Why Yamaha for Students? [Archive]

pete

09-01-2009, 01:34 AM

So anyone starting out on anything other than a Yamaha will have those troubles? Why do you believe that?
Hey. Start your OWN thread :).

* Maintenance: you break something on a YAS-23, chances are that Joe Music Shop down the corner has the part, in stock. Heck, he probably has 15 of that part. And technicians seem to like working on the YAS-23.

* Intonation: Yamahas are fairly decent and consistent, intonation-wise. Except for the 62's that had bad necks. They're also modern enough so I can slap a wide variety of mouthpieces on it and play it in tune.

* Keywork: If you step up a little higher than the YAS-23, the keywork is as modern as you're going to get on any horn, pro models included. Additionally, even the YAS-23 has decent, rugged keywork that's relatively easy to use (e.g. my LH pinky has been broken twice. It's difficult/hurts to play the G# cluster on most saxophones with a non-Selmer G# cluster. It feels fine on the YAS-23). Plus, you don't have to worry about G# trill keys, fork Eb fingerings, etc.

FWIW, your issues with the 82Z may have been the other horns you've played. I've been told time and time again that if you loosen up and not try to overcompensate for the intonation problems of your older horns, you'll find that it's really easy to play a newer horn in tune without struggling. Now, I don't know if that was your issue, but I have heard of it.

Finally, what other choices are there for studentia? I could say that I wanted to get a Keilwerth New King or something and that'd be decent, but that'd also be somewhat difficult to find -- and it shoots down at least two of the features I mention above. And is probably more expensive than what I'm looking for. Older Yani? Maybe, but too old = poor instrument, based on my playing of older Yanis.

Al Stevens

09-01-2009, 03:58 AM

Hey. Start your OWN thread :).
I do every now and then. Everyone is welcome. 8-)
* Maintenance: you break something on a YAS-23, chances are that Joe Music Shop down the corner has the part, in stock. Heck, he probably has 15 of that part. And technicians seem to like working on the YAS-23.

My local tech, in a very small shop, has never had a problem servicing any of my horns. I've owned Selmers, Conns, Bueschers, a Vito, a King, a Jupiter, two Barones, and the only Yamaha saxophone I will ever own, ever. I don't own it any more.

* Intonation: Yamahas are fairly decent and consistent, intonation-wise. Except for the 62's that had bad necks. They're also modern enough so I can slap a wide variety of mouthpieces on it and play it in tune.

Not a problem on any of the horns I own and have owned including the Taiwanese horns. Except for that Yamaha. So the argument that if you don't get a Yamaha, you'll have intonation problems is just not convincing.

* Keywork: If you step up a little higher than the YAS-23, the keywork is as modern as you're going to get on any horn, pro models included. Additionally, even the YAS-23 has decent, rugged keywork that's relatively easy to use (e.g. my LH pinky has been broken twice. It's difficult/hurts to play the G# cluster on most saxophones with a non-Selmer G# cluster. It feels fine on the YAS-23). Plus, you don't have to worry about G# trill keys, fork Eb fingerings, etc.

Most contemporary horns have Selmer-like keywork. And, whenever someone advises someone not to buy a 10M because of keywork, someone else always says, "You'll get used to it." Which, apparently, a lot of players did for years. But every contemporary horn I've picked up in the past few years feels mostly like my Mark VIs.

FWIW, your issues with the 82Z may have been the other horns you've played. I've been told time and time again that if you loosen up and not try to overcompensate for the intonation problems of your older horns, you'll find that it's really easy to play a newer horn in tune without struggling. Now, I don't know if that was your issue, but I have heard of it.

The issues were: (1) Everyone who played the horn, including teachers at the dealership, had intonation problems from D3 up. (2) Yamaha and the dealer were unwilling to correct the problem. (This was with the new neck that was supposed to address that problem.) It was a bad horn, not a player problem. A lemon. And Yamaha wouldn't fix it.

Finally, what other choices are there for studentia?

Students have many choices now. Many good horns suitable for students and pros and that blow away the big four price-wise.

It's true you usually can't go wrong with a YTS23, for example. But it's just not true that buying Yamaha is the only way you can't go wrong.

pete

09-01-2009, 07:58 PM

I'd submit that there are a lot of bad choices for students.

There used to be two choices: Selmer USA (Bundy II) or Yamaha 23 -- as said, the former is if you're gonna beat on the horn, the latter is if you're gonna take care of it. Selmer now brands the LaVoix/LaVie and they're Chinese/Taiwanese horns of dubious quality (I base this only on the reviews I've read; I have no particular experience with them).

This isn't to say that there aren't bunches of horns out there that are marketed as "student model". It's to say that there aren't a lot of good quality student horns out there.

I'll split this discussion into a separate thread, in a bit. I think it warrants further discussion.

Dave Dolson

09-01-2009, 08:35 PM

I would not lock into Yamaha saxophones of any level. I once owned what I considered to be the best 82Z alto (this one happened to be a lacquered model) I'd tried (and that was MANY). Yet, the Z I owned was mediocre at best when compared to other altos in my closet.

I played a Yamaha 62 silver soprano (when the 62 was top-o'-the-line) for a few years but my oldest daughter has it now. I've played better sopranos.

I have played a couple of 23 altos that were surprisingly good players but their tonal quality seemed a bit "hard" (I don't know how else to describe them). Maybe BRIGHT is a better descriptor. Both had the same tonal quality, too.

I bought my then 11-year old grandson a new Kessler alto a while back. It played better than a new Yamaha 62II that Kessler had for sale that day. My grandson, now 13, still likes the Kessler and it still plays fine.

I'm guessing that among all the brands out there, some will play fine while others - won't. If I were looking today for a new student-level alto, I'd go to Kessler's and opt for one of the Taiwanese-made saxophones he sells.

Would a 23 (new or used) work? Sure, but I'd personally be more selective. DAVE

pete

09-01-2009, 08:54 PM

> My local tech, in a very small shop, has never had a problem servicing any of my horns. I've owned Selmers, Conns, Bueschers, a Vito, a King, a Jupiter, two Barones, and the only Yamaha saxophone I will ever own, ever.
This has not been my experience. With a simple repair -- ripped pad or damaged cork -- the local shops have been able to fix the problem without issue. Broken keys? Damaged keyguards/necks? Well, they can send away for the parts -- if the horn's new enough -- or modify something to fit, maybe. However, with something as common as the Yamaha 23, they probably have the part right there. That's what I'm referring to.

> Most contemporary horns have Selmer-like keywork. And, whenever someone advises someone not to buy a 10M because of keywork, someone else always says, "You'll get used to it." Which, apparently, a lot of players did for years. But every contemporary horn I've picked up in the past few years feels mostly like my Mark VIs.
The Yamaha 275 and newer horns do have Selmer-BA-like keywork. The 23 doesn't. What I'm referring to more is alternate keywork, especially the articulated G# and/or G# cluster layout. I'd really prefer students to play a Yamaha 32/34/475/52/575 because they do have the Selmer-style keywork, but these are much more expensive, even used.

"You'll get used to it" sounds an awful lot like "It builds character".

> It was a bad horn, not a player problem. A lemon. And Yamaha wouldn't fix it.
I think there's a bit of a difference in two respects: first, I'm assuming your horn was under warranty and the horns I've been looking at are way off warranty -- if I had a problem with a used instrument, I just get it fixed on my dime; no approval from anyone needed -- and second, well, why'd you buy the horn if everyone that played it said that it was out of tune? I assume you playtested the heck out of it: those Yamaha Customs cost a lot of cash.

While I fully comprehend that there could be a lemon in the bunch, I haven't played a single Yamaha saxophone or clarinet that wasn't good -- and some of the custom pro horns were excellent. And many, many folks have had similar experiences. It's kinda like saying, "I had one Mark VI that was junk. That means all Mark VIs are junk." (Hey, even my comments about how I thought all Conns were junk was based on my having owned several vintage Conns and having played several more, all made from about 1914 to 1930. It took playing a 30M for me to change my opinion.)

> Students have many choices now. Many good horns suitable for students and pros and that blow away the big four price-wise.
Name one that has anywhere near the performance and reliability of the Yamaha 23.

There are really two parts to this: what's a better USED student alto for $300 US or under and what's a better NEW student alto for approximately $1759? In the latter case, I'd say, "That's way too darn much! I'll buy a used pro horn for that!" (especially when the YAS-475, a much better horn, is less than $100 more). In the former case, I can't think of anything other than a Bundy II or a YAS-23. As mentioned, you might be able to get an older Yani or Keilwerth -- on eBay and on a good day -- for that, but that's a bit doubtful.

Al Stevens

09-01-2009, 10:20 PM

> It was a bad horn, not a player problem. A lemon. And Yamaha wouldn't fix it.
I think there's a bit of a difference in two respects: first, I'm assuming your horn was under warranty and the horns I've been looking at are way off warranty...and second, well, why'd you buy the horn if everyone that played it said that it was out of tune?

It's a long story that I told before elsewhere. But since you asked:

You got it backwards. I didn't buy a horn that everyone said sucked. Everyone said a horn I already bought sucked.

