Bundy?

[UTEP Horn Guy]

Hi all,

Are these student horns worth getting? What are the pros/ cons?

[SteveSklar]

Pros: They are durable, tend to last a long time, cheap to get & maintain, etc

cons .. they are student instruments. The same difference between your Custom Pro Getzen and a base no-frills small bore student trombone & cheapo mpc.

[UTEP Horn Guy]

would you (or anyone) recommend a better student horn? Or are Bundy(s) worth their money?

[tictactux]

would you (or anyone) recommend a better student horn? Or are Bundy(s) worth their money?

You can't do much wrong with a Bundy, or a Vito, for that matter. Better invest the saved money into a decent mouthpiece and a couple lessons.

[jbtsax]

The main drawback for the Bundy student saxophones is the position and feel of the keys. For a player with any degree of technical skill they feel awkward and "clunky". The scale is good and as someone else mentioned they are built like a tank. For a used student saxophone that plays well and has the feel of a more expensive instrument the Yamaha YAS 23 can't be beat. The older Vitos made in Japan are essentially the same saxophone, but they are getting harder to find. A used Yamaha YAS 23 in excellent condition can be picked up for around $500 - $600.

If money is no object, the Cannonball Alcazar is an incredible student model horn which retails around $1200---about $600 less than the cost of a new Yamaha YAS 23. http://www.cannonballmusic.com/alcazar.php

John

[pete]

The other problem with a Bundy (made in USA) is that they stopped making them, oh, 20 years ago. Or more. They made the Selmer USA 100-series for awhile and then moved all student-model production to Taiwan, under names like Buescher (again) and LaVoix.

The Bundys stamped "Made in Germany" are Keilwerth New King stencils and are extremely nice horns, not student-quality at all. However, they're fairly old.

Elaborating on TTT's comment, the Vito was built in USA, France, Japan and Taiwan. The Vitos that are desirable are the ones made in France (you probably won't find one; these are rather old) and Japan (Yamaha stencils). The USA-made ones are very old and low quality. The ones made in Taiwan are Jupiter stencils and aren't much to write home about.

Mentioning John's comment, even student models are expensive. I wouldn't buy one. If you have to have a student model, see if you can find a used, overhauled, warrantied horn (see the below paragraph).

If you're looking into student horns, you should check out our Beginners section at http://woodwindforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=385

[SOTSDO]

The best route to take for student clarinets is to stay with Yamaha horns. For the money, they are the best selection, hands down. Well built, reasonalby in tune (at least the examples that I have seen), and close enough to a "real" clarinet that stepping up in the future would not present huge difficulties in accommodating the difference.

The only time that I would seek out a Vito would be for someone with extremely small fingerbones, or for someone making the first time leap from saxophone. In those two limited cases, the small tone hole chimneys on the Vitos produced in the United States by the Leblanc folks are an excellent choice. You would start such a student on the Vito, and then, once their finger placements were solid, transition them to a better horn (with fewer intonation issues).

One of the best, free-blowing clarinets that I ever had was a Vito, purchased for all of $25.00 at a rummage shop. The instrument was responsive from top to bottom, and was especially free blowing at the top end of the range. I sold it to a sax player wanting to start on clarinet, that for the same $25.00 price point.

Hopefully, none of the above will jeopardize my lifetime membership in the Selmer Clarinets Forever fan club...

[Dave Dolson]

UTEP: Two years ago, I was looking for an inexpensive alto saxophone for my then 11-year old grandson. I play tested several different new brands and models at Kessler Music in Las Vegas. Included was a Yamaha 62 (allegedly several steps above the 23). I have played a few 23's and walked away with mixed results - solid horn, very bright tone.

I ended up buying one of Dave Kessler's house-brand altos (Kessler Custom), which I believe is Taiwanese, but I'm not sure. At any rate, the horn played better than anything else that day and was inexpensive. He still plays the horn, is developing nicely, and is still happy with it, as are his instructors.

Price? I recall it was in the $700 range when I bought it. You can always go to Kessler's web-site or call the store and talk to Dave. He ships. DAVE

[Tammi]

I have no compaints about my old Bundy alto.
I actually prefer it's feel and sound to the Yamaha.
Must be it's just what I'm used to.
I have been known to make mistakes...

[UTEP Horn Guy]

Very interesting. So the general agreement is that a Bundy would be a good choice for a beginner student since it's built to take a beating, plays fairly decent, and is easy on the wallet.

[Dave Dolson]

I don't agree. As far as I know, the Bundys that I know are no longer made - and if they are, they are probably no different from the myriad of inexpensive Chinese/Taiwanese/Vietnamese saxophones out there bearing a house brand. And if they are still being made (meaning, imported from Asia with the Bundy name on them) the mere presence of the Bundy name is no guarantee that they will be even close to the original Bundy horns as described here. Witness the horrible examples of cheap Asian horns bearing the revered name of Buescher.

