What kind of Clarinet

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

I just joined this group and a few others and I am excited about starting the clarinet again. I was a very good clarinetist back in the late 60’s. I went to the High School of Performing Arts and then I was in the Army Band playing Clarinet and Sax (tenor) and later on the Electric Bass. Once I left the service I got married to a lady trumpet player I knew at Performing Arts.

We both stopped playing. Back in the 70’s I went back into music learning keyboards so I can write and have been doing that on and off since then. I write a lot of songs and have a few jingles running (well I know of one, make that two that are still running).

Recently I convinced my wife to start playing her trumpet again and she loves it. She suggested I get a clarinet. I do have a Yamaha WX5 and the VL70-M Modeling synth but she wants me to have a real one to play duets with her and perhaps play in an ensemble or orchestral band locally.
So, my question to you is what is the cheapest I can get away with to get a decent Clarinet? I always had a Buffett (had to sell it and my Mark 6 Tenor to pay the mortgage in the 70’s) but I know I cannot afford one now. So any suggestions? I want to keep it under $500.00 if I can.

Thanks,
Steve Lewis

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: Welcome to the site.

I fear any response will be very subjective, but MY advice would be to buy the best WOODEN clarinet you can find; stick to Bb soprano, stick to Boehm System; make sure the horn is defect-free (meaning it seals, etc.), and make sure you select a top-notch mouthpiece for it.

Brands I'd consider would be Buffet (that's what I usually play), Yamaha, LeBlanc, Selmer, and a few others (like Patricola - I played some very nice ones at last year's NAMM Show).

Used will be your best bet at getting close to your financial goal, but believe me, the more you spend, the better off you will be (within reason, of course - yes, you'll hear stories of someone getting a great Buffet for $450, etc., etc.) - meaning, buy quality, not price.

Search the site for other brands (like Vito, and some others that escape my memory). DAVE

[retread]

Steve, you might also check the clarinets for sale on the Sax on the Web forum. http://forum.saxontheweb.net

[Gandalfe]

With your budget I recommend the Leblanc Bliss (http://kesslermusic.com/SelmerLeblanc/backun/bliss.htm) at Kessler Music. If you don't live in Nevada you will get a brand new state of the art instrument for around $550 and with no shipping or tax charge.

I've bought many instruments from Dave and his dad Chuck Kessler and the instruments always come tweaked out to the max.

http://kesslermusic.com/SelmerLeblanc/LB320/small/gtonehole_small.jpg http://kesslermusic.com/SelmerLeblanc/LB320/small/thumb_small.jpg http://kesslermusic.com/SelmerLeblanc/LB320/small/logo_small.jpg http://kesslermusic.com/SelmerLeblanc/LB320/small/incase_small.jpg

[Carl H.]

If you want to play in an orchestra, you will need both a Bb and an A clarinet. There was a pair of nice instruments for sale on SOTW, by Dixiesax I believe, which looked like an incredible bargain for somebody in the market for a pair.

Here is the link. (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=100702)

[AMBeck]

You have some options in that price range. Personally I like the older professional Leblancs. They are as good as Buffets, usually with better intonation, and generally cost less because they don't have the Buffet reputation. A LL will probably run you more than $500, but a nice Symphonie (or Symphonie Model, Symphonie II or Symphonie 3), a Classic (or Classic II) would be a good professional level horn for around $4-500. If possible, play before you buy, a lot of older clarinets have seen more than their share of abuse, and a few were runts to begin with.

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Thanks for the input. Now I'm really confused. Just kidding. One of the things I realized with the few Clarinets I had as a teenager/early adult was the quality of the sound and the action of the keys. The beginner Clarinets then were noticeably inferior back then. Is that the case now? I loved my Buffet and the sound it gave me. I do not need a Clarinet for it's name. If I can get the action and the quality of sound I don't care what it is made of. I have played plastic Clarinets in the 60's when I was in the Army Band and the action and sound of them were awful.

I guess I need to get to a place and try out some eh? Where the heck do you do that now? When I was young I went to 48th. Street. I guess I have to go back there again.

Thanks,
Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: I agree with your theory behind comment about not caring from what the horn is made as long as it sounds good. I have an old Silver King clarinet (rated as maybe the best of the metal clarinets) and whaddayaknow? It sounds like a clarinet!!

Last week while I was at Scimonetti's shop waiting for the tech to strengthen a spring on my Buffet, I noodled on three new student-level clarinets that were on display (plastic and some other unknown material). They played decently enough (for my needs). But, I'm spoiled when it comes to good gear and I would not buy something like that when I already have good instruments. Even if they may sound decent enough, a well-set up wooden clarinet will be MUCH better than the cheapies.

I guess it is all a matter of taste. If it were me, I'd buy the best i could and not settle for anything less. I see you live in NJ - doesn't USA Horns sell clarinets? Also, there probably are still shops in Manhattan but it has been at least ten years since I've done that place. DAVE

[SOTSDO]

If you want to play in an orchestra, you will need both a Bb and an A clarinet.

I dunno about that. I've owned a pair since I was in high school, but even when I was doing some relatively heavy orchestra work, I would say that the A only came out of the box about 15% to 20% of the time. And, all the while, I played alongside of many very capable players who transposed everything on the Bb horn in these orchestras, just as I had to do on those rare occasions when an A bass clarinet part came up in the rotation.

While most folks who are "serious" about their classical music on the clarinet will own a pair, those who are only pointed towards pop and concert band work will get along just fine without one.

And don't get me started on bass clarinets pitched in A...

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Well I found a clarinet. I would not use it but I thought you'd be interested. 20 or more years ago I got a Three Star Metal Clarinet at an antique store and by golly it is still in my basement. It is in bad bad shape. I did some preliminary lookup on it and they are still around in the marketplace.

The one I have is totally useless. It needs new pads, springs and some banging out and polishing. But even if I put that money into it I'm sure it will not have the sound I want. Just thought you'd be interested.

If you want I can post a picture of it. I'm still up in the air on what to buy. I know what I'd like to buy (only for looks. I don't know how they play). I love the look of the Patricola Rosewood Clarinet. And even if it great I can't afford it.

