Advice needed on a Selmer Series 10

[cruiserchick]

I recently had all new pads put on my Selmer Series 10 G to bring it back up to good playing condition. I also upgraded from a student mouthpiece to a Van Doren 5RV. For the most part, it sounds great. However, the middle range B note (please forgive my lack of correct terminology) is hard to play and sounds muted and a little flat.

I had the man who rebuilt it check again for leaks - he found none. I've tried several reeds which made no difference.

I'm quite discouraged and ready to put the clarinet back in its case for a while instead of playing it. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to fix this problem?

[Dave Dolson]

Loretta: You may want to try more mouthpieces. I've found that some mouthpieces aid my tonal clarity over the whole horn while others don't respond quite as well in certain places.

Another thing - it may not be a pad leak as much as some mechanical misalignment. Even the best repair-techs sometimes miss an obvious problem. SO, sit down in good light with your Selmer and watch closely as you play chromatically over the break - watch to see if something else moves inappropriately as you finger the notes.

Lastly, have another clarinetist play the thing to see if the other player has the same problem. Did your repair-tech play it and experience that problem? DAVE

[Gandalfe]

So right, have another player see if she/he can repro the problem. Even the best techs miss stuff.

But if the player testing your setup is a stellar player, it may be harder to determine. Great players can play almost any instrument. That happened with my grandson's bass clarinet where it played fine for the tech but no one else. Replace three pad and presto bammo, life was good again.

[tictactux]

However, the middle range B note (please forgive my lack of correct terminology) is hard to play and sounds muted and a little flat.

It is not uncommon that the long B can sound a bit flat. Does the chalumeau counterpart, the low E, sound flat as well?

Then: how do you finger these "long" notes? Just the 'B' pinky, or do you depress the 'C' touchpiece as well? Even though the 'B' is supposed to close the 'C' pad as well, this isn't always perfectly the case, especially in freshly repadded clarinets.

I was taught to always finger the long B with left pinky on 'B' and right pinky on 'C' until a) the pads have reached their final seats and b) I was comfortable enough to single-finger the B.

[Tammi]

Some Selmer clarinets have 'issues' with the register vent. B natural and throat Bb will sound 'stuffy'. There's nothing your tech can do for that.
I play a Selmer Signature made in about 2000-01 with a similar problem.

As for the Vandoren mouthpiece.....I've found that Vandoren aren't always a good match for Selmer clarinets.
The mouthpieces that work the best for me are the Selmer C85 series, Portnoy, or Larry Combs.
The C85 is a bit expensive ($135. at WWBW), but the others are more affordable. ($80 or less)
All of these have medium facings, med/med open tips, and work well with 2.5-3.5 reeds. I use Vandoren Classics, V12s', and Lurie 3.5s.

[SteveSklar]

Loretta

all great input above ....

Hard to play, muted & flat are symptoms of a leak somewhere of some type. It may not be a pad leak, it may be something else - joint leak, minute tonehole crack, mechanism not working 100% in synchronization thus creating a leak somewhere, leak around the register vent, thumb hole, binding, et all

Also some techs have heavy "fingers" meaning they use a gorilla grip (squeeze the snot out of things) thus everything for them works fine. Give it to a regular player and nothing works well. Others use a simple vaccuum test which only finds one type of leak.

If you cannot find someone local to give it a good check over and if another player can't help you determine if it's you or the horn I'd be happy to give it a lookover and fix (assuming no materials) for free to get you back on your clarinet feet =-)

[cruiserchick]

You may want to try more mouthpieces.

Lastly, have another clarinetist play the thing to see if the other player has the same problem.

That sounds like a great idea. I'll try to find someone locally to play it using my Van Doren mouthpiece and theirs (just to compare two that are different).

[cruiserchick]

It is not uncommon that the long B can sound a bit flat. Does the chalumeau counterpart, the low E, sound flat as well?

Then: how do you finger these "long" notes? Just the 'B' pinky, or do you depress the 'C' touchpiece as well? Even though the 'B' is supposed to close the 'C' pad as well, this isn't always perfectly the case, especially in freshly repadded clarinets.

Interestingly, the low E sounds great. As far as the fingering, the muted tone is the same regardless of whether I use the left pinky alone, both left and right pinkies together or the lower pinkey key just on the right hand (again, sorry for my lack of technical terms).

[SOTSDO]

Another problem with Selmer horns that I have always experienced is that the rings tend to be set too high in relation to the tone hole chimneys. If this is the case, then the slightest of movement when fingering the "little finger notes" with the right hand has a tendency to lift the right hand ring finger just enough to cause a leak.

Those with "gorilla grips" can muscle through this problem (but their overall facility may suffer). Those with a light touch cannot.

With only a few exceptions, I've had to had this work done on every soprano clarinet that I've ever bought. Any technician can do the work.