When I bought the Yamaha, about six years ago, I was relatively new to saxophone playing having not played one since high school. I did not have a tuner with me. Most of my playing at that time was not in the range that had the problem, and I just didn't realize there was a problem. My bad. I found the problem a couple months later as my playing progressed. (I'm an unusually fast learner when it comes to music.)

Figuring it might be pilot error, I asked other players, including my teacher, who teaches at the store where I bought the horn, to try it out. They all said the same thing. This horn plays out of tune.

Yes, it was still under warranty, and no, neither the store nor Yamaha would take it back or fix it. It was an unlacquered model, and they said they couldn't resell it. I said, why would you want to resell it? It's a POS. You can guess where it went from there. :grin:

That's not the end of the long story, but it's enough to make my point. Anyone interested in the complete saga can search other sites for my name and Yamaha and be further bored by my rant.

Thus my position that buying a Yamaha saxophone does not guarantee you're getting a good product. I've walked that walk.

My experience with other saxes is the basis for my opposition to the assertion here that buying anything other than Yamaha virtually guarantees problems.

(In January I gave my gold-plated Barone tenor to my daughter who said she wanted a saxophone. It's coming home today. She didn't have time to play it. I eagerly await its return. I've had it since Phil first started selling them and used it a lot. No problems so far.)

tictactux

09-01-2009, 10:33 PM

I hear you, Al.

In a way, Yamaha is to musical instruments as what Toyota is to cars - you can be pretty sure that you get a decent piece of hardware for your money. Some are great, and some are just, well, dependable but decently do their job.

That doesn't mean to say that no one in Japan ever has a bad day at work, and every so rarely someone picks up an item with, uhm, compatibility issues. (did I mention I've been working in marketing in a former life?)

What I don't understand is that they didn't simply admitted their fault and simply replaced the instrument. <scratches head>

Connical

09-01-2009, 11:45 PM

>
...

There are really two parts to this: what's a better USED student alto for $300 US or under and what's a better NEW student alto for approximately $1759? In the latter case, I'd say, "That's way too darn much! I'll buy a used pro horn for that!" (especially when the YAS-475, a much better horn, is less than $100 more). In the former case, I can't think of anything other than a Bundy II or a YAS-23. As mentioned, you might be able to get an older Yani or Keilwerth -- on eBay and on a good day -- for that, but that's a bit doubtful.

Point well made!

I think we also need to remind ourselves that almost everyone else out there who is looking to buy a sax for the first time, does not have the extensive experience with horns that many of us already have. Offering Yamaha as the best option is a safe play. Yamaha's are readily available, cheap, and consistent, and enjoy a popular resale market. While they may not bring thousands, they still sell easily and can be turned back into cash quickly. I have a Jupiter in really nice condition, but the beater Yamaha I own, is far easier to resale. While companies like Barone, Kessler, and Antigua offer some strong values today, I doubt their resale and popularity will match Yamaha down the road. Yamaha consistentcy assures me that they will still be in demand later on, these other companies lack the history to determine such a statement. They may be great values tomorrow, but it's a gamble, Yamaha is not a gamble.

Al Stevens

09-02-2009, 02:58 AM

What I don't understand is that they didn't simply admitted their fault and simply replaced the instrument. <scratches head>
They paid an admittedly small price for that. I won't buy anything there as a result, and I won't buy a Yamaha anything new from anyone.

The larger price is in PR. I have no qualms about telling folks about it. Joe Girard's Rule of 250, and all that.

Oh, well, buy American, that's my motto. Yeah, right.

My Barone tenor got home a while ago. I just popped it in, and realized I'd forgotten how much I like it. One thing I like is the G3 key. I've never been able to hit G3 on any other tenor. Now I can play Yesterdays in the upper register again.

Al Stevens

09-02-2009, 03:27 AM

While companies like Barone, Kessler, and Antigua offer some strong values today, I doubt their resale and popularity will match Yamaha down the road.
That was one of my original points. Wait a short while and those closet Barones, Antiguas, Jupiters, etc. will be on the used market for peanuts. Who cares whether a bargain is popular if it's playable?
Yamaha consistentcy assures me that they will still be in demand later on
What else would you expect them to say?
... these other companies lack the history to determine such a statement. They may be great values tomorrow, but it's a gamble,
I don't see the gamble. So what if Barone stops selling saxes for whatever reason some day? Will the horns all go poof and self-destruct on that day?

Despite what you read here, parts and service will not be a problem. They all use pretty much the same parts. Those factories won't go away. And if a demand to service them builds, that demand will be met. The tech I use can fix anything you bring in the door. Anything that hasn't been flattened by a truck, that is.

Think about it. Bueschers, Conns, Kings, Martins, etc. They're still playing.
Yamaha is not a gamble.
Should I repeat the story about my experience with Yamaha's service? I gambled and lost, which is why I whimper and whine about it. I know. I need to get over it. Maybe there's a 12-step program...

SOTSDO

09-02-2009, 03:34 AM

Barone's horns are made here in the US of A? When did that bit of good fortune start happening? I thought all American instrument "manufacturing" (as opposed to "hand crafted") had moved off shore long, long ago.

clarnibass

09-02-2009, 06:18 AM

I am not sure about the newer Yamaha 275, because I haven't had the chance to check one thoroughly, but I've checked a lot of 23s. The strange thing is, the mechanical problems of the 23 are almsot never mentioned. Maybe because players are not usually aware of them. Here is my opinions on this.

For many years, pretty much since it came out (the 21 model at first) the Yamaha student model was basically by far the best student instrument. It had/has very tough and strong metal (some of the hardest saxophones for dent repair), relatively simply and great mechanical design, excellent ergnomic keys, good tone, and usualy excellent intonation.

IMO, for a long time no student model was that good, not even close. For example a known student model, the Bundy II, is so much worse it's almost a ridiculous comparison. The Bundy II has a bad mechanical design, which makes working on it much arder (especially the design of the key arms), is less ergnonomic, and IMO the tone is more aggressive, less consistent and not as good intonation.

But the Yamaha 23 still has mechanical problems that are important to mention. These are un-level tone holes and stack rod screws that are loose in their posts. What this means is, that the saxophone will play great for a while, maybe even a long time, but when eventually it is time to have a major repair, those issues make it more expensive to fix than if it didn't have those issues. Since Yamaha uses relaitvely hard pads, those issues could become significant sooner than later. But even with those issues, there was for a very long time nothing as good.

Then Taiwanese and Chinese started improving, mostly in the last few years. My country is sometimes a little late to get the newest things, but when I recently was in Musikmesse and tried so many Chinese and Taiwanese saxophones, I almost couldn't beleive it. The quality at that price was something you just couldn't find before. The good Taiwanese models and some of the better Chinese models didn't have those issues the Yamaha 23 has, and especailly the Chinese, cost significantly less. In fact, the Taiwanese had some of the most accurate build keys I've seen from any company. They impressed me a lot so I'm now even considering selling them locally. I made a sample order to check them thoroughly and found the build quality is really some of the best I've seen. The tone and intonation are also excellent.

I wouldn't be confortable selling a Yamaha 23 without mentioning the problematic issues to the buyer. If I fixed them before selling, I would probably not be able to sell it at a price that is competitive. Unfortunately in every case that I've one of these that was supposedly repadded, those issues weren't completely fixed. I think think it's a good saxophone, but with is available now it's hard to recommend it anymore. Even used, it's hard to believe a 23 which had all those mechanical problems fixed could sell at a very competitive price compared with some decent Chinese instruments. The Chinese and Taiwanese models made by Conn-Selmer that Pete mentioned are sometimes ok too but are overpriced IMO, probably because they have those big names on them.

jbtsax

09-02-2009, 03:14 PM

Despite what you read here, parts and service will not be a problem. They all use pretty much the same parts. Those factories won't go away. And if a demand to service them builds, that demand will be met. The tech I use can fix anything you bring in the door. Anything that hasn't been flattened by a truck, that is.
Sorry to disagree Al, but "pretty much the same parts" doesn't address the issue. Most of the "off the shelf" Taiwanese saxes that are stenciled with Barone, etc. do not have parts available. I am a full time repair tech, and I do not know of any source for parts for these instruments, nor do I know which factory in Taiwan they come from. The exceptions are the brand specific companies whose instruments are made in Taiwan such as Antigua Winds, Mauriat, Jupiter, Cannonball etc. who do go to the time and expense of stocking parts for every model they sell. Sure any good tech can fabricate a part for anything. To do it well and make it match the rest of the sax cosmetically can take 2 hours or more of shop time and the accompanying cost.

Remember the title of this thread is "Why Yamaha for Students". Just because a pro adult player may never need a key or part replaced on his saxophone does not mean that is true for players of all ages. My experience in the shop has been that parts are essential to good, fast repairs at a reasonable cost.

Barone's horns are made here in the US of A? When did that bit of good fortune start happening? I thought all American instrument "manufacturing" (as opposed to "hand crafted") had moved off shore long, long ago. I think Al was being sarcastic. Barone's saxes are made in Taiwan in an undisclosed location (even to him according to some of his posts on SOTW).