Steve

[pete]

I'm a big fan of the "mahogany" Conn clarinets that were made during WWII. VERY pretty horns. I've heard too many reports that they're not good players, tho.

"Looks" are highly subjective and mean absolutely nothing to how your clarinet sounds.

You've got a very good budget, if you don't mind used. I'm a fan of the Yamahas. Hey, eBay's got a shiny warrantied one for $399, buy-it-now. (http://cgi.ebay.com/CERTIFIED-YAMAHA-Bb-YCL-34-YCL34-WOOD-CLARINET_W0QQitemZ280309541814QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item280309541814&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50) It also comes with a very decent mouthpiece, the Vandoren B45.

I've never had any need to play an A clarinet. Yes, some orchestral stuff does call for one and if you were a pro symphonic player, you'd probably want one.

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Well I've made up my mind on what to buy. Not the actual Clarinet yet but I'm going to sell a bunch of things on eBay (music stuff) and get enough money to buy whatever I want :).

Then I'll have the big choice of what to buy. I'm leaning to the Buffet but I really like the Patricola. It's going to be a hard choice. Well not hard if the Patricola isn't a great instrument. But if it is equal to the Buffet I might just get that.

Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: Like I reported above, I really liked the Patricola models I played at NAMM. However, I liked the Buffets, too, but they were extremely expensive (I thought). I own one, but I bought it new in 1985 (in London at Howarth's) so I didn't pay today's prices.

AND, when I tested clarinets to purchase, I found huge differences among them, even among three Buffet RC Prestiges I tried. I bought what I thought was the best of the bunch and I've never been sorry I did.

Unless you have access to a store with many clarinets to try or a bottomless wallet, buying one sight-unseen can be risky, in my view. It may be worth your effort to call around the country and locate someone who has several. Then fly there and try them. At today's prices, it would less expensive to travel to the horns than to buy one you don't like.

OR, you could buy used from someone who has a return policy. DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Hi all,

Just spent about 2 weeks in the hospital. My wife has offered to give me 1/2 the price of a clarinet. I'm figuring that I will try to get one about the 2000.00 mark. I should be able to get one at that price

Steve

[Gandalfe]

Bad news about the hospital. Hope everything is better now.

[SOTSDO]

Hey, go out and break a leg and get back in the hospital again – she'll then give you 100% of the price of a clarinet. Think outside the box!

[Ed Svoboda]

I hope you are recovering nicely.

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Well, breaking a leg is out of the question but I have a friend in Italy and he's going to find out what the Patricola CL1 costs local to the plant. Still probably too much ....Sigh..... There are a lot of R13's for sale on the auction sites but I'm unsure whether or not to trust them.

Steve

[pete]

If you're looking at an R13, you should just look for a reputable dealer. They really don't mark up horns as much (or at all) as people think -- primarily because they know eBay's out there. Just find a dealer that a) offers a trial policy and b) sells overhauled instruments.

Our own SteveSklar might have some for sale, but there aren't any listed on his website. JunkDude.com's generally got things that are interesting, too.

$2K is a lot of money for a clarinet.

My #1 opinion for you is that you should hook up with a decent mouthpiece and go to a local dealership that has some of the horns you think you'd want and try 'em. Hey, we can give you lots of opinions, but you have to find yourself a horn that fits you best -- especially because your budget for this has changed from $500 (student/intermediate clarinet range) to $2K (professional clarinet range).

Additionally, it doesn't look like you actually have experience playing clarinet. It might be better to get a decent clarinet (like that YCL-34 I mentioned) and spend the remainder on a good mouthpiece (like my Selmer C85 or a Vandoren B40/45) and lessons.

The R13's a great horn, but if I have no experience playing clarinet, any decent clarinet's good enough. A decent teacher is a better investment.

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Just to let everyone know that I am or should say was an accomplished Clarinetist. 1st Chair in the High School of Performing Arts and First Chair in the 1st New York Army Band.

My original Clarinet was a Buffet (top of the line. I believe it was the R13 but it was tooooo many years ago). I might have said that I sold this in the 70's to pay my mortgage. I sold it for about $400.00.

I know it will take months of practicing if not more to get my chops up if even I can. I have still been playing so my reading is still top notch. I was a great reader of clarinet and was able to transpose for A, C and Eb instruments on the fly. I'm not bragging but I believe I can get close to where I was with some hard work.

Now back to the instrument. I really want the Patricola. I'd like the CL5 but I think I have to stick, money wise, with the CL1. I do want to investigate any and all reviews of this instrument because for the first time in my life I will purchase one without playing it first. Pretty scary for me but I bought many Electric Bass's and Guitars without playing them and never was unsatisfied.

Actually my Buffet was bought unseen from Carl Fischer when I was in High School. My father knew someone who knew someone and the Clarinet was top notch.

Please point me to any reviews bad or good.

Thanks,
Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: With all due respect, if that Buffet you once owned was purchased sight-unseen, and it played okay, AND you were satisfied with it, then that's all you know about clarinets (well, except to play one well, from your description of your skills back then).

But if you have several clarinets side by side and play them all, you will soon learn that you don't know much of anything about clarinets. No accurate assumptions can be made from other's reviews nor by marketing B.S.

I've purchased MANY instruments sight unseen, and for the most part, I ended up with good players. That doesn't mean much except that I was financially able to take risks like that. But even if those horns I bought sight-unseen turned out to be good players, they often are not my first-choice horns because after buying such horns, I learned there were even better ones out there. I learned THAT from trying others before I bought them and then playing them over time in public performances.

At this point, the best advice is for you try a bunch of different models yourself. You could line up several Buffets and while all of them will probably be good, some will be better than the others.

Just because the Patricola line LOOKS good (and admittedly, the ones I played were decent), that is not the criteria you should use in selecting a clarinet UNLESS YOU CAN AFFORD TO DO IT THAT WAY! Mail-order without return privileges is risky for someone on a budget. DAVE

[SteveSklar]

Steve,

I'm not at all familiar with the Patricola clarinets. I just perused their website and their rosewood clarinets look beautiful.

I noticed that the
5 - is a full boehm minus the low Eb
4 - is a full boehm including the low Eb
3 - regular 6 rings with the Eb lever
2 - regular 6 rings with the Eb lever

I wonder what the differences are between the 2 and the 3 ?

