My End of The Patricola Story

[stevethemusicman]

HI All,

Well after all the hoopla of the Patricola I actually sent it back. Not that it wasn't a great instrument. It was and is a very good clarinet but my Buffet R13 plays as good as the Patricola and after I got over the flash of the rosewood I decided it wasn't worth the 3 grand I paid for it. Also there was something that Patricola did that I wasn't happy with so part of me sent it back (in the words of Jerry Seinfeld) "For spite").

So now I still have my R13 and I'm thrilled with it. And now I have 3 grand to spend on STUFF :). I might buy an alto saxophone. Any suggestions? I'm thinking of the Yamaha YAS-62II in silver or a cheaper model of some kind. I'd really like to spend about twelve hundred on a sax but I don't know if I'd get anything worthwhile.

I am going to buy another barrel or two for the Buffet. Maybe the Hourglass shaped one or the Reverse conical one. I'll also buy some reed modifiers (I already have the Van Doren Glass resurfacer but there is another machine that looks interesting. Or maybe get some machine for making reeds. It's fun to spend money :). The reason I'm going to get an alto is that I have been playing around with my WX5 and VL-70M and see that I cannot get the sound I really want with it so I'm going to get rid of it.

Anyway enough babbling for now. Hope everyone is having a great summer.

Steve

[saxismyaxe]

Also there was something that Patricola did that I wasn't happy with so part of me sent it back (in the words of Jerry Seinfeld) "For spite").
That has been enough to fuel many of my proclamations never to do business with individuals/companies as well. Voting with your feet can be very satisfying indeed, especially in economic times where indifferent or even hostile business bed side manners are inexcusable!

[stevethemusicman]

That has been enough to fuel many of my proclamations never to do business with individuals/companies as well. Voting with your feet can be very satisfying indeed, especially in economic times where indifferent or even hostile business bed side manners are inexcusable!

So you you have any recommendations on a sax?

Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: Too bad about the Patricola. I was wondering what your latest thoughts were on this clarinet - now I know. While I have no idea how the two compared (R13 vs. Patricola), I'd bet on the Buffet if I had to. You are probably better off.

Don't waste your time of reed-adjustment kits. I do mine with a sharp pocket knife and that method works perfectly - for me.

As to making recommendations on alto saxophones, now you are getting into subjectivity-to-the-max. But here goes . . . within the past few years, I spent a lot of time testing and evaluating new/modern altos. I've owned a lot of them and tried even more. I currently own seven altos from early 1920's up to a modern Selmer-Paris Reference 54.

I'll make this short rather than list all the horns I've owned or tested . . . For MY money, they don't come any better, vintage to modern, than the Reference 54 series. I wouldn't spend a dime on anything Yamaha (and I have spent many dimes on Yamahas of many persuasions, including the vaunted 82Z). I gave my fine 1963 MKVI alto to my son, and kept the Ref 54 - it is my main gigging alto.

But others will most likely offer a counter opinion, so I guess it is up to you go forth and test. For less than half the price of the Selmers, you could probably come up with a nice playing Taiwanese/Chinese-based alto, but I have yet to feel one (or play one) that came up to the level of the Ref 54. DAVE

[retread]

Phil Barone (the sax mouthpiece maker) is marketing his own line of Taiwanese-made saxes that have gotten favorable reviews on Sax on the Web. I think they're priced in your target range, or maybe a little lower. You might search for comments there.
http://forum.saxontheweb.net

[stevethemusicman]

Steve: Too bad about the Patricola. I was wondering what your latest thoughts were on this clarinet - now I know. While I have no idea how the two compared (R13 vs. Patricola), I'd bet on the Buffet if I had to. You are probably better off.

Don't waste your time of reed-adjustment kits. I do mine with a sharp pocket knife and that method works perfectly - for me.

As to making recommendations on alto saxophones, now you are getting into subjectivity-to-the-max. But here goes . . . within the past few years, I spent a lot of time testing and evaluating new/modern altos. I've owned a lot of them and tried even more. I currently own seven altos from early 1920's up to a modern Selmer-Paris Reference 54.