I get the impression you have your eyes on a particular Bundy OR already have one. If that is the case, enjoy it. But if you are going out seeking one (having yet to find one), then I for one would rather have one of Kessler's saxophones. At least I trust the Kesslers to set up their products and trust that they work closely with their suppliers to obtain the best worksmanship and features available from the numerous Asian suppliers. A Bundy would be far down my preferred list of student saxophones, given that Yamaha 23's and some pretty neat Taiwanese models are readily available. DAVE

[UTEP Horn Guy]

I'm actually looking into getting a simple, yet decent alto sax for myself. Keep in mind I'm a trombone player and I'll be graduating soon, so I don't intend on spending too much time or money on this horn. I do however would like to get something new (I've had one too many bad experiences with used horns). I was flipping some pages in a WWBW magazine and saw a Bundy for $700. I saw the Y23s as well, but they're about $1700. So I was looking for a plan B.

[Gandalfe]

I'd recommend one of these at http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/clarinet/clarinets.htm

[Carl H.]

I'd recommend one of these at http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/clarinet/clarinets.htm
I'd go to http://www.kesslermusic.com/ and contact them about their recommended student saxes. Their clarinets make lousy saxes!:twisted:

[SOTSDO]

Yup, like cars musical instruments depreciate somewhat when first purchased. No need to pay for a "new" student horn when you can get a perfectly wonderful used and reconditioned horn for much, much less.

[Gandalfe]

I'd go to http://www.kesslermusic.com/ and contact them about their recommended student saxes. Their clarinets make lousy saxes!:twisted:Oops, thinking of another thread I guess. Sorry for the noise.

[Carl H.]

Oops, thinking of another thread I guess. Sorry for the noise.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.;-)

[clarnibass]

The problem with Bundy is that there are many Bundys.

I don't think I have experience with the original older Bundy saxophones.

I have experience with Bundy II saxophones. IMO they are pretty awful. Yes they play in tune but they have so many mechanical problems that I just don't think they are good at all. I also don't like their tone comapred with most other student saxophones.

The current new Bundy is AFAIK Chinese made and sold by WW&BW.

I'd definitely prefer a lot of Taiwanese saxophones and some Chinese saxophones over an old Bundy II.

I also like the Yamaha student model that John recommended. The YAS-23 (and YTS-23 too) are very good and have good tone, intonation and feel. But now with the improvements from Chinese and Taiwanese saxophones it's getting harder to recommend it. These student models from Yamaha have some mechanical problems that make them now less of a good option as in the past when they didn't have much competition. Though I have no experience with newer student Yamahas made in China, but was told they still have the problems.

I just saw a Vito Japan made by Yamaha (I still have it here actually). This one was made in the 90s. It has a weird problem of the bell key arms (especially low Bb) being too short. I know this is original from the factory. I don't remember ever seeing that on a real YAS model. I would want to see more examples to find it was just a rare problem before I would recommend this model.

[pete]

Two YAS23's are at https://www.junkdude.com/ProductGroup.aspx?group=saxophones&id_prodcat=187 for $625, each.

If Junkdude (Dave) says it's in good shape, it's in good shape. Buy it. Don't get a Bundy II.

[geauxsax]

I have experience with Bundy II saxophones. IMO they are pretty awful. Yes they play in tune but they have so many mechanical problems that I just don't think they are good at all. I also don't like their tone comapred with most other student saxophones.


My Bundy II sounds pretty decent IMHO, is mouthpiece friendly, and has great intonation. No, it's not the end-all, beat all, and the Kessler is probably the better bet for several reasons, but concerning the Bundy II:

Don't they have a True Tone body tube essentially? If so, why wouldn't they sound OK? Yes--the keywork is different, in what I guess was an attempt to improve things (??). I found a post on another site, purportedly from Ralph Morgan concerning, and discussed it here:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=99925&highlight=bundy+morgan

[clarnibass]

My Bundy II sounds pretty decent IMHO, is mouthpiece friendly, and has great intonation. No, it's not the end-all, beat all, and the Kessler is probably the better bet for several reasons, but concerning the Bundy II:

Don't they have a True Tone body tube essentially? If so, why wouldn't they sound OK? Yes--the keywork is different, in what I guess was an attempt to improve things (??). I found a post on another site, purportedly from Ralph Morgan concerning, and discussed it here:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=99925&highlight=bundy+morgan
My problem with the Bundy II is not its tone, but it's mechanics. Every one I've ever seen just had too many mechanical problems comapred with Yamaha student models and the new decent Asian models. The tone is a different subject and very subjective. I wouldn't say the Bundy II has a bad tone but I don't like it compared with the other saxes I mentioned. As far as being the same as the Buescher, it's possible I have no idea. I've never played a True Tone alto, only tenors, and I don't remember what I thought of it. I never compared it next to a Bundy to say if they are similar or not. But if they are the same, then I guess it's very possible that I won't like the tone of a True Tone alto.