I have a FB clarinet - a 1950s Buffet pro model. I absolutely love it. It came in handy this past week when I was sitting in a college band - i sprained my right hand and my pinky wasn't very useful - so I covered everything with my left pinky.

I also have a partial boehm clarinet except with an inline C/G instead of the normal offset C/G ring - a Selmer CT.

anyone know of the retail prices of the Paricolas ?

but i certainly would want to play test some patricolas before deciding to actual buy one. I know buffet, and the approximate various tonal characteristics of various vintages. but i know nothing of patricolas. and if you don't kow anything about them then I recommend you try to find a place that has them first. You might want to make a short weekend vacation out of trying them somewhere.

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Agreed, sight unseen is not the best way to get a Clarinet. However I don't know of any place so far that have the Patricola's. I will try to find places of course and if anyone on this board knows of anyplace that has them please let me know.

Of course the money is a factor and so far I see the CL2 for no less than $2300.00. The R13 I've seen for no less than $2600.00 (scratch and dent from Musicians friend and other places). I know that the buffet is a good clarinet but unless I go to 48th street in Manhattan and start trying them I will have to trust the mail order system to purchase either the Buffet or the Patricola.

The other thing that makes me want to do mail order is the fact that I haven't played the clarinet in over 35 years. Will playing one now help me decide? Probably would not hurt eh? But can I really tell if that Clarinet is any better or worse than a mail order one? In my case I don't think so.

So, the next step is to ask another Clarinet player to try one out. I don't think Stanley Drucker or Stephen Topfer (his brother Alan went to PA with me) will take the time out to play it for me :-D. Just kidding though.

This is why I'm searching now and asking everyone I can ask what they think of the Patricola. If it is a good instrument, I believe that my chances of getting one directly from the manufacture is better than any other unknown brand. And of course I have to admit that the looks of the instrument has me drooling for it. I even want the rosewood color mouthpiece. I used to use a crystal mouthpiece that I don't even remember the name of but it is one that Pete Fountain used to play.

So, please beat me up, tell me I'm a fool or whatever. The more I hear from people that are on this board and other the better I can make a semi-informed decision.

I can't buy one today for sure. It will be at least a few weeks until I can afford it so my options are still open.

Geez, I don't even own a clarinet mouthpiece anymore. Actually I have a Contrabass Clarinet mouthpiece that came with me from the Army band many years ago but that isn't going to help me.

Keep sending me opinions.

Thanks,

Steve

[stevethemusicman]

Hi Steve,

I just received the Patricola catalog. the CL1 is an Eb Clarinet. the CL2 is their Bb Clarinet. The CL3 is a Virtuoso A Clarinet. The CL4 is a Virtuoso Bb Clarinet and the CL7 is a C Clarinet. Don't ask where the CL5 went to. It's not in their catalogue. The Virtusoso line are more expensive than the regular.

Steve Lewis



Steve,

I'm not at all familiar with the Patricola clarinets. I just perused their website and their rosewood clarinets look beautiful.

I noticed that the
5 - is a full boehm minus the low Eb
4 - is a full boehm including the low Eb
3 - regular 6 rings with the Eb lever
2 - regular 6 rings with the Eb lever

I wonder what the differences are between the 2 and the 3 ?

I have a FB clarinet - a 1950s Buffet pro model. I absolutely love it. It came in handy this past week when I was sitting in a college band - i sprained my right hand and my pinky wasn't very useful - so I covered everything with my left pinky.

I also have a partial boehm clarinet except with an inline C/G instead of the normal offset C/G ring - a Selmer CT.

anyone know of the retail prices of the Paricolas ?

but i certainly would want to play test some patricolas before deciding to actual buy one. I know buffet, and the approximate various tonal characteristics of various vintages. but i know nothing of patricolas. and if you don't kow anything about them then I recommend you try to find a place that has them first. You might want to make a short weekend vacation out of trying them somewhere.

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: I don't think anyone wants to beat you up, at least not me. But some of your replies failed to address the very good advice you've been given. All we can do is offer our advice, then hope it turns out good for you.

Have you tried Woodwind and Brasswind in Indiana? I recall seeing Patricola models in their catalogs. My last catalog from them (Fall '07) doesn't show that brand. I also dug out a Patricola brochure I picked up at NAMM '08. They show CL.4 and CL.5 "Virtuoso" models (Bb Boehm System) and the brochure claims all models (C, A, Bb, Eb) are available in Grenadilla and Rosewood, with choices of keywork (nickel, silver or gold-plate).

WW&BW has a return policy (at least they used to). A friend of mine just bought a new Yanagisawa SC991 soprano saxophone from them when he couldn't find a good price anywhere else. It would be worth a check. DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

I only mean beat me up figuratively. I'm not insulted or anything else negatively at all.

I'm only looking for advice. I tried wwbw.com and they seem to be out of business. Somehow I believe that they are now part of Musicians Friend and they don't have Patricola's, Anyone know of any other store that sells them. I have only found one muncywinds.com and I already have a question out to them asking them if they have them and are they in stock. Hopefully they have a return policy but I won't know till tomorrow at the minimum.

Please realize that I appreciate the advice and utilize any and all information given to me.

Thanks,

Steve

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

I put the Patricola catalogue on one of my sites to download

http://www.lewisobservatory.com/PatricolaCatalogue.pdf

Have fun looking.

It was sent to me by Patricola in Italy

Steve

[SOTSDO]

Don't ask where the CL5 went to. It's not in their catalogue.

Maybe it's that elusive G clarinet - oft discussed but seldom seen outside of Mittleurope?

(Just kidding...)

[Dave Dolson]

There's a so-called collector of seldom-seen instruments living in L.A.'s South Bay area who had a G-clarinet. I don't know if he still has it, but I was in a jam session with him a few years ago when he played it. Odd voice and even odder (is that a word?) look, that.

If WW&BW went out of bin'ess, it must have been just recently. I haven't seen any comments about it, but admit that I no longer visit that other site where such things are often discussed.

