cracking exactly below it, which is a higher wood part of the body. But maybe it prevents cracks in the part it is covering in the socket, or the crack getting all the way into the bore next the ring.

I consider that the rings definitely helps against cracking. Esthetics is a much less important reason. They do protect the end of the bodies, but many times on the same clarinets there is nothing to protect the end of tenon, a much thinner and more sensitive place.

It really sounds like you are going to have to have the rings resized which is a shame.
He will not have to have the rings resized. There are several methods mentioned in this thread that I consider much better than resizing the rings.

I had to get special tools from Buffet to adjust the shoulders of clarinet tenons. Well, I didn't have to get the tools, there are other ways to solve the problem, but the Buffet tools make it quick and accurate.
Can you explain a bit more about these tools? How do they work, cost, etc? I just recently heard about a method to do this repair which I didn't think about before, and I'm looking more into it, but I never heard of these Buffet tools.

Thanks.

[jbtsax]

I believe that the large number of barrels observed by repair techs that have cracked while having tight rings in place would dispel the notion that rings prevent the wood from cracking. If this is indeed the case as I believe it is, putting equal pressure under the ring with shellac is a moot point.

John

[pete]

I'm not a repair guy, but I'd think that based on the number of barrels I've seen that don't have rings (http://www.wwbw.com/Morrie_Backun-Traditional_Cocobolo_Clarinet_Barrels-i751402.music?cm_mmc=GoogleBase-_-Morrie%20Backun-_-Woodwind%20Accessories_Clarinet%20Accessories_Clarinet%20Tuning%20Barrels-_-Traditional%20Cocobolo%20Clarinet%20Barrels&mr:trackingCode=19248DC6-70CD-DD11-8F1F-0019B9C2BEFD&mr:referralID=NA), I'd go with purely decorative.

You might be able to make the argument that if the horn doesn't have enough moisture, the rings will become loose that the rings are there to alert you of that fact. That sounds like a good reason. A bit of overkill, I'd say, but it's logical.

FWIW, one would think that the presence of the rings (JRR Tolkien flashback; Gandalfe must post more in this thread) could actually be a bad thing: if the horn swells from moisture, the rings can't expand and contract as easily as wood and thus a crack will result.

[Gandalfe]

I can't post more. With over 10, I really should count them sometime, sopranino and sop clarinets (remember Suzy uses half of them) I've never experienced this problem. Both us have lived in various parts of the world. Of course I'm not saying this doesn't happen. It just has never happened to us.
Gandalf: They are one; the ring and the Dark Lord. Frodo, he must never find it.
Frodo: [gets up to hide the ring] All right. We'll put it away. We'll keep it hidden, we'll never speak of it again. No one knows it's here, do they?
[Gandalf doesn't answer]
Frodo: Do they, Gandalf?

[clarnibass]

I believe that the large number of barrels observed by repair techs that have cracked while having tight rings in place would dispel the notion that rings prevent the wood from cracking. If this is indeed the case as I believe it is, putting equal pressure under the ring with shellac is a moot point.
Good point, but actually very few of the cracked barrels I've seen (with tight rings) had the crack all the way to the end, under the rings, or all the way into the bore (I think I only remember one of each). Also, by far most cracked barrels I've seen had at least one loose ring (sometimes both) when the crack closed. Usually (i.e. almost always) the crack is actually from ring to ring, and not deeper than the half the body thickness (i.e. above the wood scoket part). I think it's possible that tight ring help against cracks getting deeper and into the ends under the rings.

But from your reply I see I wasn't clear. I didn't mean euqal pressure (actually support) with shellac because of this at all. The reason I prefer the equal support of shellac is that it doesn't put too much pressure on the wood or the ring. Another method where you can't really control the amount of pressure will possibly have the ring too tight.

[Carl H.]

No change as of last night when I wiped off the excess oil. The top ring will get the parchment treatment as it is still fall of on its own loose. The bottom ring isn't, and never was, as loose as the upper. I think I'll use hide glue for it since I am familiar with it.

[Carl H.]

Well that was embarrassing.
I went to rehearsal last night. Guess what I left home on the bench.:roll:

(All 3 barrels)

[Carl H.]

I'll add that I used other instruments till Tuesdays rehearsal to let the oil just soak up as thoroughly as possible.

No change at all in the rings being loose.

How could they have left the factory this loose? I see it in Selmer barrels too. Is the company that makes STM ligs for Babbit now making clarinet rings and fitting them?

[clarnibass]

It's likely that the rings were tight when they left the factory and are now loose because of different tempeture and humidity. You should just make them tight by one of the possible methods (as I mentioned, my preferred method is gluing them with shellac).

[Tammi]

Boy do I feel like an idiot. I just use a little Elmers Glue-All. :oops:
It's more 'elastic' and seems to shrink and swell with the wood.

[tictactux]

Boy do I feel like an idiot. I just use a little Elmers Glue-All. :oops:
It's more 'elastic' and seems to shrink and swell with the wood.
Same here. Except that I stopped feeling like an idiot. 8-)