[Tammi]

For those of us who are 40+,
If you can remember that far back, Bundy was our Yamaha.
I wonder if old players back then had this same discussion...

[Dave Dolson]

Nitai: You deserve to play a real TrueTone alto from the 1920's. Of the seven altos I currently have in my closet, my TT (with the button G#, meaning it is OLD) has the best tone, at least to my ears. DAVE

[SOTSDO]

I seem to recall that Bundy clarinets, at least back when I worried about such things with students, were handicapped with a "molded" bore, as opposed to the reamed to dimension bore of the otherwise similar Vito horns from Leblanc. But, that was all a long time ago (1980's or so).

[pete]

My Bundy II sounds pretty decent IMHO, is mouthpiece friendly, and has great intonation. No, it's not the end-all, beat all, and the Kessler is probably the better bet for several reasons, but concerning the Bundy II:

Don't they have a True Tone body tube essentially? If so, why wouldn't they sound OK? Yes--the keywork is different, in what I guess was an attempt to improve things (??). I found a post on another site, purportedly from Ralph Morgan concerning, and discussed it here:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=99925&highlight=bundy+morgan
(BTB, your Morgan quote is from http://www.saxquest.com/forumThreadView.asp?ForumUID=12&ThreadUID=10405)

I was under the impression, like the other posters in that thread you mention, that the Bundy II is an (d)evolution of the Buescher Aristocrat, not the True Tone. Indeed, there are a lot more points of comparison with the Aristocrat than the True Tone.

Rascher didn't play a TT. He played a New Aristocrat, in the sn 267xxx range (http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/buescher/aristocrat_series/new_aristocrat/alto/silver/267xxx-vs/), according to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=180106&postcount=9 and http://forum.saxontheweb.net/archive/index.php/t-4117.html. However, if you look at this Buescher promo video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXTIYaCwQAM&feature=related) and fast-forward to 4:21, you'll see Rascher's playing a horn with the traditional behind-the-bell keys of the 400.

Rascher was a promoter of Buescher's horns. I see no reason to say that he "had" to play one over another. Indeed, most of the still pictures I've seen of him are with a split-bell-key horn, which the New Aristocrat and True Tone both are, but I'm fairly positive he played ... whatever he wanted from Buescher. Except for the contrabass: Buescher didn't make 'em. The pictures I've seen of the contras Rascher played suggest Evette-Schaeffer.

If you want to stretch it, the New Aristocrat is an evolution of the True Tone design, and then it evolved through at least 6 Aristocrat designs before becoming the Aristocrat 200, which is identical to the original Selmer Bundy (except in engraving), which then became the Bundy II.

In any event, the Bundy II is a good horn because it could be run over with a tank and still play fairly well in tune. And hitting it with a tank might make the keywork more comfortable to play. The Bundy II is outclassed by the Yamaha 23 in every way, EXCEPT in ruggedness.

Again, the Bundys stamped "Made in Germany" are a completely different animal and are made by Keilwerth. Bundys made prior to about 1967 or so are Conn or Buescher stencils.

Selmer history from Ralph Morgan. (http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Selmer.html)

I've spoken, a long while ago, with Mr. Morgan. Nice guy, but I think some of the details of specific saxophones might have been a little off. Unfortunately, he passed away in 2007, so we really can't clarify things.

In any event, even if the Bundy II was based on the Selmer Mark VI, it doesn't play anywhere near as good. It is what it is: an inexpensive student horn that's built to take a beating. It's no longer produced, but you can still buy used ones. I, however, would recommend the YAS-23 for beginners, particularly because you can get them inexpensively, used. The Kessler Custom alto is currently priced at $700 and people have said they're decent horns (specifically the Customs). If I had to get new, I might take a chance on it -- but I know folks that'd sell me a YAS-23 a lot cheaper :).

[pete]

The current new Bundy is AFAIK Chinese made and sold by WW&BW.
We have a winner: http://www.wwbw.com/Bundy-BAS-300-Student-Alto-Saxophone-463681-i1411696.wwbw

These horns have NO relation to any previous Bundy saxophone. They're not even available yet: December 30.

[geauxsax]

In any event, even if the Bundy II was based on the Selmer Mark VI, it doesn't play anywhere near as good. It is what it is: an inexpensive student horn that's built to take a beating. It's no longer produced, but you can still buy used ones. I, however, would recommend the YAS-23 for beginners, particularly because you can get them inexpensively, used. The Kessler Custom alto is currently priced at $700 and people have said they're decent horns (specifically the Customs). If I had to get new, I might take a chance on it -- but I know folks that'd sell me a YAS-23 a lot cheaper :).