For those prices (Patricolas) I guess I'd much rather have a good, used R-13. Even buying a used one and then having it overhauled would probably be cheaper than a new Patricola. OH, I could be wrong, but the old crusty R-13 in my closet plays better than the new Patricolas I played at NAMM. Not that the Patricolas were bad, mind you - they did play good, but my old R-13 was better. DAVE

[Dave Dolson]

I just went to the WW&BW website - up and running. I did not check every page and all the small print, but they had a few Patricola clarinets shown. DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

I just went to the WW&BW website - up and running. I did not check every page and all the small print, but they had a few Patricola clarinets shown. DAVE

Hi Dave,

I did see the site. And I noticed in the email I got from Patricola that there is a dealer in New Jersey that might have them. There is also one in Long Island NY if necessary. I sent emails to all of them. Patricola also mentioned a few others. If anyone wants the names and addresses please send me an email and I'll forward them to you.

Thanks,

Steve

[pete]

Just to let everyone know that I am or should say was an accomplished Clarinetist. 1st Chair in the High School of Performing Arts and First Chair in the 1st New York Army Band.
Yah. I kinda missed that, so forgive. However, how long ago was that? Playing a clarinet really isn't like riding a bike. Playing sax doesn't = clarinet experience.

1970 = almost 40 years ago.

The R13 I've seen for no less than $2600.00 (scratch and dent from Musicians friend and other places).Yah. A used (http://usahorn.com/instView.usa?id=531&inst=Buffet+R-13+Clarinet+Wood) R13 can be purchased for under $2K. New? You're not gonna find one for that price.

I believe that you'll find some arguments that will suggest that a used R13 is superior to a new one and vice-versa. I haven't played enough R13's for my opinion to matter (2 Bb's and an A).

Back to my comment about 40 years ago: I mentioned that I'm a fan of Yamaha clarinets. These were just coming onto the market in the 1970's. They're worth a toot. Especially if you want to save some $. And I guarantee that almost any dealer will have the full model-range in stock.

I looked at my YCL-34 as being better than the Selmer Centered Tone I had, not quite as good as the Selmer Series 9 I occasionally played. The mid-1960's R13 I played was considerably nicer, but more difficult to keep in tune. Makes me wonder how good a Yamaha Custom clarinet is, as the YCL-34 was just the intermediate model.

However, the YCL-34 doesn't have the same feel/playibility characteristics as the Selmer Series 9 and the Series 9 doesn't have the same feel/playibility characteristics as the Centered Tone and none of them are like the R13.

Point: if you've never played a Patricola, it could be significantly different from what you're expecting. Like switching from a Yamaha to a Leblanc, for instance.

The CL4 is a Virtuoso Bb Clarinet and the CL7 is a C Clarinet. Don't ask where the CL5 went to.If you look at the Patricola website, the CL4 has a low Eb key ("full Boehm system") and the CL5 doesn't, as SteveSklar mentions. However, the random website I went to (http://www.muncywinds.com/home.php?cat=158) uses different descriptions and model numbers. YMMV.

I've also never heard of oiling a clarinet with "almond oil" (yes, that's on the Patricola website). Aromatic!

BTB, I did find a used Patricola HERE (http://www.muncywinds.com/product.php?productid=1337&cat=532&page=1). That means that you still might be able to find some.

[stevethemusicman]

Hi,

Yes, I saw the used Patricola on Muncy's site and I have an email out to them as well as other sites that sell in America. I am going to try one out before I purchase it. However I might be in a situation where I can try a Grenadilla and want to purchase a Rosewood.

The way I feel is that if the Grenadilla plays well why shouldn't the Rosewood play as well if not better. Actually I did see (unless I was dreaming) that the Rosewood has a better sound than the Grenadilla. Hopefully the sales company for Patricola in New Jersey has them in stock and I can try the one I am going to purchase. At this point in my life (I'm almost a senior citizen) if the quality of the instrument has an Infantesimal difference (better or worse) than a Buffet, I'll be ecstatic.

I'm that way with Guitars and Basses as well. I had a Fender Jazz Bass in the 60's and also sold it for my mortgage payments. When I decided to purchase a new Bass I actually played the Fender American Jazz Bass and found that I liked the Japanese version that is called the Active Jazz Bass. Sort of a Jazz bass neck and a precision bass pickups. With the electric Guitar I only liked the feel of the American Stratocaster and bought one. But when I wanted a Gibson 335 Dot I was just as happy with the sound and playability of Epiphone version of it (I have about 15 basses, guitars etc.). And for acoustic guitar I always wanted a Martin Dreadnought but liked the sound and feel of my Ovation Adamas.

I was also talking to my wife about a sax. I had a Selmer Mark 6 and, again, for the mortgage sold it but I am not interested in another Sax. If I need sax sounds for some of my songs I have the WX5 which is enough for the sound I need for a song and not the quality of the sound/instrument. But that is a different case than why I want a clarinet. I want a clarinet because I was good and it was my first major instrument.

So very much like the above it all comes down to whether it is first and foremost a quality instrument. And secondly does it feel and sound right for me.

So I have to try out a Particola before I make any decision and I will try one out somehow.

Enough babbling for now. I just love buying stuff.

Thanks,
Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: Just to keep this going, I'm not so sure that the body material (Rosewood, Grenadilla, silver-plated brass, hard rubber, etc.) makes much difference in how a clarinet sounds. This same discussion (argument?) goes on all the time with saxophones, and so it is with clarinets.

I say this because I own clarinets now in grenadilla, silver-plated brass, and hard rubber and they all sound like clarinets to me. I think the more important factors are bore and tone-hole design, the bore of the barrel, the set-up (how the pads seal), the mouthpiece, and the player.

Be especially aware when reading some company's marketing hype - that palaver is probably the least reliable in making purchasing decisions. DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Steve: Just to keep this going, I'm not so sure that the body material (Rosewood, Grenadilla, silver-plated brass, hard rubber, etc.) makes much difference in how a clarinet sounds. This same discussion (argument?) goes on all the time with saxophones, and so it is with clarinets.

I say this because I own clarinets now in grenadilla, silver-plated brass, and hard rubber and they all sound like clarinets to me. I think the more important factors are bore and tone-hole design, the bore of the barrel, the set-up (how the pads seal), the mouthpiece, and the player.