[cruiserchick]

Another problem with Selmer horns that I have always experienced is that the rings tend to be set too high in relation to the tone hole chimneys. If this is the case, then the slightest of movement when fingering the "little finger notes" with the right hand has a tendency to lift the right hand ring finger just enough to cause a leak.

Wow! I played in front of a mirror, and in fact, my right hand ring finger lifted slightly in order to play both the C and B notes. When correcting my hand position, it made some difference to the sound, although it still sounds a little muted and is still difficult to play.

I still like the idea of having another musician play it to get their opinion. I also suspect, as previously suggested, that there may be another small leak somewhere.

Just one more question, would I need to change my embouchure to play that particular note? The other notes sound so good, that I can't see that being the case.

Thanks for all your input. What a great group of people. I'll let you know when I find out.

Loretta

[Tammi]

If all the other notes are good, especially if low E and F full and resonant, I don't think you have a leak.
I'll almost put money on the wacked out Selmer register vent.
But what do I know, I'm not a tech.

[clarnibass]

Then: how do you finger these "long" notes? Just the 'B' pinky, or do you depress the 'C' touchpiece as well? Even though the 'B' is supposed to close the 'C' pad as well, this isn't always perfectly the case, especially in freshly repadded clarinets.
Related to this, try fingering B with left hand B plus right hand C. Press a little harder than you usually do when playing. Does this help the B sound better?

Ben is right that it isn't always adjusted very good, but for a freshly repadded clarinet it shouldn't be a problem IF it was adjusted properly. Maybe it wasn't?

I was taught to always finger the long B with left pinky on 'B' and right pinky on 'C' until a) the pads have reached their final seats and b) I was comfortable enough to single-finger the B.
If the adjustment is good, there is no problem playing the B (or E) with any finger or fingers imediately after the pads were replaced. Of course if the keys on a specific clarinet tend to go out of adjustment, in combination with a player who presses especially hard, then it might go out of adjustment sooner than usual. But still the fingering doesn't matter, IME, based on players having this adjustment made to their clarinet, and using all sorts of fingerings for E/B imediately after.

If all the other notes are good, especially if low E and F full and resonant, I don't think you have a leak.
I'll almost put money on the wacked out Selmer register vent.
But what do I know, I'm not a tech.
Some leaks can actually only affect some notes, and low F and E would sound fine in spite of them. I don't really know a specific leak, other than the F/C-E/B adjustment, that would affect only long B, but it's possible.

Re the register vent, this can be the problem. The register vent is compromised and the B can be affected. However I wouldn't necessarily say "the wacked out Selmer register vent", because some Selmer models don't have this problem at all. Maybe it's a specific register compromise that they chose on some models, and on other models they chose a different compromise.

Tammi, something you can try, and if you do I'd be interested in what you find, is play both throat Bb and long B with the second from top (Bb) side trill instead of the register key. For the long B you might need to lean the clarinet on something while trying (no grip). How do these notes sound with these fingerings compare with the normal fingerings?

Nitai

[Tammi]

The results are the same on my Signature as they are on my Buffet that DOES NOT have the wierd register vent issue. The sound is opened up. I've known about these alternates since I was 12.
However using these fingerings isn't always feasable.

[SteveSklar]

As Tammi knows, I have small (short) and thin fingers. I actually like my rings slightly higher than normal (not flush).

I also have about a 1/4" chunk of cork on the thumb rest to properly angle my fingers to the rings and spatula keys. Without it, when I reach for the lower spatula keys I pull my fingers slightly off the lowest ring especially on Buffets. But on any a slight pull is all that is needed to create that "leak" on that 3rd ring

Don't even ask about a Full Boehm. My pinky can't even press the low Eb key without me fixing up the keywork for my lack of reach.

[clarnibass]

The results are the same on my Signature as they are on my Buffet that DOES NOT have the wierd register vent issue. The sound is opened up. I've known about these alternates since I was 12.
However using these fingerings isn't always feasable.
To clarify, I wasn't teaching you those fingerings, I just wanted to know if they "fix" the problem, to be sure if the problem is really from the register tube. In a few weeks I will probably be able to try all Selmer models and I will try to notice this specifically on all models and especially the Signature.

Nitai

[Tammi]

I know you weren't teaching me the fingerings. I wanted you to understand that I was aware of what you were trying to find out.
I can also open up B natural by fingering it long and opening the throat A key.

My hands are not small, larger than Steves' in fact, so there is little chance that I'm inadvertantly lifting a finger to reach a pinky key and causing a leak that way. Key hights are set flush with the tone hole when depressed, and I have a light touch. Gorilla grip isn't good when you do repads for kids.

I have a set of vintage Selmer full boehms' and have no difficulty reaching the low Eb on either of those.
They also have no issues with stuffy Bs'.