John

Al Stevens

09-02-2009, 04:42 PM

Al Stevens

09-02-2009, 05:13 PM

Sorry to disagree Al, but "pretty much the same parts" doesn't address the issue. Most of the "off the shelf" Taiwanese saxes that are stenciled with Barone, etc. do not have parts available. I am a full time repair tech, and I do not know of any source for parts for these instruments...
That does not mean that others do not know the sources, however, or how to interchange parts. As demand builds--and it will (economics 101)--this issue becomes a non-issue.

Also, when a good saxophone is cheaper than a repad job, the saxophone becomes a disposable commodity. Don't fix it. Replace it.

I realize that the Taiwanese instrument stencils who pay to establish high advertising profiles and have higher prices to cover their overheads don't want any of this to be true, but, oh, well...

The influx of affordable Asian saxophones is like a drum solo. You can tell it's coming, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Remember the title of this thread is "Why Yamaha for Students".
Not my title even though the thread is attributed to me.

Connical

09-02-2009, 06:11 PM

That was one of my original points. Wait a short while and those closet Barones, Antiguas, Jupiters, etc. will be on the used market for peanuts. Who cares whether a bargain is popular if it's playable?

You are 100% right, great deals will be had someday. But not so great for those who already have them and want to recoup some cash.

I don't see the gamble. So what if Barone stops selling saxes for whatever reason some day? Will the horns all go poof and self-destruct on that day?

It's only a gamble for the newbie who lacks the necessary contacts
to find a reputable servicer and parts supplier. Anyone can find a
dealer that can service and supply parts for Yamaha.

Despite what you read here, parts and service will not be a problem. They all use pretty much the same parts. Those factories won't go away. And if a demand to service them builds, that demand will be met. The tech I use can fix anything you bring in the door. Anything that hasn't been flattened by a truck, that is.

Think about it. Bueschers, Conns, Kings, Martins, etc. They're still playing.

You are mistaken in comparing companies like the above. These were the best of yesteryear. The Taiwan companies of today, hardly measure up to those industry greats. A better comparison would be the little guys from yesteryear that have since disappeared. Companies like Pedler and Whitehall who sold stencil horns for the most part. Since they both used so many different sources, it's often very difficult or impossible to determine where they originated from.
This is identical to what is happening with the countless Taiwan and Chinese factories that are producing dozens of competing horns today. Can you tell me the factory or manufacturer where they all originated ? Years down the road, the main source of parts will be as it is today for the Whitehalls and Pedlers. That is of course, other same model Whitehall and Pedler horns, or Barone, Antigua ...if you can find one.

Should I repeat the story about my experience with Yamaha's service? I gambled and lost, which is why I whimper and whine about it. I know. I need to get over it. Maybe there's a 12-step program...

I feel your pain. Nothing hits home more than a bad experience with a lemon. Especially when it's one of your first new horns.
As with all mass produced products, there will be some lemons.
Yamaha is lnown for making less lemons per 1000, but they still do make some.
I like to think of this thread as a 12 step program. " My name is Stephen, and I owned a lemon. (Conn 10m) "

Al Stevens

09-02-2009, 06:35 PM

You are mistaken in comparing companies like the above.
Not a comparison, but to make a point. Horns manufactured in days of yore by now-defunct companies are still being played and maintained today. I had a 1919 Buescher tenor unplayable with original everything including cloth pads. The overhaul cost what any overhaul costs and did not take a long time. Parts are available. A ninety-year-old saxophone made by a company that went away over forty years ago plays like new today.

Taiwanese horns are plentiful even today. Many of the parts are interchangeable. It doesn't matter where they were made. Who cares? As the horns age and need service, that demand creates a market for parts. Not a problem. The Taiwanese are pretty good at making copies of things and exploiting the marketplace.

Al Stevens

09-02-2009, 06:41 PM

You are 100% right, great deals will be had someday. But not so great for those who already have them and want to recoup some cash.

Nothing new there. My car isn't worth near what I paid for it. Have you tried to sell a house lately? A saxophone as an investment? Those were the good ol' days.

Connical

09-02-2009, 07:07 PM

Not a comparison, but to make a point. Horns manufactured in days of yore by now-defunct companies are still being played and maintained today. I had a 1919 Buescher tenor unplayable with original everything including cloth pads. The overhaul cost what any overhaul costs and did not take a long time. Parts are available. A ninety-year-old saxophone made by a company that went away over forty years ago plays like new today.

Taiwanese horns are plentiful even today. Many of the parts are interchangeable. It doesn't matter where they were made. Who cares? As the horns age and need service, that demand creates a market for parts. Not a problem. The Taiwanese are pretty good at making copies of things and exploiting the marketplace.

A valid point. There will be plenty of good sources down the road, but not for everything. I'm sure Barone and Kessler products will be available. But imagine this scenario. What if Phil died tomorrow ? (Heaven forbid) How long will it take before some confusion sets in. Today if I have a question, I pick up the phone and call Phil. Question answered. What about tomorrow ? This is when a new tech, seeking answers will get confused. Where do I go ? Who made this ? There will be techs who know these answers tomorrow. But like today. If you walk into 100 repair shops and ask them questions about that Truetone, not every one will have the knowledge and experience to help you out. This is why a Truetone would be a poor choice for a student (among many), since that student would have to know a good tech with the necessary experience to help them out. Since we are talking about student horns, the last thing a clueless student needs, is a tough time finding a knowlegable servicer.

Yamaha is well over 100 years old, and started out as a music instrument maker. I have in my home countless Yamaha electronic pieces, as well as 2 motorcycles. They will be here tomorrow. They are a Japanese institution, maybe THE Japanese institution.

Keilwerth and Yanagisawa were once tiny companies that have prospered and are now well respected companies.
I'm sure at least a couple of these new companies will survive as well. But who is to say who ?

Students quit playing for a variety of reasons. Pointing towards a Yamaha takes many of the reasons away .
This is not to be overlooked . So many students quit due to a lack of progress. Progress that can be
hindered by a horn in need of repair. Taiwan horns as well as Chinese horns can be serviced too, but not by everyone.

I may very well buy a Barone horn in the near future. My desire has been kindled by the many positive reviews from people such as yourself. But I still wouldn't advise my neighbor to buy one for their student. It's far safer to put them on a stable and well occupied road.

Connical

09-02-2009, 07:20 PM

Nothing new there. My car isn't worth near what I paid for it. Have you tried to sell a house lately? A saxophone as an investment? Those were the good ol' days.

Touche' , well said !

Well I've spent enough time wagging my tongue or is it mouse ? I'm off to work on my
1979 Yamaha XS Eleven. Good thing I have a '78 parts bike to rob some parts from ! =)

clarnibass

09-02-2009, 07:29 PM

I think the issue of spare parts depends on area maybe. My experience is very different. I stock pads to fit all saxophones, I have many pivot screws for many models. I have all springs, etc. etc. But other than that, I have some other parts (other types of screws, etc.) but not really that much. Rod screws I make. Other occasional parts, I would make.

It is rare for me to actually need a key, a key guard, a post, or anyting like that. In fact it's extremely rare. That is from repairing instruments for players of all levels. There are so many different brands so to stock so many parts would actually be a lot more expensive, both to me and for customers, than not stocking them. I don't remember a case where not having a spare part was a problem. In the rare situation when a part is missing and making it would be too expensive, I would order it.

For parts for the more "private" Taiwanese or Chinese instruments like Barone, I think you could probably contact Barone and he can get parts. But sometimes parts from other Taiwanese/Chinese models would fit and worth checking.

pete

09-02-2009, 09:18 PM

Remember the title of this thread is "Why Yamaha for Students".Not my title even though the thread is attributed to me.
I do have a note on the original post that I split this from my thread which was just a "Wanted to Buy" ad. Sorry for any cofnusion.

Not a comparison, but to make a point. Horns manufactured in days of yore by now-defunct companies are still being played and maintained today. I had a 1919 Buescher tenor unplayable with original everything including cloth pads. The overhaul cost what any overhaul costs and did not take a long time. Parts are available. A ninety-year-old saxophone made by a company that went away over forty years ago plays like new today.
And I had a 1919-ish Wurlitzer alto (Conn stencil) and it was ... average. I also have played 1940's era Conn Cavaliers and a host of Pan Americans. They ranged in quality from "junk" to "below average". The point I'm making is "old" doesn't necessarily equal "great". And, if you're comparing professional models to student models, that can be an apples to oranges comparison. (Although I do think the YAS-23 would blow away a lot of professional models from the 1920's.)

A saxophone as an investment? Those were the good ol' days.
I don't think those days ever existed.

A Selmer Mark VI alto in 1957 cost $455, according to the catalog I have. That's a little under $3500 in today's money. And that's a bit higher than the average price that Mark VI altos sell at.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that new prices don't go up. I bought my YBS-52 in 1989 for $1800. The YBS-52 is now a shade under $4600 -- calculating only inflation rate says it should only be about $3100 (which is around what a used one sells for, according to a brief eBay search). Well, I did get it on sale.

And those are for Selmer and Yamaha: those are big brand names. A Conn New Wonder cost $190 in 1922 for a full Artist's Special gold plate finish (the Virtuoso Deluxe was special order). That's about $2300 in today's money. They haven't sold for that in a long while.