I'll make this short rather than list all the horns I've owned or tested . . . For MY money, they don't come any better, vintage to modern, than the Reference 54 series. I wouldn't spend a dime on anything Yamaha (and I have spent many dimes on Yamahas of many persuasions, including the vaunted 82Z). I gave my fine 1963 MKVI alto to my son, and kept the Ref 54 - it is my main gigging alto.

But others will most likely offer a counter opinion, so I guess it is up to you go forth and test. For less than half the price of the Selmers, you could probably come up with a nice playing Taiwanese/Chinese-based alto, but I have yet to feel one (or play one) that came up to the level of the Ref 54. DAVE

Hi Dave,

The Patricola was a real nice clarinet. If I had the money I would have kept the Patricola and my Buffet. However it was either one or the other and to be honest I think the Buffet was a bit better than the Patricola. As I said, the rosewood is what turned me on and after the initial love for it wore off I perferred the Buffet.

About a sax, I'd really like to have my Mark IV back (about a 1963 model but it was a tenor, now I want an alto) but that went to pay my mortgage in the 70's when I was in debt. However that being said I don't have the money for one now. I can spend up to $ 2900 dollars on a Sax. That is the cash I got back from the patricola, and I'd like to spend less than that to get some other barrels for the Buffet and other accessories.

I've looked at the Yamaha YAS-62II and played it at Dillon Music. It played real nice and it's more than the price I want to spend. But I also see an Amati AAS63 or AAS 83P-0 and a few others in the $1500 dollar range which is more what I'd like to spend. That's not saying I'll keep it forever but it's a start with an alto. Any suggestions are always welcome. There is also a guy near me that has a lot of old martin sax's but I kind of like to get new instruments. It's a thing with me :)

Thanks,

Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Steve: It is probably the player and not the horn. But as long as money is being spent, it should go to the best you can afford - and maybe even beyond that, if possible.

Personally I wouldn't have ANYTHING in my home with that other guy's name on it (referring to saxismyaxe's post; Mike is one of the good guys but the vendor he mentioned is the focus of my ire) regardless of how well it played and it was free. But that's just me.

It is difficult to judge an entire line based on one playing experience, but when I was trying out altos at Dave Kessler's store in Las Vegas a while back, I played a new, and well-set-up Yamaha 62II in the process. No cigar - not even a cigar butt. I bought his own house-brand rather than the Yamaha.

All of the Ref 54's I've played had the same tonal quality, e.g., deep and focused - I haven't felt or played anything like that in new altos. I owned what turned out to be the best 82Z I'd played - played it next to my vintage altos as well as my Ref 54, a B&S Medusa (which I still own) and my MKVI. Ref 54 altos are, in my opinion, the most consistent of the modern altos.

At a NAMM Show, I played a new Cannonball "Vintage" and it was terrific. I don't know how available they are now nor how much they cost, but in my opinion, they would be well worth the effort to seek one out and give it a blow. Several other guys I knew at the show also were impressed with the CB Vintage (as opposed to other CB saxophones at their booth; the rest were merely okay, in my view).

Lastly, Dave Kessler imports a saxophone line that is inexpensive yet plays very well. You should call him in Las Vegas and ask. I bought one for my grandson (he loves it) and I own Kessler's tenor - nice horn for the price. DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Steve: It is probably the player and not the horn. But as long as money is being spent, it should go to the best you can afford - and maybe even beyond that, if possible.

Personally I wouldn't have ANYTHING in my home with that other guy's name on it (referring to saxismyaxe's post; Mike is one of the good guys but the vendor he mentioned is the focus of my ire) regardless of how well it played and it was free. But that's just me.

It is difficult to judge an entire line based on one playing experience, but when I was trying out altos at Dave Kessler's store in Las Vegas a while back, I played a new, and well-set-up Yamaha 62II in the process. No cigar - not even a cigar butt. I bought his own house-brand rather than the Yamaha.

All of the Ref 54's I've played had the same tonal quality, e.g., deep and focused - I haven't felt or played anything like that in new altos. I owned what turned out to be the best 82Z I'd played - played it next to my vintage altos as well as my Ref 54, a B&S Medusa (which I still own) and my MKVI. Ref 54 altos are, in my opinion, the most consistent of the modern altos.