Be especially aware when reading some company's marketing hype - that palaver is probably the least reliable in making purchasing decisions. DAVE

Yes, you are right but I use others opinions to help me decide. However in the end I do what I feel is right and what my gut tells me. It's worked for my in about 90% of the cases for me.

Thanks,
Steve

[SteveSklar]

I definitely recommend trying them first. I assume they have the same bore design and such, just a different material. The music on their website certainly is intriguing as the instrument has a very distinctive "ring" to it ... more like the 1960s era R13s.

To some, the material does make a difference - but more importantly the setup. But i will be experimenting with that directly myself soon in the sense of barrels.

Sensitivity to ones instrument requires alot of training. I've learned alot over time .. just try working with people in Symphony Orchestras ... it will enlighten one quite quickly on how many so minor items, which are "normal" for most people have to be attended to.

Resistance varies based on bore and tone hole design (and the tubes sticking in them).. also one can feel resistance between the upper and lower joint if they are not matched well. Certain tonal characteristics are associated with particular brands (barrel, bore, tonehole design, bell, etc) -- in addition to select woods.

Not all wood is the same as i've been learning. I had two 2x2x12 inch bars of grenadilla in my hand. one weighed easily one more pound than the other one ... why ? density I would assume. I bought the heavier one !!
but maybe some time i'll be able to experiment with different density woods too.

but as Dave says, marketing hype is that. One can't go by what a company says but have to play test it to make sure it fits to what your expectations are and what you want.

I'd play it first ... and the rosewood clarinet looks gorgeous too !!

all top end clarinets you can expect exceptional quality .. Buffet, Selmer Paris, Yamaha, Leblanc, Patricola, etc. The setup is so more important after the initial build. MuncyWinds also sells Patricola, which I would prefer MuncyWinds over WWBW. Price in inline with a regular R13 too

[stevethemusicman]

I definitely recommend trying them first. I assume they have the same bore design and such, just a different material. The music on their website certainly is intriguing as the instrument has a very distinctive "ring" to it ... more like the 1960s era R13s.

To some, the material does make a difference - but more importantly the setup. But i will be experimenting with that directly myself soon in the sense of barrels.

Sensitivity to ones instrument requires alot of training. I've learned alot over time .. just try working with people in Symphony Orchestras ... it will enlighten one quite quickly on how many so minor items, which are "normal" for most people have to be attended to.

Resistance varies based on bore and tone hole design (and the tubes sticking in them).. also one can feel resistance between the upper and lower joint if they are not matched well. Certain tonal characteristics are associated with particular brands (barrel, bore, tonehole design, bell, etc) -- in addition to select woods.

Not all wood is the same as i've been learning. I had two 2x2x12 inch bars of grenadilla in my hand. one weighed easily one more pound than the other one ... why ? density I would assume. I bought the heavier one !!
but maybe some time i'll be able to experiment with different density woods too.

but as Dave says, marketing hype is that. One can't go by what a company says but have to play test it to make sure it fits to what your expectations are and what you want.

I'd play it first ... and the rosewood clarinet looks gorgeous too !!

all top end clarinets you can expect exceptional quality .. Buffet, Selmer Paris, Yamaha, Leblanc, Patricola, etc. The setup is so more important after the initial build. MuncyWinds also sells Patricola, which I would prefer MuncyWinds over WWBW. Price in inline with a regular R13 too

Hi Steve,

Yes, trying it is important. I found one at Muncy and I'm going to have them ship it to me. It is $2600.00 and they'll send it on a trial. It is the rosewood and it looks great to me. Now I have to figure out what mouthpiece to get. I'll post another thread for ideas from people. It has been so long that I'm not too sure what kind of mouthpiece (Crystal) I had and what opening I had and what is available.

Thanks for everyone's help,
Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Mouthpieces?!?!? OH NO!!!! DAVE

[SteveSklar]

Hi Steve,

Yes, trying it is important. I found one at Muncy and I'm going to have them ship it to me. It is $2600.00 and they'll send it on a trial. It is the rosewood and it looks great to me. Now I have to figure out what mouthpiece to get. I'll post another thread for ideas from people. It has been so long that I'm not too sure what kind of mouthpiece (Crystal) I had and what opening I had and what is available.

Thanks for everyone's help,
Steve

Steve,

You probably had an OBrien crystal mouthpiece.

they vary like a box of chocolates
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clmpcOBrien.htm

I have 3 primary OBriens that I use - they can't be as far apart in design than one can imagine.

[stevethemusicman]

Steve,

You probably had an OBrien crystal mouthpiece.

they vary like a box of chocolates
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clmpcOBrien.htm

I have 3 primary OBriens that I use - they can't be as far apart in design than one can imagine.

You are right. It was an Obrien. My memory is gone eh? I will take a look at the link you sent.

Thanks

Steve

[pete]

Steve: Just to keep this going, I'm not so sure that the body material (Rosewood, Grenadilla, silver-plated brass, hard rubber, etc.) makes much difference in how a clarinet sounds. This same discussion (argument?) goes on all the time with saxophones, and so it is with clarinets.
I'd say that's the case with ALL instruments, not just sax and clarinet.

I've mentioned, as far as flutes go, there seems to be some evidence that wall thickness and the amount of toneholes make a larger difference in sound than material.

IMO, people are trying to compare a wind instrument to a violin or other stringed instruments that happen to have a resonating chamber. The material that the resonating chamber is made out of really does make a difference for these instruments, but a clarinet is not a violin.

FWIW, my overall opinion isn't that the material makes the difference for clarinets but it's because most professional quality clarinets are made out of wood that people think wood = better sounding. They should be thinking professional model > student model.

I *believe* someone here mentioned that one of the Buffet student instruments has the same bore as their R13 (the only measurements I can find on the B12 is 14.65mm and the R13 at 14.60, but the other specs (http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments.php?mode=productSpecifications&pid=722) are quite close and SteveSklar (http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clbore.htm) sees measurements of 14.64, so YMMV).

And the Buffet student horns are pretty nice.

Metal? I dunno. The horn I had was a Pan American. Not exactly professional-level. There have been a whole bunch of pro-quality silver or silver plated horns.

It's not the material, it's the model. Hey, who cares what it's made out of if it plays like garbage? (Unless you enjoy playing Garbage, that is.)