The point saxophones, at best, retain their value. The exceptions are only the extremely rare models, like contrabasses and Buescher's tipped bell horns.

Of course, this is another topic and has no real bearing on student horns: student horns rarely retain their value.

Barone.
Based on the comparison pics that I've seen on SOTW, Barones seem to be P. Mauriat copies and/or made at the same place -- and Barone mentions on his website in big type that the horn is Taiwanese.

I think one model of Barone wasn't P. Mauriat-esque, but some other manufacturer. I don't specifically remember. I remember I commented that the Barone in comparison to the P. Mauriat, at least in the pictures I saw, wasn't as well formed or assembled. (Gandalfe posted in that thread, too, so he might remember the linky.)

In any event, the Barone saxophones are cheaper than the Yamaha 23 and are priced a little cheaper (on average) than the P. Mauriat student/intermediate horns. (I can also say that there's a closed eBay ad for a student model P. Mauriat, 8 months old -- and looked it -- for $950. That's about $600 less than new).

Parts.
Again, my point wasn't necessarily that you could order parts or hunt down the dealer for a different horn, it's "immediate availability". Like, "I've got a concert tonight and the octave key broke". With a YAS-23, you probably have the part lying around. You don't have to wait 6 weeks to order.

There will be plenty of good sources down the road, but not for everything. I'm sure Barone and Kessler products will be available. But imagine this scenario. What if Phil died tomorrow ? (Heaven forbid) How long will it take before some confusion sets in. Today if I have a question, I pick up the phone and call Phil. Question answered. What about tomorrow ? This is when a new tech, seeking answers will get confused. Where do I go ? Who made this ? There will be techs who know these answers tomorrow. But like today. If you walk into 100 repair shops and ask them questions about that Truetone, not every one will have the knowledge and experience to help you out. This is why a Truetone would be a poor choice for a student (among many), since that student would have to know a good tech with the necessary experience to help them out. Since we are talking about student horns, the last thing a clueless student needs, is a tough time finding a knowlegable servicer.
+1. Excellent post.

Yamaha consistentcy assures me that they will still be in demand later on
What else would you expect them to say?
You misinterpreted this, Al. How about, "Yamaha's consistent quality throughout their various product lines makes me believe that their products will always be in demand"?

========

Everyone, please tone down the sarcasm -- or at least tag your posts "[ban_me_now]" ... I mean "[sarcasm]". a) People who don't speak English as a native language aren't going to understand your sarcasm and b) Some of the posts here aren't sarcastic and aren't meant to be.

Additionally, try to stay somewhat on topic. Remember, this thread is about STUDENT horns. It's great that, say, a Reference 36 is going to retain a lot of value 50 years from now, but how does that compare with a LaVie?

Personally, I don't care about getting whatever horn: I'm not buying one. A beginner might want to look here for some good advice, though. Keep that in mind.

Thanks!

Al Stevens

09-02-2009, 10:12 PM

The point I'm making is "old" doesn't necessarily equal "great". And, if you're comparing professional models to student models, that can be an apples to oranges comparison. (Although I do think the YAS-23 would blow away a lot of professional models from the 1920's.)
We may be approaching a point where student models and pro models are virtually indistinguishable from a player's perspective. Perhaps build quality will become the defining line.

I don't think those days ever existed.
Quinn the Eskimo might disagree.
...
Based on the comparison pics that I've seen on SOTW, Barones seem to be P. Mauriat copies and/or made at the same place...

There was a lot of confusion and a lot of hyperbole over that. My PB tenor has keywork identical to one of the PM professional models. But I don't think one can form any solid conclusions just based on that, other than if I ever need parts...

Also, mine was among the first, and apparently Phil had to go elsewhere when PM put pressure on the factory.

Then Phil split with his partner who is selling Chinese horns with Phil's name on them while Phil is selling Taiwanese horns with Phil's name on them. The provenance of Barone horns is now somewhat obscure.

So now there's a "classic" model of a product that's only a couple of years old. 8-) This kind of chaos will probably influence the used market.

You misinterpreted this, Al. How about, "Yamaha's consistent quality throughout their various product lines makes me believe that their products will always be in demand"?
Please reread what I responded to. I interpreted it literally as, "Yamaha said to the poster what the poster said Yamaha said," which is what anyone would expect Yamaha to say, which is what I said. Got that? :-D It wasn't what the poster said; it was what he said Yamaha told him. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Connical

09-02-2009, 10:25 PM

Please reread what I responded to. I interpreted it literally as, "Yamaha said to the poster what the poster said Yamaha said," which is what anyone would expect Yamaha to say, which is what I said. Got that? :-D It wasn't what the poster said; it was what he said Yamaha told him. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

My error ! I did mean it as a personal opinion, and not as hyperbole from Yamaha. No need to apologize for my gaff !

Al Stevens

09-02-2009, 11:19 PM

My error ! I did mean it as a personal opinion, and not as hyperbole from Yamaha. No need to apologize for my gaff !
Aha! It's a typo. You said:

"Yamaha consistentcy assures me that they will still be in demand later on"

I read it as:

"Yamaha consistently assures me..."

But you meant:

Yamaha's consistency assures me..."

More my fault than yours. Sorry. Pete was right.

SteveSklar

09-03-2009, 12:06 AM

I think one model of Barone wasn't P. Mauriat-esque, but some other manufacturer. I don't specifically remember. I remember I commented that the Barone in comparison to the P. Mauriat, at least in the pictures I saw, wasn't as well formed or assembled. (Gandalfe posted in that thread, too, so he might remember the linky.)

In any event, the Barone saxophones are cheaper than the Yamaha 23 and are priced a little cheaper (on average) than the P. Mauriat student/intermediate horns. (I can also say that there's a closed eBay ad for a student model P. Mauriat, 8 months old -- and looked it -- for $950. That's about $600 less than new).

it was a Cannonball copy (ok jbt.. it had all the same tonehole and post and keywork similarities as a CB .. maybe a rogue CB factory .. lol ). I didn't mention what i thought it was on that SOTW thread but I was the one that brought up the differences. Mostly through PMs but one original posting.

I was curious on the eBay price of Barones and PMs too. I think they are good horns.

Dave Dolson

09-03-2009, 12:20 AM

pete

09-03-2009, 01:22 AM

Sorry. Pete was right.
Sounds like you're gonna get a title, soon, Al. "Pete was right!" is so much better than "Woodwind Member" :P.

Connical

09-03-2009, 01:45 AM

Could someone describe what parts are in need of replacement?

Over my 50+ years of playing, I recall having to replace one lower keyguard on a curved Yanagisawa soprano when I carelessly bent it. It could have been straightened, too, but I chose to get a new one. It took MONTHS to get it.

The rest of my horns never needed parts, save for pads and corks/felts and springs - common items I suspect.

I will accept that over you repair-techs' careers, you may have seen a horn in need of a part - but I'm thinking not enough to corroborate the general feeling here that Taiwanese/Chinese saxophones need a lot of part-replacement. Oh, I could be wrong but I'd like to read the details . . . DAVE

I think that when a person spends their own hard earned money they do tend to take better care of their saxes. I know I do. But since the topic is discussing student saxes, most of which were supplied by mommy and daddy, a more casual attitude towards care is often adopted by students. 5 years of marching showed me that. Also take into account the numerous parents who purchased a rent to own. Often a horn that had been around the block many times. These are quite often in dire need of attention.

Like you, my luck has been pretty good with my own horns. But I have purchased countless used horns that needed repair. Horns that have been long forgotten, stored carelessly, loaned out, and generally abused or neglected. All part of the life cycle of a student model instrument. =)

Ed Svoboda

09-03-2009, 05:14 AM

I see the point Pete is trying to make. A student Yamaha is a safe choice. It feels like their higher line stuff and you can get a perfectly fine tone out of it given some level of talent.

When I started to play I used a Bundy II. The intonation is pretty good since it was based on the design of the Buescher Aristocrat (which has outstanding intonation). The ergos are not as nice as a Mark VI but it does have table keys that look like a Selmer. The mechanism is totally different so it has what could only be described as a spongy feel to it. I played it from 5th grade on. When I was in my early 30's I finally upgraded to a better horn. It now sits under my guest bed but gets pulled out once in a while and I can say that I sound better on it than I remember sounding when I was much younger. :-D

I think the key to a good student horn is that it is built like a tank and that it plays well in tune. In some ways the quality of a student horn matters more than a pro horn. By that I mean that you want a horn that stays in adjustment really well because little Johnny or Joan is going to beat the crap out of it. It's only going to see a tech when something is really wrong with it. Most of the time parents have no clue about the instrument their child is playing. So built like a tank is a big plus in my book.

For sentimental reasons I would still choose a Bundy II over a Yamaha 23.

clarnibass

09-03-2009, 08:01 AM

Based on the comparison pics that I've seen on SOTW, Barones seem to be P. Mauriat copies and/or made at the same place -- and Barone mentions on his website in big type that the horn is Taiwanese.
I don't follow the Barone advertisement on SOTW that much, but I specifically remember him saying that (at least he thought) his instruments used to be made in the same place Mauriat is made. Then after some time he changed to a different factory, and that they are now definitely not made in the same place as Mauriat. Keys and parts can look the same many times because (AFAIK) there are several "key systems" in Taiwan and the parts a lot of times are made by a certain company that supplies that type of part to many assembling places (e.g. a key guard). So even saxophones with a different body (which would sound different) could have pretty much identical keys, etc.

