Do Vocals help your playing?

[kfrank1]

I've heard the rational that it does and that in Italy flute players are required to take vocal lessons.

But I was wondering whether anyone can say whether or not vocals has helped their playing from personal experience.

At the moment learning vocals is just a pipe dream, something I might work on while driving the car but it may not be such a crazy idea if it does help ones reed playing.

Also what is the longevity of a singer, not necessarily professional but amateur. My impression is that your vocals would give out relatively early compared to woodwinds.

[tictactux]

I think the trick is to learn to open your throat. We occasionally sing during warmup, just to loosen our throats, get the "hum" into our ears and heads and get a feeling of listening to each other (much more difficult than when you have to press three keys and out pops the G) in order to get in tune.

[Gandalfe]

My favorite instructors have always encouraged learning to sing a song that you were going to do a solo on. I sang all the way to Jr. High School but it always hurt my throat. But sometimes I'll sing a song a bit that I'm working on and it really seems to help in most cases.

[stefank]

Singing has quite a few benefits, some of which are:

a) Breathing - singers and wind players should be breathing in the same way, and learning/practising the correct technique for one should be beneficial to the other.

b) Reading - go sing in a choir that reads its music (as opposed to having the notes "bashed" in one at a time) and you should find (after a while) that it does your sightreading a lot of good, particularly in regard to being able to "hear" the next note in your mind before you attempt to play it.

c) Memorisation/Transposition - if I can sing a tune from memory, it's usually a fairly easy task for me to transfer that to an instrument. Similarly I can transpose it to another key more easily than one that I haven't internalised and am reading (and my reading is generally much better than my "by ear" playing).

[SOTSDO]

Mygroup plays about 90% vocals - in fact , other than during the dinner hour and as the occasional set closer circumstance, I'd say that we play 99.9% vocals the rest of the time

Of my vocalists at present, four of five also play horns, piano or precussion. I like doubled up folks because they 1) serve as useful backups/ augmentation, and 2) automatically can read music (a big plus when learning new tunes in a hurry).

Having said that, I don't think that they are that better of musicians for it. Perhaps a bit better in touch with the fundamentals and such but only that.

As far as how durable they are, I've never allowed any vocalist to sing more than 25% of a typical gig's tune. If I am short staffed that night, I'll add instrumentals to make up the difference. With rock and pop, it's all too easy for them to get louder out if they go any longer. In fact, for a New Year's Eve, I have preferred to carry three girls if at all possible.

Please excuse the brevity and grammatic errors; I'm posting this from a bar where we're looking over a not-all-that-good Elvis impersonator. We've still got an hour and a half to go (insert frown face here)...

[pete]

Singing has quite a few benefits, some of which are:

a) Breathing - singers and wind players should be breathing in the same way, and learning/practising the correct technique for one should be beneficial to the other.

b) Reading - go sing in a choir that reads its music (as opposed to having the notes "bashed" in one at a time) and you should find (after a while) that it does your sightreading a lot of good, particularly in regard to being able to "hear" the next note in your mind before you attempt to play it.

c) Memorisation/Transposition - if I can sing a tune from memory, it's usually a fairly easy task for me to transfer that to an instrument. Similarly I can transpose it to another key more easily than one that I haven't internalised and am reading (and my reading is generally much better than my "by ear" playing).
While it is *possible* that I've always done it wrong, I always felt that breathing for vocalists is different. Now, mind you, I also played saxophones and clarinets.

One definite thing is that you're still playing with the diaphragm and lungs. You don't have to worry about tonguing. You do have to worry about pitch.

On a woodwind -- and probably on any wind instrument -- it is easier to hit a pitch accurately if you are visualizing the pitch and trying to play it. You also have to worry about how you're moving your mouth. Just like when you're singing.

One way to know if you're not singing properly is if your throat hurts after singing. That means that you either are singing from your throat, as opposed to your gut, or you're singing something out of your range. Or both.

Maybe more later ....

[stefank]

While it is *possible* that I've always done it wrong, I always felt that breathing for vocalists is different. Now, mind you, I also played saxophones and clarinets.

One definite thing is that you're still playing with the diaphragm and lungs. You don't have to worry about tonguing. You do have to worry about pitch.

On a woodwind -- and probably on any wind instrument -- it is easier to hit a pitch accurately if you are visualizing the pitch and trying to play it. You also have to worry about how you're moving your mouth. Just like when you're singing.

One way to know if you're not singing properly is if your throat hurts after singing. That means that you either are singing from your throat, as opposed to your gut, or you're singing something out of your range. Or both.

Maybe more later ....

That's interesting Pete. When I was studying my flute teacher and choral director were singing the same tune (at least from the neck down) which was (very basically) keep the throat open, the ribcage out, and support from below that.

Cheers,

Stefan

[pete]

It's sorta like the concentration is different.

For playing, I'm using the gut like a bellows. For singing, I'm using it like a big pillar of air. Support's the word, rather than quantity.

When I started actually taking singing lessons from professionals, I noted this difference.