I've already mentioned the importance of a good mouthpiece, several times. IMO, a good mouthpiece is at least equal to choosing which horn you want, if not more so. Hey, my C85 makes my wife's 1981 Selmer Signet sound like a Series 9. It's made several plastic horns sing, too.

[clarnibass]

I'd say that's the case with ALL instruments, not just sax and clarinet.
I think you meant all wind instruments? For some instruments the material is critical for the sound (percussion, strings, etc.).

FWIW, my overall opinion isn't that the material makes the difference for clarinets but it's because most professional quality clarinets are made out of wood that people think wood = better sounding. They should be thinking professional model > student model.

I *believe* someone here mentioned that one of the Buffet student instruments has the same bore as their R13 (the only measurements I can find on the B12 is 14.65mm and the R13 at 14.60, but the other specs (http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments.php?mode=productSpecifications&pid=722) are quite close and SteveSklar (http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clbore.htm) sees measurements of 14.64, so YMMV).

And the Buffet student horns are pretty nice.
You are right in the first paragraph. But I don't know what someone here mentioned but it is not true that the student Buffets have the same bore as the R13. The actual measurement is different according ro Buffet, and also considering how different the same model can be, and how these clarinets are made (i.e. not the most accurate) then the bores are very different. I think the student models are made at a different factory with different tools.

But yes, the student Buffets play very nicely. Too bad their build quality isn't on the same level....

[SteveSklar]

I think i've mistakenly said in the recent past that the B12 are similar to the R13s. But they are made in Germany vs France.

The E11s has plastic insert toneholes and are also (until very recently) made in Germany too

the R13s of yore were all hand reamed .. so minor diviations exist. Plus the bore is not a perfect circle... being wood and all I take a visual avg of a couple measurements or simply use a bore tool which measures the smallest diameter.

matter fact this morning .. i was measuring tonehole widths of a Selmer Series II alto sax .. it wasn't close to being a perfect circle either on all of them !!

[pete]

I think you meant all wind instruments? For some instruments the material is critical for the sound (percussion, strings, etc.)
Yes, you got the idea I was trying to convey. No, I do believe that all instrumentalists argue about whether $material makes a difference in how their instrument plays.

But I don't know what someone here mentioned but it is not true that the student Buffets have the same bore as the R13.As I said, "I *believe* someone here mentioned ...." that was Steve (see post above this one). And I even posted that the bore measurements, according to Buffet, were different. Maybe they're not exactly the same (.05mm isn't that much) because people would stop buying R13s!

As far as the quality thing goes, again it's professional model > student model. Just think about it: if the horn is the highest quality thing you can produce, it's naturally supposed to be your professional model.

I suppose you could argue that Yamaha (or someone) will make the highest quality instrument out of the lowest cost materials and then call it "student model", but I doubt this is generally the case. Student models are always lower quality than pro models from the same manufacturer. Yes, the student models can be outstanding, but the pro models will be better. Hey, the Yamaha 23 is a great sax. The Custom 875 is better. Not necessarily worth the difference in price, but that's a different discussion.

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Well my wife (a trumpet player) has convinced me to go and look at some used R13's. I think this is a good idea for me. I think I was a bit blinded by the light of the rosewood Patricola instead of what do I need and want.

I'm stopping at a wind shop in New Jersey and i'm going to try a couple of R13's used. Some as old as before 1950 and others as new as 2004. She's (and most of the people who answered my original post) are right. The R13 is a great instrument and, in the future if I really want a rosewood Patricola I can always sell the Beffet and get a new rosewood one.

I believe that once I play it and own it I will keep the Buffet. It's the best for the money right now.

Steve

[saxplayer1004]

I think there's a used R13 festival on SOTW right now.
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=92410&highlight=r13+festival

[SteveSklar]

....... try a couple of R13's used. Some as old as before 1950 and others as new as 2004.

Just remember the R13s actually started in 1955. Anything before that is usually a pro clarinet, but not the R13s specific polycylindrical bore. I have a 51xxx and a 55xxx R13 both made in 1955.

My 1950 Buffet is not an R13.

scroll down a bit to the "Pre R13" and R13 for mechanical keywork comparison
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clsnBuffet.htm#Identification

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: Thanks for that link. I checked my oldish R-13 against the serial number list . . . . 1962 vintage AND mine has the flat spring under G#/C#. While it is a fine instrument (albeit with cloudy-looking nickel keywork) I prefer my RC Prestige even better. DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

I think I found a clarinet to purchase. I went to Dillion Music in NJ. See http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/ProductPage/43081.aspx. They said that it is R13 but when I go back I'll check to see it on the barrel. I was actually looking at one from 2004 for 1700 dollars but I liked the feel of this one which is 895.

The only caveat is that it has what I see as a hairline crack, if even a crack, on one of the sections. They are bringing the clarinet over to their other store where they have a camera to look into the barrell to see if it is a real crack and make sure it doesn't go all the way through.

This is a better price than I thought I'd get and I also did not think I would like a used instrument. Well I do and hopefully I'll have it in a day or two.

Steve

[Gandalfe]

One of the barrels is missing from the Dillion Music R-13. :-(

[Dave Dolson]

If you were referring to the photo in the link, I think that open space is where the mouthpiece goes, not a second barrel. DAVE

[Gandalfe]

If you were referring to the photo in the link, I think that open space is where the mouthpiece goes, not a second barrel. DAVENo, my R-13 came with two barrels for different conditions/temps. I wasn't looking at the spaces in the case.

[Carl H.]

67mm barrel, might need another to play at 440.

[Dave Dolson]

My RC Prestige came with only one barrel - new. But if new R-13's came with two, the fact that the used one being considered has only one barrel is not a fatal flaw in the deal. Clarinet barrels are fairly easy to come by - I have several for my Buffets.

I agree that 67mm may be too long for proper ensemble tuning, at least it sure would be for me. DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

I think I found a clarinet to purchase. I went to Dillion Music in NJ. See http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/ProductPage/43081.aspx. They said that it is R13 but when I go back I'll check to see it on the barrel. I was actually looking at one from 2004 for 1700 dollars but I liked the feel of this one which is 895.

The only caveat is that it has what I see as a hairline crack, if even a crack, on one of the sections. They are bringing the clarinet over to their other store where they have a camera to look into the barrell to see if it is a real crack and make sure it doesn't go all the way through.