[tictactux]

As Tammi knows, I have small (short) and thin fingers. I actually like my rings slightly higher than normal (not flush).

I have very average hands and I *hate* it when a tech sets the (RH) ring height to flush with the tone holes. My finger tips are round, my fingers not stretched straight when playing, which means that the tips protrude into the rings a bit and close the tone hole long before the rings would get flush. The bigger the ring, the higher it should be. My comfy level is at roughly half a millimeter above the tone hole, if not even more.

[clarnibass]

I know you weren't teaching me the fingerings. I wanted you to understand that I was aware of what you were trying to find out.
I understand, just "since I was 12" etc. sounded very defensive, so I wanted to clarify I wasn't trying to offend you or question what you found. I will see what I can find out about this specific problem when trying all the new Selmer models in a couple of weeks.

My comfy level is at roughly half a millimeter above the tone hole, if not even more.
I think that's about the same as almost everyone. That's how I prefer the rings also, and I generally setup instruments the same way that I like them. Of all the times I asked others to check if this is comfortable for them, I don't remember more than a few times the person preferred it differently (even after changing it so they can feel the difference).

Nitai

[Tammi]

When you are a rural living female your abilities and intelligence are always in question. Defensiveness is part of being female living in 'male' dominated society.

[tictactux]

When you are a rural living female your abilities and intelligence are always in question. Defensiveness is part of being female living in 'male' dominated society.

That's odd, somehow. As if there was 'one right way' do do (or even look at) things...

[Tammi]

Not odd at all when you're female. It's a reality.

Now if someone could tell me where to find the problem with MY stuffy B, I'd be more than happy to to a little experimentation in order to remedy the situation. The general concensis is that I'm wrong about the vent.
Just not the one where you stick a bit of needle spring into the cork of the register key. I've tried it and it's bunk.

[tictactux]

Not odd at all when you're female. It's a reality.
You say that and I have to believe you. I live in a different world, and it won't do much good to apologise on behalf of those rednecks, I guess. Besides, why should I, stoopid men, yech.
Now if someone could tell me where to find the problem with MY stuffy B, I'd be more than happy to to a little experimentation in order to remedy the situation. The general concensus is that I'm wrong about the vent.
If the B is stuffy, I think the instrument is wrong about the vent, not you...

I had a similar case in the past and was able to at least alleviate the problem a bit. Dunno if there is a definite cure, maybe it is a design flaw and there's not much we (unequipped with lathes and grinders and sledgehammers) can do...
First I widened the register pipe's innards (that point towards the register key) with a pointy grinder - the pip now just looks like a tiny trumpet bell with a lot of wood around. Plus I shaped the register cork into a lens-shaped spheroid (or whatever the term). The sound of air is now far more faint and at least the airy component is gone.
The rest is a juggling with mouthpieces and rees, and maybe nothing helps, except exchanging the register key, displacing it, whatever.

[clarnibass]

Not odd at all when you're female. It's a reality.
I hope you didn't misinterpret my post to suggest anything like that. I promise you it didn't. Sorry if you did.

Now if someone could tell me where to find the problem with MY stuffy B, I'd be more than happy to to a little experimentation in order to remedy the situation. The general concensis is that I'm wrong about the vent.
Who exactly decided that "general concensis"? People who have tried the Signature model? Hmm..... maybe it's something specific with your Signature. Unless someone tried your specific clarinet they can't really say.

Do you know what year your Signature was made in? Have you tried other Signatures? Anything made approx at the same time? Any from a different time? How was the problem on those? Did you try any other Selmers from about same time?

I want to know so I can compare with the current Signature, and if it doesn't have a problem, maybe I can get some information from the Selmer representatives if they were aware of a problem and if the register vent was changed.

How comfortable are you with removing and re-installing the register tube? If you can do this, maybe you can get a replacement tube, and do some experiements with it.

BTW do the Bb and/or the B sound any better/different if you completely remove the regsiter key?

I'm sure you know the register tube is a compromise no matter what it is like. One compromise that can happen sometimes is better response of upper clarion, for notes like A and B for example (also other nots) in exchange for a slightly worse throat Bb, and possibly tone of lower clarion, especially B. Sometimes the altisimo will also be a bit better when this is the compromise. Do you notice the upper clarion on your Signature is responding better (when starting the notes) than your instruments without this problem?

Of course some instruments have different overall compromises and sometimes these advantages are minimized by other methods.

Nitai

[Tammi]

I'm aware of the compromises involved with the register tube. All of that was discussed in another thread I started here about the problematic stuffy throat Bb.
Removing the register key gives the same response as with it installed. Stuffy and muffled at ppp through fff. No change.

The Signature was purchased in '01 or '02. I can call around to a few shops to see if they have a Signature in stock for me to try and compare to mine. Most keep Selmer student horns in stock, and special order the rest. When I got mine it was the only one that I knew of at the time. It hadn't been out that long.