Again, my point wasn't necessarily that you could order parts or hunt down the dealer for a different horn, it's "immediate availability". Like, "I've got a concert tonight and the octave key broke". With a YAS-23, you probably have the part lying around. You don't have to wait 6 weeks to order.
Maybe this depends on area. Maybe your repairer happened to find that there are tons of Yamaha 23s with broken octave keys so it's worth stocking that. For example, I have never needed to replace that part. I've repaired octave keys on several models though. If I stocked just some parts for Yamaha 23 model, it's likely that I'll never have to use them.

So if I needed to stock parts to have any common part available, I would need to charge an absurd amount for those parts (for all the dead stock). Either that or raising all my prices, which to me would feel unfair to 99.9% of the customers who don't need the parts, and shouldn't finance those rare cases for those few other customers who do need the parts. Repairing or making almost all parts allows a reasonable cost to customers and in an emergency, it's usually almost as fast as replacing to a new part that is in stock (or could be even faster, in case the new part needs some fitting).

If a repairer (or store with a repairer) can afford a big stock of many different parts, then people in that area must severely break instruments a lot, which doesn't happen here. Still, someone is paying for that stock, and there's a chance it's people who don't need the parts.

Additionally, try to stay somewhat on topic. Remember, this thread is about STUDENT horns. It's great that, say, a Reference 36 is going to retain a lot of value 50 years from now, but how does that compare with a LaVie?
LaVie is either from China or Taiwan (I don't remember). It has a higher price, I'm guessing because it's from Conn-Selmer, as opposed to a store brand name or private seller with a brand (i.e. they have a famous name.... or two names actually).

A better comparison is a good but cheap Chinese saxophone. Let's say it cost $400. let's start with 5 years instead of 50. If you sell the the Ref it would probably be at least $400 less than what you bought it for, probably more. So you could throw the Chinese sax in the trash and still lose less than selling the Ref :)

That's only about the price and loss. You need to accept playing on the Chinese saxophone all that time instead of the Reference.....

I will accept that over you repair-techs' careers, you may have seen a horn in need of a part - but I'm thinking not enough to corroborate the general feeling here that Taiwanese/Chinese saxophones need a lot of part-replacement. Oh, I could be wrong but I'd like to read the details
IME this is correct. Not just Taiwanese and Chinse saxophones - all saxophones.

Al Stevens

09-03-2009, 08:14 PM

Sounds like you're gonna get a title, soon, Al. "Pete was right!" is so much better than "Woodwind Member" :P.

In which case I'd have to change my signature to "...once." :P

pete

09-03-2009, 08:52 PM

In which case I'd have to change my signature to "...once." :P
I've gotta start someplace.

pete

09-03-2009, 09:33 PM

I will accept that over you repair-techs' careers, you may have seen a horn in need of a part - but I'm thinking not enough to corroborate the general feeling here that Taiwanese/Chinese saxophones need a lot of part-replacement. Oh, I could be wrong but I'd like to read the details IME this is correct. Not just Taiwanese and Chinse saxophones - all saxophones.
That's really talking about two different things.

First, my point was -- and still is -- IF you needed a part for your horn and needed it immediately, your local repair shop probably has that part in stock for a YAS-23 (or will have a couple YAS-23's lying around that he could remove the part from). This is not a comment on instrument QUALITY in any way. It's just to say that a random repair shop probably has YAS-23 parts rather than Barone (or whatever) right there.

There was a question about what parts would need replacing. I've seen the keyguard that breaks off. I've owned horns where keywork has snapped off. I've played several school instruments that had other broken parts and/or missing parts, including posts and rod screws. I can also see a kid losing or destroying a neck. Heck, my wife's Selmer Omega is still missing that G/G# bridge piece.

Second, I cannot recommend to anyone that they get a Taiwanese, Chinese, or Vietnamese-made saxophone -- at this moment. The reason why is because I have not yet seen someone come out and say something like, "This Chinese-made horn is as quality an instrument as a Yamaha! Their quality is consistent, too -- one bad one out of 50 I've tried!" I HAVE seen posts in the form of, "Their quality is improving!" or "They're making great gains!" That's like saying you came in second place ... in a race between two people.

However, I don't necessarily think that they need more parts replacement than any other horns. I have heard of some needing more adjustment or that they go out of adjustment easily, but I don't remember if that was supposed to be a blanket statement about ALL Chinese/Taiwanese/Vietnamese horns or just for a specific company. Even if it was a blanket statement, I can think of some French makes over the years that also require a lot of TLC, like Dolnet, so "more adjustment" isn't just the provenance of SE Asian horns.

I can say that the "professional" Chinese/Taiwanese/Vietnamese saxophones are less expensive than base-model professional horns from Yamaha and Yanagisawa, for instance: $1700 for the Buffet, $2400 for the YAS-62II and $2400 for the Yani A901). P. Mauriat is priced SLIGHTLY lower than the Yamaha and Yani (for the base "pro" models), as is Cannonball, IIRC (they don't post prices online). Makes me wonder how Cannonball and P. Mauriat sells in comparison to the Buffet or Selmer LaVoix/LaVie.

jbtsax

09-04-2009, 04:10 AM

That does not mean that others do not know the sources, however, or how to interchange parts. As demand builds--and it will (economics 101)--this issue becomes a non-issue. Al, with all due respect I have been a full time professional repair tech in Utah's largest music store for 8 years and a NAPBIRT member for 7. I go to every repair conference and network with sax techs from all over the country. I also have access to every repair parts source online and in catalogs. If you know of someone who has information about where to buy specific parts for the generic stencil Taiwanese saxes, please share that information with me.

Could someone describe what parts are in need of replacement?
Octave key assemblies are common as are neck tenon receivers. Key guards, key guard feet, felt bumper screws, back guards, F# to G#/Bb adjusting rods, to name a few. Something as simple as a keyguard screw can be a pain to replace if the thread size does not match the common makes.

It is not just for the school instruments, or for the younger players that we replace a lot of parts. People who buy instruments at pawn shops, garage sales, and on ebay come into our shop all the time to try to get parts that were missing when they bought the instrument. Even pro players get their horns mangled at gigs when someone knocks their stand off the stage and the sax goes flying. Sometimes keys and guards are so badly damaged that there is no way to make them look new again and the player wants the sax returned to like new condition. If a part can't be ordered, one can be custom made, but at a premium price and it still may not match the original finish of the sax.

From the perspective of those of us who repair instruments for a living, repair and replacement parts are essential. If this weren't the case major manufacturers like Yamaha, Selmer, Keilwerth, etc wouldn't go the the trouble and expense to back up their instruments in this fashion. As I see it that is one of the main differences between the brokers who order saxes 20 at a time from an undisclosed factory in Taiwan, and authentic dealers of Taiwanese made saxes like Jupiter, Antiqua Winds, Mauriat, Cannonball, etc. One sells you "a" saxophone. The other sells you a brand with longevity and parts support.

John

clarnibass

09-04-2009, 05:46 AM

First, my point was -- and still is -- IF you needed a part for your horn and needed it immediately, your local repair shop probably has that part in stock for a YAS-23
I think John's post shows pretty clear the difference in areas I was talking about. The parts that for him are common to replace are mostly extremely rare to replace here. The rest of my previous post that you didn't quote explained why some repairers very likely won't have parts for a YAS-23 in stock (because it's very rare to need any parts for them, like in my area).

Second, I cannot recommend to anyone that they get a Taiwanese, Chinese, or Vietnamese-made saxophone -- at this moment. The reason why is because I have not yet seen someone come out and say something like, "This Chinese-made horn is as quality an instrument as a Yamaha! Their quality is consistent, too -- one bad one out of 50 I've tried!" I HAVE seen posts in the form of, "Their quality is improving!" or "They're making great gains!" That's like saying you came in second place ... in a race between two people.
I don't think it's especially a good idea to recommend on not necessarily on what you can read on forums. On forums no matter what you can never really know what the opinion of someone means. It's better to base it on trying it yourself and listen to people who you really know.

So, I have tried a lot of Taiwanese and Chinese saxophones, and I decided I thought several of the Taiwanese are as good as professional saxophones from known companies. So good in fact that I'm considering selling some of them (where before trying them I thought selling instruments is the last I want to do and didn't even consider it).

The better Chinese are also very good. I would recommend them against a student Yamaha for a beginning student because of quality vs. price. The good Chinese wins IMO. Unfortunately there are still many very bad Chinese instruments so it's important to know what is good and what isn't.

Like the problem of the stack rods being loose in their post, the better Taiwanese and Chinese don't have this problem. Actually the better Taiwanese models have accurace of the keys made better than pretty much anything I've seen. OTOH to give the other extreme, I just recently fixed a awful designed linkage on a $6,000 saxophone which caused the low C# to feel like you're a weight lifter. They can improve it, for example, by copying from a Chinese model! :)

John, I've tried sample orders from two Taiwanese companies. One a brand name and the other direct from factory i.e. exactly the two types you are talking about. Both assure me no problem of getting parts. There can always be surprises in the future, but from the service I had so far, I can offer warrenty just the same on both of these "brands".