This is a better price than I thought I'd get and I also did not think I would like a used instrument. Well I do and hopefully I'll have it in a day or two.

Steve

Hi all,

I'm concerned about the possible crack in the clarinet. Let me tell you what I saw. There was about a 5 inch long line next to the keys and another 1 inch line a next to the long one. It almost looks as though it could be a grove made by something like a pen but not quite.

On first look, with a flashlight, the repair person could not see a crack inside so they are bringing over the scope from the brass store to look closer at it.

This is a consignment Clarinet so of course there is no warrenty with it. I'm starting to feel funny about this. The dealer seems to be reputable and has a good name with brass but it is easy for them to say it's not a crack when it might be a crack and the first time, if ever, it gets a cold shock. I doubt I will ever get to give it a shock. I did used to see cracks when I played in the Army Band and we did parades in the winter. I made it a point never to take my buffet and took the Army's plastic Clarinets out to the parades when it was cold.

Any thoughts, concerns etc would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: In my opinion, if the wood appears to have an opening, regardless of whether or not it is all the way through, that would likely be future trouble. On the flip side, I know cracks can be repaired and a repaired clarinet can still play.

But why buy this one when there are plenty of good, playable R-13's on the market?

While I am a Buffet fan, I acknowledge there are several good brands out there. I wouldn't limit my search to just used Buffets. If, for instance, I found a reasonable price on a new hi-end Yamaha, I'd sure consider that horn, assuming that all the factors we've previously discussed are in play. DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

I decided not to get the clarinet that I looked at. It is not an R13 and the crack, although they say it doesn't go all the way through, I don't trust getting one with any defects like that.

There is another on their site http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/ProductPage/503732.aspx that I tried. It needs a little adjustment where the two parts of the keys go together. When you press the key down it lifts up the lever on the split. Pardon me for not remembering the note keys but it's been 40 years since I've played.

Any and all comments are welcomed.

Thanks,

Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: I'd like to think that a competent music store would make sure the instrument is in perfect playing shape before selling it to you. Did you discuss this perceived problem with them? If so, what was their response? DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Steve: I'd like to think that a competent music store would make sure the instrument is in perfect playing shape before selling it to you. Did you discuss this perceived problem with them? If so, what was their response? DAVE

Hi Dave,

Dillion music has an untarnished reputation. Actually my wife Kaye brought her trumpet to their brass store and they did a wonderful job of cleaning it. Steve Dillion has a great reputation and I do trust them. Some day if you are interested, I'll tell you the story about her Bach Strad and how she got it and what it really is. It's an interesting story to say the least.

Dillion music did check the non-R13 Clarinet and used a scope to see if the crack went through. They called me and told me it did not go through and I believe them. However that being said, the Clarinet is on consignent and they did not do any work on it and, it is still not an R13 with no guarentees that the crack will not spread.

I probably wouldn't have a problem with that Clarinet but I do want an R13. The cracked one is only $895.00 and the R13 from 2004 is $1695.00. I'd rather spend the lesser amount but I also want a Clarinet that starts off with no cracks :P.

Thanks,

Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: I was referring to your latest discussion - the R-13 for which you described the lever connecting the keywork on the upper and lower joints maybe being out of adjustment.

No slam against the store you mentioned - just that if there was an adjustment problem, they'd most likely make sure it was fixed before selling it to you. I thought it curious that you perceived a problem with that $1695 clarinet (by mentioning this lever), yet didn't say anything about what they'd said about it. I sure HOPED they didn't intend to sell it for that price and leave you with an adjustment problem.

Assuming they'd make sure you were happy before you bought it; if you liked the horn, buy it. And if you don't buy it, why not? DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Steve: I was referring to your latest discussion - the R-13 for which you described the lever connecting the keywork on the upper and lower joints maybe being out of adjustment.

No slam against the store you mentioned - just that if there was an adjustment problem, they'd most likely make sure it was fixed before selling it to you. I thought it curious that you perceived a problem with that $1695 clarinet (by mentioning this lever), yet didn't say anything about what they'd said about it. I sure HOPED they didn't intend to sell it for that price and leave you with an adjustment problem.

Assuming they'd make sure you were happy before you bought it; if you liked the horn, buy it. And if you don't buy it, why not? DAVE

Hi Dave,

I just got off the phone with Dillion and they said they will fix the lever. It was just an adjustment. I believe that this is the right choice for me. Do any of you have any comment on the price of the Clarinet?

I think 1695 is a fair price. My wife told me to see if they'll get any off on the price but I don't like bargaining. I feel that getting 50 bucks off leaves them with a bad taste and I feel cheap doing it. But that's just me.

Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: That is what I wanted to read . . . I suspected they'd do it right. I trust you've played the thing?

As far as the price, I don't know. I'm thinking it may be a bit high, but if you are close enough to the store to take advantage of future service and other business, it may be okay.

I know I've spent what others may have considered to be too much on various horns in my time, but I liked the horn(s) and bought them anyway - not with any investment in mind, but because I wanted to have them. I'm glad now that I didn't quibble or walk away because of the price. I've enjoyed hours of playing these instruments and the prices seem insignificant to me now.

I feel the same way about haggling prices, too. DAVE

[robertsax]

I've learned there are different types of R13's, some with nickel plated keys and others silver plated, for example. My R13 has nickel plated keys and it renders it a second class citizen, so-to-speak, worth less money than its silver plated cousin. There may be other differences, but that's the one easiest to spot. I found if you enter your R13 serial number on the Selmer clarinet website you get a brief summary of the technical details for your R13.

Like Dave, I hate to haggle when I find a horn I want just for my personal enjoyment and the experience of playing it. If my horn trading, buying and selling over the last few years was a business, I'd have been bankrupt long ago, but I've had a ton of fun doing it and have no regrets - well, not many.

[SteveSklar]

I've learned there are different types of R13's, some with nickel plated keys and others silver plated, ....... I found if you enter your R13 serial number on the Selmer clarinet website you get a brief summary of the technical details for your R13.