As for ordering a replacement tube....If they are still using the same one that would be throwing good money after bad. If it has been modified then I would be very comfortable replacing it. It's not difficult. If there is no 'cure' I can live with it. I know the alternates and use them when possible.

[clarnibass]

I think I wasn't clear enough.

I meant getting a replacement tube, even if it is the same, so you can try all sorts of modifications, and don't ruin your tube and then have no replacement. I think if you want to experiment it's better to have a replacement tube just in case some experiment fails, and is not easy to fix (actually I did drill my bass clarinet register vent before I had a replacement... but I don't necessarily recommend others do this). That doesn't seem like throwing money away to me if you are really intersted in experimenting.

I'm not suggesting a radical change like moving the register hole to a different place. Smaller changes like enlarging, making smaller, bevelling, shortening, etc. are not very difficult if you want to experiment.

On my soprano clarinet the throat Bb is pretty much as good as the trill Bb. I'm almost sure it is (at least partly) because of the register hole is slightly bigger. I've tried a smaller tube, and when it was small enough to feel a slight improvement in response of upper clarion and altisimo the lower clarion (especially B) and throat Bb were terrible. The improvement of the upper clarion and altisimo was insignificant in comaprison, and I don't consider their current response a problem at all.

So a slightly larger register hole might (or not, you have to check to really know) be a better overall compromise. Even a 0.1mm difference can sometimes be significant.

[martinm]

I recently had all new pads put on my Selmer Series 10 G to bring it back up to good playing condition. I also upgraded from a student mouthpiece to a Van Doren 5RV. For the most part, it sounds great. However, the middle range B note (please forgive my lack of correct terminology) is hard to play and sounds muted and a little flat.

I had the man who rebuilt it check again for leaks - he found none. I've tried several reeds which made no difference.

I'm quite discouraged and ready to put the clarinet back in its case for a while instead of playing it. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to fix this problem?

I very often open the throat G# key when I sustain the middle B. Makes the note crystal clear, prevents cracking the note and improves the pitch. Try it,
you'll like it.
martinm

[SOTSDO]

One thing that I forgot to add in my earlier postings:

I generally find my Series 10 horn to be stuffier than any of my Series 9 instruments. Using the same mouthpiece and reed combination on each of the horns, I find that all of the 9s are smooth and consistent throughout, while the 10 has a number of stuffy notes, and some real inconsistency over the break.

i've read that the Series 10 models were all patterned on the R-13, as far as the bore was concerned, but I have never noticed those kinds of problems with the Buffets that I have played over the years.

Mind you, the inconsistencies might mostly be only apparent to the player, not to the listener. If I had to play the Series 10 horn, I could make it work. But, it's nowhere as near as "sweet" as the Series 9 instruments.

And, being used to Series 9 horns for so many years, change is not always easily accomplished. The small bore Series 9 horns certainly play different from any number of other clarinet designs, and I've probably been "grooved" on them for so long that anything else feels alien. (Certainly, the Albert horns and the German Oehler horn are a big change.)

Oddly enough, the high end Selmer metal clarinet that I have sitting in the rebuild closet feels about the same as the Series 9 instrument, with any "stuffiness" there attributed to old pads that have to be replaced. Don't know if the bore diameters and tapers are the same, though.

[cruiserchick]

I very often open the throat G# key when I sustain the middle B. Makes the note crystal clear, prevents cracking the note and improves the pitch. Try it,
you'll like it.
martinm

Thanks for your suggestion. I tried it, and definately hear a difference, but it is still sounds a little stuffy (as described in Terry's post just above this one).

Do you find it difficult to "retrain" yourself to play the G# key along with the middle B fingering? It seems like it will take some getting used to.

Loretta

[cruiserchick]

One thing that I forgot to add in my earlier postings:

I generally find my Series 10 horn to be stuffier than any of my Series 9 instruments. Using the same mouthpiece and reed combination on each of the horns, I find that all of the 9s are smooth and consistent throughout, while the 10 has a number of stuffy notes, and some real inconsistency over the break.

Thanks for your great input. The adjective "stuffy" is a great way to describe the way the middle B sounds. I'm still planning on having another musician try the clarinet out, and am going to try out a couple different mouthpieces (perhaps the Selmer would help).

Common sense would tell me to use a mouthpiece that is the same brand as the rest of the clarinet. One tech suggested I go with the Van Doren 5RV, so that's why I bought it.

[Dave Dolson]

Cruiserchick: I don't think "common sense" (matching brand-name mouthpieces to the same-brand instrument) is common practice. All of my new instruments came with matching-brand mouthpieces and all of those mouthpieces are in my growing box of rejected mouthpieces. Feel free to select the best mouthpiece for you without regard to the mouthpiece's brand. DAVE