Al Stevens

09-04-2009, 04:25 PM

Al, with all due respect I have been a full time professional repair tech in Utah's largest music store for 8 years and a NAPBIRT member for 7.
That's about as long as I've been playing the saxophone (second time around), but why are we telling each other this? :???:

If you know of someone who has information about where to buy specific parts for the generic stencil Taiwanese saxes, please share that information with me.Why would I know that? I have a tech who does. Try the factories. If you don't know what factories to try, ask the stencil guys. I suspect that most of them don't do any service and repairs themselves. They'd be happy to know that someone wants to service their brand.

But when demand exceeds supply as I predict, no one will need to ask these questions. The ads will be in the NAPBIRT, or whatever, newsletter.

In the meantime, my tech can repair my horns. Parts are not an issue. He orders them. It's a shrinking globe. Virtually anything is available overnight if you're in a hurry.

One sells you "a" saxophone. The other sells you a brand with longevity and parts support.
And a comprehensive marketing program. And staff. And distributors and dealers in the middle. And necessarily charges more for all that. For the price of a "brand with longevity," I can buy "a" saxophone to play and a second one as backup and for parts. (I didn't do that, though. :grin:)

Longevity? That is an elusive measure. It endures only as long as the market holds up. The market is changing. I would not be surprised (although I would be sad) if the stencil companies drove the so-called longevity companies down the tubes. They can probably see it coming, too, which is why they are applying aggressive business and marketing strategies to preserve and protect market share.

SteveSklar

09-04-2009, 07:10 PM

Could someone describe what parts are in need of replacement?

Over my 50+ years of playing, I recall having to replace one lower keyguard on a curved Yanagisawa soprano when I carelessly bent it........

And that's the big difference between a thoughtful professional and a careless student. Students .. whether they use a school instrument or their own Selmer Paris horn, are stereotypically more careless (and in a group where they're more careless) than with pros.

If we wer to catalog specific repairs and categorize the player, i'm sure most replacement part items would be to the students.

JBT - it's been 8 yrs already ?!?! time flies !!

retread

09-04-2009, 07:56 PM

And that's the big difference between a thoughtful professional and a careless student. Students .. whether they use a school instrument or their own Selmer Paris horn, are stereotypically more careless (and in a group where they're more careless) than with pros.
Yeah. A few years ago I helped out at a music educators conference that involved student competitions. A high school girl was walking the halls twirling her clarinet as though it was a baton.

pete

09-04-2009, 09:20 PM

I don't think it's especially a good idea to recommend on not necessarily on what you can read on forums. On forums no matter what you can never really know what the opinion of someone means. It's better to base it on trying it yourself and listen to people who you really know.
Remember, you're a) posting on a forum and b) I don't know you, thus that means I can discount your opinion, right? :P

At some point, you have to say something like, "I see a LOT of posts from a LOT of people talking about something" and go with that. Additionally, I do know some of the folks that post and I respect their opinions. I haven't seen one of those folks come out and say, "I just went down to the music store and tried a new Barone (for example; no offense to Mr. Barone). It was so good, I'm now selling all my Mark VIs and Inderbinens and telling everyone I meet to buy Barone horns!"

So, I have tried a lot of Taiwanese and Chinese saxophones, and I decided I thought several of the Taiwanese are as good as professional saxophones from known companies. So good in fact that I'm considering selling some of them (where before trying them I thought selling instruments is the last I want to do and didn't even consider it).

The better Chinese are also very good. I would recommend them against a student Yamaha for a beginning student because of quality vs. price. The good Chinese wins IMO. Unfortunately there are still many very bad Chinese instruments so it's important to know what is good and what isn't.And I note that you don't mention a brand name for a "good horn" :).

I'm fully willing to accept that, say, a Buffet 400 is a "better choice" -- new, that is -- than a Yamaha 23 because of the price-point. However, there's not that much difference in price. And the Buffet 400 is supposed to be "pro".

OTOH to give the other extreme, I just recently fixed a awful designed linkage on a $6,000 saxophone which caused the low C# to feel like you're a weight lifter. They can improve it, for example, by copying from a Chinese model! :) There are sometimes reasons they don't: patents.

As a side note, the Mark VI patents should all have expired by now. Maybe one of those Chinese/Taiwanese companies could just ... make a good copy.

Al Stevens

09-04-2009, 09:47 PM

As a side note, the Mark VI patents should all have expired by now. Maybe one of those Chinese/Taiwanese companies could just ... make a good copy.

Yep. Patents expire after 14 or 20 years depending on whether the patent is a utility patent or a design patent.

clarnibass

09-05-2009, 06:18 AM

Remember, you're a) posting on a forum and b) I don't know you, thus that means I can discount your opinion, right? :P
You can, it's your choice. I wrote "really know" and by that I meant you know them enough to know how to take their opinion. For repairers, it could be seeing how they explain about technical/mechanical ideas (although it's still not 100% way to know). For players, it could be from listening to them (if they have clips) and being able to understand their level from that, etc. Or maybe you can actually meet them or you already know them before, etc.

Sorry if this is up front, but I remember more than a few times (not on this forum) that a respected member had a clip and I completely changed my opinion about them after listening to it. Luckily the opposite also happened, and listening to a clip strengthened my trust in someone. Sometimes it's a certain attitude as opposed to content that makes someone respected on a forum, and develops some sort of "clique" of that, while the reality might be very different.

Though IMO this forum is one of the few forums usually without those problems :)

At some point, you have to say something like, "I see a LOT of posts from a LOT of people talking about something" and go with that. Additionally, I do know some of the folks that post and I respect their opinions.
OK. But are you developing an opinion based on what these people write on the forums? Personally I heard a lot of good reviews about the Taiwanese saxophones from people I respect, but I avoided commenting on them until I actually got to try many of them and see/hear for myself.

And I note that you don't mention a brand name for a "good horn" :).
Like I said, I'm considering selling them. Since I will only sell locally to people who come to try them, and not online or by mail, I prefer not to mention the brands on forums like this one (unless I have to as disclaimer, but I'd probably not comment about those brands anyway since I'll be biased). Especially now that I haven't decided if I do this or not yet (my sales skills are pretty awful, so I don't know if I'll be able to sell, that is, I'm better at convincing people they don't need to buy something... :)).

I'm fully willing to accept that, say, a Buffet 400 is a "better choice" -- new, that is -- than a Yamaha 23 because of the price-point. However, there's not that much difference in price. And the Buffet 400 is supposed to be "pro".
Have you tried a Buffet 400? I tried them. They are Chinese. Compared with many other Chinese saxophones I tried along with the Buffet 400s (a lot of which are significantly cheaper than the Buffets) I thought the Buffets were between average and the the bottom (especially the baritone). So the Buffet happens to be one of the models I wouldn't recommend over a student Yamaha. A student won't have a serious problem with a Buffet 400, but I'm not sure why bother when just as good (or maybe better) model can cost less.

There are sometimes reasons they don't: patents.
This isn't the reason in this case. The basic idea is still the same. The linkage is good on Japanese models, and most European, Taiwanese and Chinese models (the last two usually copied from Japanese or European). Even another very expensive company from the same country had a good design. It's just a very small and specific problem in a shape of one part that causes this completley awful feel to the key, and the pad just barely closes (make the spring lighter and the pad won't close unless modifying the linkage).

clarnibass

09-05-2009, 07:04 AM

One sells you "a" saxophone. The other sells you a brand with longevity and parts support.And a comprehensive marketing program. And staff. And distributors and dealers in the middle. And necessarily charges more for all that. For the price of a "brand with longevity," I can buy "a" saxophone to play and a second one as backup and for parts. (I didn't do that, though. :grin:)
IME it's not exactly like that. This is based on playing lot of different Taiwanese saxophones, and also dealing with both types of companies. I have ordered from a Taiwanese brand name company, and also direct from a factory, and thoroughly compare them. The latter is of course less expensive. But there are several differences, and price is just one of them. I'm not talking about longevity which isn't important to most people if they like the saxophone. Parts is not really important IMO but both companies can get me parts just the same.

The difference come from the brand name simply being a better saxophone. Not necessarily from adjustment condition, which direct from factory can be just as good. My impression is the brand name company, being Taiwanese also, is (as I think you say in English) "on top of things" in Taiwan. They have enough "power" to have the best instruments made, specific parts they want, what to get, etc. etc.

In theory, I could probably (eventually) get saxophones direct from a factory and get to the level of the brand name company. But I'd have to make a very big investment. Actually, I'd have to sell the saxophones at a higher price than what I can sell the brand name company now. Only if I sold globally a huge amount I could afford that, which would make it a brand name with distributers and dealers, etc.