At a NAMM Show, I played a new Cannonball "Vintage" and it was terrific. I don't know how available they are now nor how much they cost, but in my opinion, they would be well worth the effort to seek one out and give it a blow. Several other guys I knew at the show also were impressed with the CB Vintage (as opposed to other CB saxophones at their booth; the rest were merely okay, in my view).

Lastly, Dave Kessler imports a saxophone line that is inexpensive yet plays very well. You should call him in Las Vegas and ask. I bought one for my grandson (he loves it) and I own Kessler's tenor - nice horn for the price. DAVE

Hi Dave,

I fully agree about the player and not the horn. But starting with a good horn is a good thing :). I also think I understand what you said about the "Other Guy". Based on an email I just got from him I almost feel like I'm dealing with a used car salesman. ie: "I may be able to fit another one in this present order provided you pay for it now". I just looked at the Kessler and they look very nice for the money. I'm going to enquire about them as well.

Thanks for the tips.

Steve

[Ed Svoboda]

I had a Yamaha 62 from the beginning of the run that was a great horn. I suspect that you can find a used one near the price range you are looking. A Yanagisawa 880 or even 901 might be found in that same range on the used market. I really like the yani altos (and baritones).

[Dave Dolson]

Ed and Steve: I agree about the original Yamaha 62 series and the Yanagisawas, overall. In the early 1990s, I bought a silver plated Yamaha 62 soprano. It was a good horn but I gave it to my daughter (who still has it). I used it for quite a while but in the end, it just lacked a certain something when compared to my Yanagisawas and old Bueschers (and of course my favorite Ref 54). In my view, the Yanagisawas have it all over the whole Yamaha line.

I also bought a new Yanagisawa A992 but traded it away a while back. Nice enough horn but it too lacked that certain something I was looking for in an alto. An early new Yanagisawa 880 alto went to my oldest grandson (now at the US Air Force Academy). He loves it and was able to be a hit where ever he played it. DAVE

[saxismyaxe]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the kind words my friend, however I'm not the guy who recommended a certain vendor's horn in my post. That was Retread.;)

Cheers.

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

I ordered a Custom Kessler Alto. For 1295 I get to try it for 3 days. If I don't like it I can return it and it only costs the shipping back. I figured what the heck. I'll go try a bunch this week at the local stores and I'll be able to make up my mind when the Kessler comes next week. I already tried a Yamaha 62II. It was nice.

Steve

[retread]

Just for clarification, I did not recommend any sax. I did mention one that has had good reviews on SOTW, and provided a link in case Steve wanted to see the reviews. I have never played a Barone-branded sax, and never recommend anything I have not played. Likewise, I have never played a Kessler, but have seen good reviews of them.

With Taiwanese or Chinese instruments, I suspect it's the importer's standards and set-up after importation that are important. I couldn't be happier with my Ridenour Lyrique clarinet, which is manufactured in China, but extensively fine-tuned by Tom Ridenour in Baja Oklahoma.

[stevethemusicman]

Just for clarification, I did not recommend any sax. I did mention one that has had good reviews on SOTW, and provided a link in case Steve wanted to see the reviews. I have never played a Barone-branded sax, and never recommend anything I have not played. Likewise, I have never played a Kessler, but have seen good reviews of them.

With Taiwanese or Chinese instruments, I suspect it's the importer's standards and set-up after importation that are important. I couldn't be happier with my Ridenour Lyrique clarinet, which is manufactured in China, but extensively fine-tuned by Tom Ridenour in Baja Oklahoma.

Hi Retread,

No offense taken by me. I didn't get a feeling of pushing the sax. I believe all opinions are important to make a decision and that decision is made by me. However I don't think that I would buy the Barone even if there weren't any comments. I didn't like how the owner answered my email. When I feel like I should not do business with them I don't.

Thanks,
Steve

[stevethemusicman]

Hi Again,

By the way even if the Kessler isn't up to my standards I wouldn't hesitate doing business with them when purchasing another instrument. They talked open and honestly to me and that helps to make a sale. Hopefully I'll love it and keep it but at least I feel good about ordering it and, if I was in Las Vegas I would have gone to their store to try them out.

Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Retread AND saxismyaxe: My apologies . . . I see where it was Retread that commented about "the other guy's" product, but fif not make a recommendation. Sorry about that.

Dave Kessler is a class act and I'm guessing that horn will surprise you. DAVE

[stevethemusicman]

Retread AND saxismyaxe: My apologies . . . I see where it was Retread that commented about "the other guy's" product, but fif not make a recommendation. Sorry about that.

Dave Kessler is a class act and I'm guessing that horn will surprise you. DAVE

I have a good feeling about the Kessler as well or I wouldn't have ordered it to try. Spending 50 bucks or more to send it back just for trying it would bankrupt me quickly :)

Again, thanks for you're input. I just joined the sax forum and will probably see you there as well.

Steve

[clarnibass]

Just to clarify some things that I think can be confusing in this thread.

Taiwanese and Chinese were referred in the same way. They are still very different, and saxophones from China are still not at the level of saxophones from Taiwan. They also cost very different. This is based on playing many types from each country.

Re Taiwanese saxophones from Barone which get a lot of good reviews on SOTW: I think there is something important to consider. Forums can sometimes give a distorted view.

For example: I bought a product that was very praised on a clarinet forum. I bought it because I wanted it, not because of those reviews, but if I saw a lot of bad reviews I don't know if I would buy it. When I got it, I found a lot of problems that were never mentioned in any review. The person selling this have great reviews because some of his produts are excellent, plus he is very knowledgable, and my impression is no one feels comfortable writing anything bad about any of his poroducts on this forum. Unfortunately I found that this "trend" is likely on most forums.....

I'm not saying this is the case with Barone, I've never seen any of his saoxphones. However a friend recently tried one for a few days and it had all sorts of problems.

For Taiwanese and Chinese instruments, importers' standards are definitely importnat, but you can get better and worse instruments in the first place. Some Taiwanese instruments are better than others and that is before the importer even gets in the picture.

As far as recommending a sax, there are many options. No question Yanagisawa has the best and most consistent build. Yamaha are a close second, most of the time. A good Selmer Paris can also be good. Some people like Keilwerth (the soldered tone hole rings sometimes cause problems). Then there are the more known (and more expensive) Taiwanese like Mauriat (and maybe other) which are good. Some of the other, less expensive Taiwanese are also good. Also some of the great smaller companies such as the Italians Borgani and R&C can be excellent but sometimes have their quirks. Any of these (plus some others) is generally "good", but some would like some of them much more than others (and maybe the opposite for other people).

You can get a lot of those for the price you had used. Some even new. Some (both used or new, depending on the model) are less than you can spend.

Nitai

[retread]

Hey, I'm happy. I referred to Texas as Baja Oklahoma and didn't get abused. Must not be many Texans on this forum. :grin:

[saxismyaxe]

Hey, I'm happy. I referred to Texas as Baja Oklahoma and didn't get abused. Must not be many Texans on this forum. :grin:

Ahem, born and raised. Why I'm even related to Col. Travis.:cool:

[Ed Svoboda]

Texas . . . second worst place I have lived. :lol:

Alabama was the worst.

I think I'm just a midwest guy although southern California was really nice when I was there. I loved the Malibu area but I don't have that kind of money. :D

[stevethemusicman]

Hey, I'm happy. I referred to Texas as Baja Oklahoma and didn't get abused. Must not be many Texans on this forum. :grin:

Hey, I'm from New Jersey. Who cares eh?

steve

[martinm]

I had a Yamaha 62 from the beginning of the run that was a great horn. I suspect that you can find a used one near the price range you are looking. A Yanagisawa 880 or even 901 might be found in that same range on the used market. I really like the yani altos (and baritones).

I believe the competition from China and Taiwan has only made the new Yamahas better than ever. Not only the saxophone models. I just acquired a custom clarinet that plays more in tune than any of the French or Italian instruments I've ever played. And their motorcycles and audio equipment - - - - - !!