If I sing like I played, my throat gets worn out pretty quickly. However, I think that if I played like I sing, that'd work. To an extent.

(BTB, I used to play low saxophones; mainly bari, but bass, too and low clarinets; bass and contrabass.)

[Al Stevens]

Of my vocalists at present, four of five also play horns, piano or precussion. I like doubled up folks because they 1) serve as useful backups/ augmentation, and 2) automatically can read music

...and 3) represent one salary where there would otherwise be two.

[Al Stevens]

Singing a song helps my playing of the song.

(The melody is only half the composition. The story is incomplete without the lyrics.)

I find that I phrase lines more creatively when improvising if I have both the melody and words in my head. I find that I play a melody more readily by ear if I have already learned to sing it.

[Dave Dolson]

I agree with Al. I sing a few songs with the band with whom I play, and most of the others in the band do, too. I haven't found that doing vocals helps me physically, but it sure helps everyone understand the tune better. And, the audiences seem to like hearing the lyrics - helps them understand the tune. DAVE

[Al Stevens]

Here's another way singing helps my playing. Because I sing, I get more gigs. More gigs helps my playing.

[SOTSDO]

...and 3) represent one salary where there would otherwise be two.

More like a better chance to have a backup for a sideman position, than to have them both sing and play on the same job. I do have a guitarist who also sings on Walt Stuart's version of Mac The Knife, and I do occassionally employ a singer who plays the trombone solos on Marie and I've Got You Under My Skin, but that's it.

The local contract doesn't specify any spif for doing vocals in addition to the normal sideman share.

[SteveSklar]

i always thought it was good for me to improve my ear training. especially the ear training to develop in regards to various "tones" of the same note

i'm not much of a vocal person though .. so i mostly hum

[kfrank1]

As far as how durable they are, I've never allowed any vocalist to sing more than 25% of a typical gig's tune. If I am short staffed that night, I'll add instrumentals to make up the difference. With rock and pop, it's all too easy for them to get louder out if they go any longer. In fact, for a New Year's Eve, I have preferred to carry three girls if at all possible.
Actually by longevity I meant in terms of age. It seems like singers retire several years before they pass on, whereas woodwind players seem to be able to keep on playing.

[SOTSDO]

Well, none of mine have died yet, so it's hard for me to give an informed opinion.

One of them is a bit shady, so I could probably arrange to have one of them offed. But, that's not your intent, I imagine.

[Carl H.]

If most of the band are male, and the vocalist is a single attractive female of questionable morals and minimal clothing, I could see where rehearsal attendance might greatly improve, thus improving the over all playing of the group.

Music is music, regardless of your medium. Some can, some can't.

[stefank]

If most of the band are male, and the vocalist is a single attractive female of questionable morals and minimal clothing, I could see where rehearsal attendance might greatly improve, thus improving the over all playing of the group.

Music is music, regardless of your medium. Some can, some can't.

This may not work as intended. Apparently Sir Thomas Beecham was once asked why he would not have women playing in his orchestra. His reply was something like: "If they're ugly the men won't play next to them, and if they're good looking they can't".

[sideC]

Singing a song helps my playing of the song.

(The melody is only half the composition. The story is incomplete without the lyrics.)

I find that I phrase lines more creatively when improvising if I have both the melody and words in my head. I find that I play a melody more readily by ear if I have already learned to sing it.


I agree 100%

[Notes_Norton]

Singing helps my sax soloing and saxophone has helped my singing.

Everything you learn about music helps. And remember, when you playing your instrument, it is your voice, and you should be "singing" with that voice.

Learning to play guitar, wind synth, bass, and keyboards also helped my sax playing, but not as much as singing.

Insights and incites by Notes

[PrincessJ]

I'm one of those in car, in shower, multi-tasking singers. I was never that great of a singer until I picked up the lovely clarinet, where, as previously mentioned in this thread, I learned to open my throat. My vocal tone, control, and intonation has improved drastically.
I took a couple vocal lessons when I was a wee little girl, and dropped out in disgust at my alto-squawk. That's all changed.

[pete]

You now have a bass squawk?

(Kidding. Kidding. Hey, I've been in more than one choir that had a couple female bass singers.)

My 7 year old daughter has been learning how to play piano. She is also being taught to match the pitches with her voice. She's doing pretty good at it.

IMO, most, if not all, musicians probably have some bit of music floating through their heads all the time. Vocalizing it just makes me feel good. I feel better when I can hit the right notes, though.

One thing I always thought interesting is that one of the gentlemen I took sax lessons from wasn't a singer at all, but he was able to compose some nice vocal harmonies. I'd think that would be rather difficult if you can't sing. That's different from the folks that compose vocal parts because they either just hate a particular voice (bass or soprano way too high or low is the norm) or they just don't care what the range is.