I don't dispute any of this, Pete. I'll say it again--the Kessler, etc is probably thge better bet here. You're absolutely right about the Bundy being an inexpensive student horn built to take a beating. Another good point made by more than one is that they're not made new anymore anyway.

My only counterpoint about Bundy IIs is that the examples folks usually see are usually beat to hell, badly adjusted, and/or played with crappy mouthpieces, chipped reeds, etc (if by a novice). A well-adjusted model with a good mouthpiece plays fine, both with regards to tone, intonation, and mechanics. Bottom line, I still think they're better than they get credit for if given a fair chance.

[pete]

When I started playing sax, I was given a beat-up Buescher 400 bari (just about Selmer take-over vintage) and it was "recommended" to me that I get an alto in better shape to take to lessons, etc. I happened to be friends with a local dealer and asked him if he had any student horns in stock that were exceptionally cheap: he had a demo model Bundy II alto that had been smacked into a stand, so the bell lip had a dent. That was it. I think I paid something like $250 for it. Mid-1980s, so it was probably old stock.

So, my first alto was a Bundy II. (Thankfully, the school then replaced the Buescher bari with a NEW Bundy and I then bought my Keilwerth Bundy and, eventually, a YBS-52.)

Since then, I have played a number of Buescher Aristocrat 200s, Bundy, Bundy II, and Selmer USA student horns in a variety of pitches. I liked the fact that they could take a beating. I thought that they were a bit resistant and didn't exactly have a tone to write home about, but they could take a beating. There is something to be said for that. However, I do think that a YAS-23 is a considerably superior horn in every respect except ruggedness. I also grant you that if you had to go new, I haven't heard a problem with the Kessler Custom, but I still haven't tested one (yes, I've e-mailed Dave a few times).

You're absolutely right: if you have a junky mouthpiece with junky reeds, the world's best horn isn't going to make you sound any better. Check out our other threads on the topics:

Mouthpieces for beginners (http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2789)
Ligatures (http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2832)

We don't have a specific thread for reeds for beginners, so maybe I'll start one ....

[UTEP Horn Guy]

We have a winner: http://www.wwbw.com/Bundy-BAS-300-Student-Alto-Saxophone-463681-i1411696.wwbw

These horns have NO relation to any previous Bundy saxophone. They're not even available yet: December 30.

That's actually the exact Bundy I had my eye on! I forgot if I mentioned this already, but I'm a trombone player. I don't plan on getting too serious with saxophone. I'm just looking for something that will let me play and is easy on the wallet.

[Carl H.]

I'm just looking for something that will let me play and is easy on the wallet.
Kessler or Junkdude.com

[Jacques5646]

Two YAS23's are at https://www.junkdude.com/ProductGroup.aspx?group=saxophones&id_prodcat=187 for $625, each.

If Junkdude (Dave) says it's in good shape, it's in good shape. Buy it. Don't get a Bundy II.

slight digressions: could you tell us the eqivalences between old and new Yam numbers: I'm sometimes doubling on a YAS 475 bought some years ago for my son. Is it an equivalent to the 23 ?
Thanks
J

[Carl H.]

It's a step up from the 23.

[jbtsax]

The 475 is Yamaha's step-up or intermediate horn. It has the fully tilting left hand spatula, adjustable bumpers, high F#, and low B to C# closing adjustment---features that are not found on the YAS 23 student model.

John

[clarnibass]

There are other "non-catalogue" important differences between Yamaha models and these related to build quality. Main one being loose stack rods inside posts. This can really interfere with accuracy of some adjustments. Another is non-level tone holes, which is sometimes ok and sometimes very bad on their student models, though never great on any that I've seen. Another difference, not so significant though, is headless pivot screws which after many years can become loose.

Specifically the first reason is why it is harder for me to recommend student Yamahas now when some cheaper Chinese and especially Taiwanese saxophones sometimes don't have this problem at all (and sometime much less). Still the problems of the student Yamahas are IMO very mild compared with Bundy II, or the really cheap and nasty Chinse saxophones which are terrible.

I've only seen one YAS-475 and it didn't have the main problem of the student models with the loose rods. Also for those who like Yamahas the tone of the student model is great. The 475 felt similar just "more". Same with the pro models IMO comapred with intermedaite, etc.

[Jacques5646]

Carl, John and Clarni,
Thanks for the info. My 475 has indeed a nice and rather warm tone with efficient machanism.
J

[pete]

slight digressions: could you tell us the eqivalences between old and new Yam numbers: I'm sometimes doubling on a YAS 475 bought some years ago for my son. Is it an equivalent to the 23 ?
Thanks
J
See http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2856