[stevethemusicman]

I believe the competition from China and Taiwan has only made the new Yamahas better than ever. Not only the saxophone models. I just acquired a custom clarinet that plays more in tune than any of the French or Italian instruments I've ever played. And their motorcycles and audio equipment - - - - - !!

Hi Martinm,

What kind of custom clarinet did you get? I'm curious about these special instruments. It seems that you can get a good instrument for less than the brand names. My Brother-in-law is in the market for a clarinet but he doesn't have much money.

Thanks,
Steve

[Dave Dolson]

Yes, there is a difference among various Asian-made instruments (Japan, Taiwan, China, Vietnam; throw India into the mix as well although I am NOT claiming India is or is not in Asia). I merely wrote "Taiwan/Chinese" as a simple way of describing the two source-countries and in no way meant to lump them all together.

I also think the build-quality is coming closer together when evaluating instruments from all over Asia (maybe not so much India, but I bet the Indian-made instruments will improve over time). It all depends on which factory put out which model based on what orders from which distributor.

I played one alto saxophone with a brand-name that had been roundly booed on that other site (no Steve, you will not see me there) and the horn was to die-for. True, the owner had technical skills and re-built the whole horn before I played it, but it just showed me that a saxophone is a saxophone and one makes it what it is.

I am anxiously awaiting your review of the Kessler. DAVE

[clarnibass]

Hi Martinm,

What kind of custom clarinet did you get? I'm curious about these special instruments. It seems that you can get a good instrument for less than the brand names. My Brother-in-law is in the market for a clarinet but he doesn't have much money.

Thanks,
Steve
All the Custom models from Yamaha are excellent. You have to try to know which one you prefer. I tried them all, and just when I thought I found which one I liked the most..... I played another and changed my mind.... and again..... and again....

[stevethemusicman]

Yes, there is a difference among various Asian-made instruments (Japan, Taiwan, China, Vietnam; throw India into the mix as well although I am NOT claiming India is or is not in Asia). I merely wrote "Taiwan/Chinese" as a simple way of describing the two source-countries and in no way meant to lump them all together.

I also think the build-quality is coming closer together when evaluating instruments from all over Asia (maybe not so much India, but I bet the Indian-made instruments will improve over time). It all depends on which factory put out which model based on what orders from which distributor.

I played one alto saxophone with a brand-name that had been roundly booed on that other site (no Steve, you will not see me there) and the horn was to die-for. True, the owner had technical skills and re-built the whole horn before I played it, but it just showed me that a saxophone is a saxophone and one makes it what it is.

I am anxiously awaiting your review of the Kessler. DAVE

Hi Dave,

I meant saxontheweb forum. Not the saxophoneforum. I thought I saw your name on that board or I might have been mistaken. I figure I should have the Kessler by next Tuesday I'm excited about it.

My only fear is that my sight transposing is going to be limited for awhile when playing duets with my wife (Trumpet) but that will be overcome. At least I hope so :). But there is always the Clarinet eh?

Steve

[retread]

Hi Martinm,

What kind of custom clarinet did you get? I'm curious about these special instruments. It seems that you can get a good instrument for less than the brand names. My Brother-in-law is in the market for a clarinet but he doesn't have much money.

Thanks,
Steve
Custom is just the Yamaha name for their top-line, factory made instruments. They're more reasonably priced than comparable Buffets (now the Buffet mafia will be after me), but still not cheap.

[Dave Dolson]

Retread: Although I love my Buffets and have never played anything better, I agree that Yamaha makes a fine clarinet. I once borrowed a high-end Yamaha clarinet from a fellow musician for a set at a festival while a local tech replaced a spring on my Buffet. The Yamaha was VERY nice, but I don't recall the model designation.

I tried to give Yamahas a good testing at the last NAMM show I attended but alas, a loud electric band cranked up right next to the clarinet display which rendered ALL testing finished.

If I were in need of a new clarinet, I'd certainly give the Yamahas (and the Patricolas) serious consideration.

I wasn't sure whether Martin meant the Yamaha "CUSTOM" line or merely was mentioning a custom-made clarinet of some unknown brand - he did not capitalize the word CUSTOM.

Steve, I knew the forum you mentioned. I used to actively participate but gave it up a while back. 'Nuff said about that. DAVE