Silver plated R13s general go for $150-$250 more for the same general SN clarinet with nickel plated keys ... that's just the way it is. Kinda like if you had a nickel nickel, and a solid silver nickel .. which is worth more ? (the silver one you can sell for the silver content)

as for checking the R13 on the Selmer website - i think checking it on the Buffet website will give much more accurate information :-D

Retail/store front musci stores will general ask more for their instruments. This versus an online store. The ability you get with them is that they allow you to play test right then and now. Versus an online store which have to ship it to you, etc. or no trial at all.

So you may pay a bit more with a storefront but for many it is worth it to play test and select the instrument that they want.

Clarinet prices vary. An "overhaul" can vary greatly in quality of all aspects of the clarinet, and those prices are put into the base price of the instrument.

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Well I got one. It was the one for $1695.00 (a 2004 R13). Unbenost to me my wfie called them, found that it was a consigment, so she asked if the owner would go down the $1300.00 and by golly they said OK. So I have a wonderfull Clarinet that my wife bought for me. I also bought a couple of Etude books (One with a CD) and some reeds, rush, swab and a Clarinet stand.

I will post some pictures of it on one of my sites later on for all to see.

I have to thank all of you for your input. It was a great help in deciding what to get.

More to come,

Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: Congrats! DAVE

[robertsax]

...as for checking the R13 on the Selmer website - i think checking it on the Buffet website will give much more accurate information :-D...

Oops! My bad. :oops:

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

When I was in the service I played a trio for Clarinet. It might have been Tchaikovsky but I'm not sure. The trio was most likely for Violin, Flute or Clarinet.

I've been searching for it with no luck. I posted this on another topic but haven't got an answer yet. There is a link to what I remembered (I did it with midi) on the following site.

http://www.recorddemo.com/Trio.mp3

I started with the Harmonies as I remembered then did the rest of the few bars solo.

I really want to find this music.

Thanks,

Steve

[pete]

Steve, you've got another thread (http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2040) on that. Cross-posting isn't allowed. Just a note.

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Well I found it. Someone from another board found it for me. It is.

The "Beethoven Trio in C for 2 Oboes and English Horn, Op.87. I actually found a midi for it but I'm looking for the sheet music now. I should be able to find it.

Thanks,
Steve

[Dave Dolson]

All this talk about R-13's caused me to dig mine out of the horn-closet. I've been spending some time with mine, experimenting with different barrels and mouthpiece/ligature combos. I'm really enjoying it.

Like I posted before, this is an R-13 with nickel keywork. I bought it used many years ago (a package deal that included a very nice Selmer MKVI alto saxophone; both horns for $1K - late 1970's/early '80's).

The R-13 really plays nice. I have a collection of various length barrels and mouthpieces, so I started the process. What I ended up with was the stock R-13 Buffet barrel of about 64mm with a Claude Lakey mouthpiece (Claude told me he made these to play at A=443) with a soft Fibracell reed and a Rovner EVO-5 ligature.

I also did some side-by-sides with my RC Prestige clarinet using the stock Prestige barrel and another older Lakey mouthpiece/fibracell/Rovner combo. The Prestige and R-13 are pretty much alike. The Prestige's tone may be a just a bit warmer; the feel and response of the R-13 is equal.

I had been using a very short custom barrel on my Prestige (made by a local clarinet specialist using a Sierra blank - it measures 56mm) with a Vandoren 66/fibracell set-up. That set-up allowed me to tune sharp (you may be saying OF COURSE) in some playing environments.

But now that I've been playing the longer barrels with the shorter Lakey mouthpieces, I'm finding the intonation even better than it was before. Not that it was OUT before, only that the horns' intonation improved and doesn't make me work quite as hard.

The final test of any horn (and set-up) is how it plays on the job. I'll test it this Sunday at my gig. DAVE

[Ed Svoboda]

There's no better test than playing a horn during a gig. There's also no greater trepidation that playing a new (to you) horn during a gig unless you switch horns often.

[Dave Dolson]

Took both of my Buffet clarinets (R-13 from 1962 and an RC Prestige) to the gig yesterday and tried both with my new set-ups (stock barrels, Lakey mouthpieces, soft Fibracell reeds, and Rovner ligatures).

I played both to pitch (yeah, a good thing) but the Prestige was clearly superior in ensemble and solo work. The Prestige had a certain vibrance to it - I could almost feel the resonance in my finger tips. Not that the R-13 was poor, just that Prestige was SO much warmer and alive.

I also discovered that I didn't have quite the control with the Lakeys as I do with the Vandoren 66 I've been using for many years. However, the Lakeys gave me more edge and I suspect that as I play them more, I'll have better control, up to the level of the Vandoren. The Vandoren is just too long for me to come to pitch with those standard-length barrels. DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

It's been a long time since I posted here. Life has been hectic health wise but I've still been practicing a lot and am starting to get my chops up. As I said I got a 2004 R13 and I am enjoying it a lot. I took pictures of it and will post some shortly.

I still feel as though I want to get a Patricola and I am selling off a bunch of stuff to get the money up. I almost have the full amount so when I do I will get one sent over to try. I've had conversations with Angelo Patricola and have even had a friend offer to pick one up in Italy for me. He goes there a lot and is going to retire there. But it is better to get one in the USA so I can try it out and send it back if I don't like it.

One good thing is that my wife Kaye has started playing the Trumpet again. I'm so pleased and happy for her. She went up to Dillon Music (they are near me) and had her Strad cleaned up. We are starting to play a lot of duets to get our chops up and it's working.

Kaye bought me (from Dillon) an O'Brien Crystal mouthpiece. It is an O'Brien Fossenkemper. That was made for Marius Fossenkemper who was the principal clarinetist of the Detroit Symphony in the 1930s. It is signed with his name as well as O'Brien's name and plays similar to the O'Brien OB. They also have an OB that I'm thinking of getting just because it is the one I grew up with. I will get an image of the Fossenkemper when I get the image of the Clarinet up as well.

When Kaye and I started playing Duets we were using her Arban's book. There are a few duets there but I was bored real quickly. I wrote a Duet that was very nice and we've been playing and updating that one too. I'm thinking of writing a bunch of Duets for us. It's actually more fun than writing my songs and jingles.

Anyway, enough babbling for now. More to come in the near future. Thanks again for all the input I've received over the past few months.

Steve