BTW I just checked the prices of several Taiwanese saxophones. I checked the best models from the companies (the most equivilent ones I could find). The "generic" ones are not really half price from the name brand distributed ones. The least expensive I found was about 60%-65% of the "name". Others are more around 70%-80%. When it gets into the "new" finishes or materials, it can be even closer, sometimes almost the same.

jbtsax

09-05-2009, 07:39 AM

Why would I know that? I have a tech who does. Try the factories. If you don't know what factories to try, ask the stencil guys. I suspect that most of them don't do any service and repairs themselves. They'd be happy to know that someone wants to service their brand. With all due respect Al. The factories do not sell parts to individuals whether they are in the repair trade or not. They are not set up to do that.
But when demand exceeds supply as I predict, no one will need to ask these questions. The ads will be in the NAPBIRT, or whatever, newsletter.
???
In the meantime, my tech can repair my horns. Parts are not an issue. He orders them. It's a shrinking globe. Virtually anything is available overnight if you're in a hurry.
If you are referring to your Barone horn, I am asking you again to find out from him where he orders parts for "Barone" horns if that is the case and to pass that information on to me to share with the rest of the repair community. I assure you we all will be very grateful.

For the price of a "brand with longevity," I can buy "a" saxophone to play and a second one as backup and for parts. (I didn't do that, though. :grin:) Now you are making sense about how to get replacement parts for your "generic" Taiwan saxophone. :) I won't insult you by pointing out it just doubled in cost.

John

Al Stevens

09-05-2009, 04:32 PM

With all due respect Al. The factories do not sell parts to individuals whether they are in the repair trade or not. They are not set up to do that.
As I said, talk to the stencil guy. If you are going to service his products, a service he apparently needs, surely he'll arrange for you to get parts.

If you are referring to your Barone horn, I am asking you again to find out from him where he orders parts for "Barone" horns if that is the case and to pass that information on to me to share with the rest of the repair community. I assure you we all will be very grateful.
None of the several Barones purchased around here have had that kind of breakdown. Good build quality and all that. My tech, however, after setting up my tenor and alto assured me that parts are no problem. (PM parts fit my PB tenor, for example.) He's a member of the repair community. He's been at it in his own store for at least 20 years. Next time I see him I'll ask him for more specifics.
Now you are making sense about how to get replacement parts for your "generic" Taiwan saxophone. :) I won't insult you by pointing out it just doubled in cost.
All a matter of perspective and agenda. Think of it more like two for the price of one.

tictactux

11-26-2009, 12:15 AM

The thing is - any brand name that Mrs and Mr Doe *might* have heard of sells better than whatever off-brand instrument (of same or even better quality) might yield. I don't say it's good, but it appears to happen. (I can sell a used Yamaha flute better than a Bundy even if my flutist bandmate says that the Bundy plays easier with a comparable sound)
And if the Doe family doesn't have a say, then the teacher does, and the average instructor doesn't know all those brands but probably just remembers the long-life names that have been there since dawn of mankind.
Third, repair people often seem to shy away from DIY replacements. They call the importer, the importer has a price list, the price is quoted to the customer. No time to lose with a student instrument, too little margin, too little time, too many more important customers.

*shrug*

Okay, this image has come out bleaker than planned. Maybe truth isn't all that grim...I don't know, this is just what I witness around me.

Jacques5646

11-26-2009, 09:34 AM

> ...
The Yamaha 275 and newer horns do have Selmer-BA-like keywork. The 23 doesn't. What I'm referring to more is alternate keywork, especially the articulated G# and/or G# cluster layout. I'd really prefer students to play a Yamaha 32/34/475/52/575 because they do have the Selmer-style keywork, but these are much more expensive, even used.

Sorry to unearth this interesting post and to very gently hijack the thread for a few seconds: could anybody give us the equivalence chart (if any) between Yam 23, 32, etc. and 475, 575, etc.
My son's alto is a 475 and I've been wondering for long if it was the equivalent to, e.g., a 475.

Thanks in advance

J

tictactux

11-26-2009, 10:39 AM

My son's alto is a 475 and I've been wondering for long if it was the equivalent to, e.g., a 475.
I think we can safely assume this to be the case. :mrgreen:

Carl H.

11-26-2009, 04:04 PM

My son's alto is a 475 and I've been wondering for long if it was the equivalent to, e.g., a 475.

I think we can safely assume this to be the case. :mrgreen:

I think you'se guys is odd.;-)

steen

11-26-2009, 05:21 PM

As a side note, the Mark VI patents should all have expired by now. Maybe one of those Chinese/Taiwanese companies could just ... make a good copy.
In their own view, Berkeley has:
http://usahorn.com/new/RS-Berkeley/988/Virtuoso-Professional-Tenor-Saxophone-Lacquer.html
I have not seen or tried one, but Nefertite on SOTW thinks they are great.

pete

11-30-2009, 06:00 AM

In their own view, Berkeley has:
http://usahorn.com/new/RS-Berkeley/988/Virtuoso-Professional-Tenor-Saxophone-Lacquer.html
I have not seen or tried one, but Nefertite on SOTW thinks they are great.
That's an interesting looking horn because it does look an awful lot like a VI, even the neck. But there are definite differences, the most obvious being that the front altissimo F isn't a pearl, but a teardrop (not necessarily a bad thing) and the bell-to-body brace is completely different.

I haven't done a piece-by-piece comparison, but it's intriguing.

However, I used to play several different Yanagisawa-made Vitos from the 1960's (the jury's out on whether they were B6 or B600 models) and the only visual difference between these horns and the Mark VI, other than the engraving, was the bell-to-body brace, which was a noticeably larger circle. Playing wise, though, they were absolute junk -- which was probably due to the bore.

pete

11-30-2009, 06:09 AM

Sorry to unearth this interesting post and to very gently hijack the thread for a few seconds: could anybody give us the equivalence chart (if any) between Yam 23, 32, etc. and 475, 575, etc.
My son's alto is a 475 and I've been wondering for long if it was the equivalent to, e.g., a 475.

Thanks in advance

J
While the 475 is obviously the equivalent of a 475, let's do the other horns:

* 23: Base model student.
* 32: Intermediate model. Replacement for the 52, depending on the pitch and market. No real difference between the 32 and 52.
* 475: Intermediate model. Replacement for the 52, depending on the pitch and market. The 475 has different lacquer and an "improved" neck than the 52.
* 575: Intermediate model. A 475 with a 62II neck. It's an "Allegro" model that you'll probably not find outside the educational market.

I write about all of the current Yamahas at http://www.thesax.info/mediawiki-1.10.0/index.php?title=Yamaha

Phil Barone

02-03-2011, 03:42 AM

I realize I’m jumping in a bit late but I still want to rectify the situation. I don't know why people like to spread rumors when they have absolutely no knowledge of other people's business but wars have started over less.

Parts are readily available for all of my saxophones if they should be needed which I doubt. In fact, I keep necks in stock if someone should lose one which happens with bari necks but much less common with the others. Need a part just call me and a couple of weeks later you'll have it in the mail, period, end of story. Phil Barone

That does not mean that others do not know the sources, however, or how to interchange parts. As demand builds--and it will (economics 101)--this issue becomes a non-issue.

Also, when a good saxophone is cheaper than a repad job, the saxophone becomes a disposable commodity. Don't fix it. Replace it.

I realize that the Taiwanese instrument stencils who pay to establish high advertising profiles and have higher prices to cover their overheads don't want any of this to be true, but, oh, well...

The influx of affordable Asian saxophones is like a drum solo. You can tell it's coming, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Not my title even though the thread is attributed to me.

Gandalfe

02-03-2011, 07:14 PM

Phil Barone

02-03-2011, 10:22 PM

Really, the end of the story Phil. (BTW welcome to WF.) I'm still fascinated by the cost of a new instrument being less than an overhaul of an instrument. That truely defines a disposible commodity.

I hear ya and I'm not so sure I like it myself but I considered putting my prices on par with Cannonball and Mauriat but at the end of the day selling the same quality horns to people that otherwise could not afford them and with a great case, mouthpiece and neck, won out. Of course I can't sell to resellers but that's my loss. Thanks for welcoming me.

Phil Barone

pete

02-04-2011, 01:36 AM

My job is to end wars.

Anyhow, Phil, you appear to be responding to a much earlier post from JBT. I think he has a valid concern: while you might be able to get parts for your model saxophones, other folks -- at least, JBT -- expresses some difficulty.

From an end-user perspective, if I buy, say, a Selmer, and need a warranty repair, I can get parts at lots a dealerships -- because lots a folks are Selmer dealers. Sounds like I'd have to ship my horn back to you, if I have problems with your horn, because I can't get parts any other way. When my horn gets OFF warranty and I need parts, where can I go?

At least, I believe that's what JBT's point was ....

Phil Barone

02-04-2011, 03:22 AM

Sounds like a good job. You don't mean as a moderator do you? I don't know why you think you'd need to send the horn back to me, why is that? At any rate anyone that has a computer can just put my name into any search engine and find my website very easily and I'm not going any where and if I do someone else will be taking over. That's already been arranged.

For the time being it's very easy to get parts. I have a large poster with a blowup of the horns and all the parts are numbered so all I have to do is narrow the number down and it's done. Very simple.