[PrincessJ]

No, pete. The bass squawk comes from the bass clarinet. ;) I now have a clean alto with a limited range, better than the sounds frequently mistaken for a wounded animal with a nasal congestion issue. (he heh)
I always have a little symphony in my brain, they play constantly. I get a lot of ideas from the streaming radio that is my original subconscious. Being a frequent improvisational pianist/quasi-composer, it sure does come in handy.
I guess your sax teacher has a wide understanding of the limits and capabilities of singers, and used that in his works. It makes a lot of sense to me.

[pete thomas]

Singing will help your aural abilities, which helps your playing (intonation especially). It helps any impro you might do, but otherwise it also helps with phrasing.

As Al mentioned, if you are playing commercial gigs, being able to sing some songs as well as play will no doubt get you more gigs.

Also if you want to do the singing while flute playing a la Roland Kirk, it would help if you can sing.

Thumbs up all round IMO to singing lessons.

[saxhound]

OT - Pete, how did you get a custom title after 8 posts? I smell a payoff!

BOT - I really wish I had learned to sing when I was younger. I do a little back-up singing here and there, but have a really limited (low tenor) range. I do sing quite a bit when I am arranging. My better half thinks I am down in the basement talking to myself.

[Gandalfe]

OT - Pete, how did you get a custom title after 8 posts? I smell a payoff!Pete has no control over me. This is fortunate as he would have banned me by now if he did me thinks. 8-)

I give people I know personally who are in the business an avatar and custom title when they join. Examples include Pete Thomas and Dave Kessler. Most appreciate it and it helps us put a face to a name.

[pete]

OT - Pete, how did you get a custom title after 8 posts? I smell a payoff!
That reminds me, Mr. T: you're late on your payment.

Ooops.

The official explanation is at http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1877. We've been a bit behind on da titles. I'm still pushing to give people titles that I find amusing. I've been voted down on that a couple times, tho.

[WoodwindDoubler]

I would say singing helps my playing and playing helps my singing.

I'm not sure if it's because I sang for so long before I played - soloist, choirs (trickier inner parts were my fav), musical theatre, sight singing, I find singing helps my playing because I "sing" or hear the pitches of the notes in my ear while I'm playing / a split second before I play the note.

Also, I personally find, I don't really KNOW a part unless I can sing it in pitch/time without the horn.


Because I don't sing as much now - so much so I don't call myself a "singer" anymore - I find that playing helps my singing because after a little time with the horn, when I go to sing my sound/pitch/support is exponentially better than if I just warmed up my voice without playing my horn.

[tictactux]

I do sing quite a bit when I am arranging. My better half thinks I am down in the basement talking to myself.
You're arranging rap songs? :biggrin:

FWIW I sing once in a while while playing. That's a funny way of a) opening your throat and b) de-couple brain stem from playing. Like a drummer doing crotchets with one hand and and triplet minims with the other.

Now there's an idea, play a tune and sing/growl the counter-melody at the same time...

[saxhound]

You're arranging rap songs? :biggrin:

Bite your tongue! Besides, that is an oxymoron.

I do a lot of arranging (actually transcribing) from old big band recordings and 60's and 70's horn bands. One of the hardest things for me to pick out is a walking bass line, especially if the player is a little free with their interpretation of the chords. I put my headphones on with the bass cranked up, and sing along with the part a few times before I attempt to notate it.

[retread]

Vocals must help my playing. When I sing, after just a few notes people demand that I go back to playing.

[pete]

Vocals must help my playing. When I sing, after just a few notes people demand that I go back to playing.
Color me surprised that no one used this line earlier ....

[PrincessJ]

I'm no stranger to that experience.
I've been experimenting with singing a few notes and scales before practicing, occasionally singing a scale before playing it, as loud and open as possible (locked in an insulated room of course) and it's been helping my tone tremendously. I'd reccomend it to anyone that either lives alone (or has access to lots of privacy), or sings well. It really works (but don't hurt yourself).

[pete]

As a saxophonist/clarinetist turned into a singer, I do have a note along the lines of what PJ mentions: don't hurt yourself.

I've mentioned before that I have a relatively wide vocal range. However, if I'm really a bass (I am) and I decide to sing a lot of tenor I (i.e. "really high") and I'm doing it wrong, I'm going to start damaging my vocal chords. At the very least, this will take some steps off your range and, at the most, you'll end up sounding like Bea Arthur. (Which is good for some types of music, I suppose ....)

When I first started singing, as a church musician, I noticed that it was difficult to get through four or five services on a weekend (i.e. about 2.5 hours of singing) because my throat couldn't handle it: I would either have a 1/2 octave range or just couldn't sing, period. When I started taking lessons and finding out how to hit notes correctly, I had no problems at all singing 2.5 hours. Well, unless I was singing tenor I. Hey, I only did that when a majority of the tenor Is weren't there. That wasn't more than about 4 weekends a month.

[PrincessJ]

And the scary part is, sometimes you don't know you're hurting yourself. You'll be singing either too high, too loud, too low, too something, and you won't feel the pain right away, so you have to know your limits. Speak with a vocal coach if possible, do your best to determine your natural range and tone, what you can and can't do with it, etc.
And, obviously, if it hurts, don't sing that way.