JBT also seems to think that all the horns are just stamped with different names so there must be numerous sources of parts if this is the case, no? But the bottom line is that it's very unusual that anyone needs a part. I used to do repairs and I don't remember ever needing a part except for pads, springs and the usual stuff to overhaul a sax. Anything else we were able to make in house but we had a lathe and a CNC milling machine and I knew how to use them. I can make any piece that I can't buy and I will if I have to too so everyone can rest easy. Phil Barone

My job is to end wars.

Anyhow, Phil, you appear to be responding to a much earlier post from JBT. I think he has a valid concern: while you might be able to get parts for your model saxophones, other folks -- at least, JBT -- expresses some difficulty.

From an end-user perspective, if I buy, say, a Selmer, and need a warranty repair, I can get parts at lots a dealerships -- because lots a folks are Selmer dealers. Sounds like I'd have to ship my horn back to you, if I have problems with your horn, because I can't get parts any other way. When my horn gets OFF warranty and I need parts, where can I go?

At least, I believe that's what JBT's point was ....

pete

02-04-2011, 07:48 PM

Nobel Laureate, dude. Just remember how Nobel got all his cash.

While I do agree with you that you can get some parts wherever, that doesn't help me for warranty work -- unless your warranty says that repairs can be made anywhere and you'll reimburse the horn's owner. You or your alternate are the single point of contact.

In any event, I was just trying to illuminate JBT's point. I still think it's a good one. However, I think it's a fairly minimal point.

I've bought several brand spankin' new instruments. The only adjustment I ever needed to do was to put the pearls back on my YBS-52 -- they fell off in transit from the store in Buffalo, NY to my college address. Other than that, I've had no need of a warranty. I take care of my horns, though. Especially for a newish make/model, I'd want to have a warranty that covers defects in design or poor quality. It's just to give me a good feeling, if nothing else. Hey, it's nice to know that if I have a problem with my iPad, I can go to the nearest Apple Store, rather than having to send it back to the dealer or Apple.

Note that in no way am I saying anything about the quality of your instruments, Phil. I'm just saying that if I have to contact you for everything, you're my single point of fail. That's something to consider if you're not buying a "big name" horn, particularly if you're a beginner.

jbtsax

02-05-2011, 04:40 AM

I don't have time for a full response to this tread, but as a professional repair tech who works on saxophones, I know from first hand experience that there are parts that are commonly needed on all brands. This is not just for student players, but for adult and skilled players as well. Some of commonly needed parts include: (in approximate order of frequency)

- pivot screws
- guard screws
- neck screws
- guard feet
- fork F# key guard
- lower stack key guard
- key guard bumper adjusting screws
- octave mechanism parts
- body neck tenon receiver
- individual keys too damaged to repair

Yamaha, Selmer, Yanagisawa, Jupiter, Mauriat, Cannonball, etc. all provide a catalog or website where professional techs can order at least the first six on the list to have in stock when that make and model come in for repair.

If replacement parts weren't important or needed as some people claim then the major brands wouldn't go to the trouble to maintain an inventory that can be shipped the day a tech calls in his order, and received in 2 to 3 business days. This is not only true for saxophones, but all of the other woodwinds and brass as well. It is part of the standard industry practice and has been for many years, that is until the wave of Asian instruments began to hit our shores.

I know the well worn argument that "a competent repair tech can make whatever part is needed". That is absolutely true, but I wouldn't want to pay a tech's $60 per hour shop rate to make a pivot screw, when for another brand he could just go to a drawer, pull one out and charge maybe twice his $1.00 wholesale cost to cover his time and the cost of keeping some on hand. I can go to the junk pile and find a key guard that can be manipulated to fit on a nice looking saxophone, but it costs more than the correct new one because of the time it took to modify it and it looks like s**t to boot. I tell the unhappy customer, it is at least functional, and I'm sorry but this brand doesn't care enough to make parts available after the sale.

I would like to see the cut rate vendors of off shore saxophones add a page to their fancy websites giving the price of the above commonly needed parts IN ALL AVAILABLE FINISHES and information on how to order them. They could order these parts in sufficient quantities to meet expected demand from the factory that makes their saxophones each time an order is placed.

Sure it would add a small amount to their business overhead, but in terms of customer relations and customer service it would pay dividends---especially when they advertise "We care enough about service after the sale to back up our instruments with repair parts".
Besides, the cost could be added to the purchase price or absorbed by the vendor in their profit margin. Either way it would be an improvement over the status quo where the customers of their brands are on their own where commonly needed parts are concerned.

I just get tired of the "spin" and tap dancing around the subject by those vendors who claim to back up their instruments with parts, but in reality do not and have no intention of doing so.

It's a good thing I didn't have time to write what I really think about this topic. :)

SOTSDO

02-05-2011, 08:36 AM

I think that this "no parts" policy has evolved over the years.

In the good old days, much of the horn was made by the manufacturer. Thus, Selmer started out producing everything save the case. Sheet brass and steel rod from the jobber were converted into the finished horn with some laquer and engraving steels.

Then, some parts started getting outsourced. Standardized stuff like pads and pivot screws and the like could more conveniently be produced by machinery and specialized employees working for someone else.

Then came stenciling - complete horns purchased from a horn manufacturer, a new name applied, and the end product shipped out as "our horn". Not exactly traditional craftsmanship, but still the guys producing the horns were as much artisans as were the Selmer boys back in the day. They just worked for less.

But, we are one step beyond this now. Production has shipped from formerly cheap but now precision Japan to formerly cheap but now almost as precision Taiwan and Korea, to formerly cheap (and still cheap, in my opinion from what I have seen) mainland China. Not a good thing, at least in my eyes.

Chinese production of everything is always a "low bid" proposition. A firm that does "a good job" on a Chinese saxophone may flip completely in the time that it takes to empty a box of screws, and let production on the next series out to the low bidder. And, that low bidder may not feel the same way about the metal in the screws when it is time to order another box.

I have seen Chinese copies of American firearms that (from outward appearances) are identical to Colt automatic pistols, Browning automatic rifles, and several models of Thompson submachine guns. Then you open them up, strip the bolt or barrels out, and find out that none of the parts are interchangeable, a touchstone of Western production for the last hundred and seventy five years, and that the interior is a poorly milled and finished mess.

Hell, I've even seen a Chinese produced mud pump (on an oil rig) that had a dummy safety valve - made that way and shipped from the factory. You just can not tell what they're going to skimp on next.

It's the very nature of Chinese production. It may change in the future, just as Japanese production has moved from tinny little cars to luxury models that hold up to the best that we can produce. But, my money's not on the Chinese Communists any time soon

pete

02-05-2011, 07:19 PM

I'm seriously considering the Korean Hyundai Genesis when I buy my next car in a couple years. It has won tons of awards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Genesis#Awards) and is considered one of the most comfortable luxury cars. It's inexpensive as a new car and will be even more so as used. Heck, both my Taurus and Mustang convertible hovered around the same price ($30K), new.

Korean cars went from junk to really good in about 10 years.

SOTSDO

02-10-2011, 08:48 PM

I've been stuck with both Hyndais and Kias as long term rentals when working over in N'Awlins for month long details. Neither was their top of the line model, but both were as bad as Chrysler junk, particularly when dealing with the less than optimal roads in the Crescent City.

Unless they've improved massively in the last two years, I wouldn't even bother to look at them.

Oh, and most automotive awards are industry-based feel good stuff. JD Powers is quite capable of being wrong when money issues are concerned.

pete

02-11-2011, 04:30 AM

Now, now. You're gonna get the Hemi owners mad.

(How to annoy a Chrysler owner whose vehicle has a "Hemi": tell him "hemi" means "half," so he's got half a good engine. I keed, I keed. Hey, I owned a Cordoba with the "soft Corinthian leather." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIL3fbGbU2o) I'll regal y'all with stories about the K-car I "owned" at some other time.)

*Ahem*. Yes, I've had friends with older Hyundais and they weren't impressed, even though the cars have 10-year warranties. However, that was several years ago. I don't doubt that they've improved. Hey, their cars now look an awful lot nicer (http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle-lineup/), too.

SOTSDO

02-11-2011, 06:40 AM

We have a car with a hemi engine (the term refers to the format of the cylinder heads - they are hemispherical in shape instead of "flat" as was traditional in the old days), specifically a smart Passion coupe. It infuriates Chrysler owners when the topic comes up.

Having worked for nigh on forty years with the Federal government, I was treated to government cars purchased from whichever manufacturer was going broke at the time they were purchased. American Motors junk, Chrysler (specifically, our exploding (literally, the heating system blew up on two of them) Dodge Omni) junk, Ford junk (although my Pinto sedan was a nifty little car, exploding gas tank or not), General Motors junk - they almost all were worthless.

There were exceptions:

I had a Jeep CJ convertible for six months - that was pretty neat. I stripped off the hard roof installed by Uncle and the doors, put all of my equipment in a big locked case in the back end, and off roaded to oil rigs for a whole three months.

There was the Pinto mentioned above.

There was the twenty-four passenger school bus that was all that they had at the motor pool as a loaner one time for two weeks - I drove the whole office out to dinner in that.

And, I had a huge yellow Dodge Ram pickup for two years that was just great.

But, for every one of those, there were at least two 1968 Ford Galaxy sedans that were just dreadful.