Bari in a concert band -- threshold of boredom?

[retread]

I play in four different ensembles, soprano clarinet in one concert band, tenor and alto in a small big band, and bari in a full big band and in a different concert band. After six years of bari in the concert band, I am, frankly, getting bored. Bari in a big band? Great! Clarinet in a concert band? Lots of fun. But I have lost my enthusiasm for concert band bari parts. Has anyone else experienced this?

[tictactux]

I play in four different ensembles, soprano clarinet in one concert band, tenor and alto in a small big band, and bari in a full big band and in a different concert band. After six years of bari in the concert band, I am, frankly, getting bored. Bari in a big band? Great! Clarinet in a concert band? Lots of fun. But I have lost my enthusiasm for concert band bari parts. Has anyone else experienced this?

Well, many concert band arrangements have a (e.g.) 5:3 doubling (like three voices spread out over five instruments in order to avoid "holes" due to lack of certain instruments in different bands), so you end up playing part of the 'bone voice, part of the bassoon voice, part of the bass clarinet voice etc. In other words: not a specific bari part which the composer explicitly wanted to be played on a bari. (same applies to a lot of the less common instruments).

I too find myself often playing transcribed cello parts on my bass clarinet, with a lot of emulated bow shoe-shining staccatos. True lyric parts are far and few between, at least for the common concert band's classic repertoire.

I didn't lose my enthusiasm. I get encouraging words from the front folks who say they rely on my grunty-mumbly sound carpet. I guess it's just how it is.
Still beats playing the lone triangle ding! once in bar 312.

[Gandalfe]

I am playing bari sax in concert band this year so that the regular bari player could play alto sax for the first time in his life. Gawd, as beautiful as the sound is, it is for the most part very boring (read safe). Especially as the instruments who double over 90% of the bari sax parts are sooo good. They include trombone, baritone, bassoon, and in some cases tuba. Gotta say though, playing the bari really helps with the air support thang.

[Merlin]

There are some great parts for bari in serious concert band rep, but next to nothing except the occasional fun funky bass line in most pop rep.

It's worth it playing bari on a piece like Copland's "Outdoor Overture".

[saxplayer1004]

If you don't have a full bassoon section you may be able to sweet talk the director into playing the bassoon parts. The music is much better usually and there is no real transposition involved

[retread]

That particular band has, depending on who shows up, two or three bassoons, two or three tubas, three or four baritone horns, enough trombones to to bring The Music Man to mind, one bass clarinet and one contra-bass clarinet. For most pieces the bari is (pick one) superfluous or redundant.

A couple of years ago, I told the director I was thinking of moving to clarinet. He said he likes having a bari in the band. As a good trouper, I agreed to stay on bari. A week ago, I told the director that I would be taking a break. The next day he emailed me to ask if I would play clarinet. I probably will. In any event, no more concert band bari for a while.

[pete]

If you don't have a full bassoon section you may be able to sweet talk the director into playing the bassoon parts. The music is much better usually and there is no real transposition involved
Unless the bassoon part is in tenor clef.

(For the folks that don't know, you take a bass clef part, just add three sharps to the key signature, forget that it's bass clef and substitute a treble clef, you've got an Eb bari part.)

I've played bari for years in a variety of concert bands and orchestras and the bari had always been used as filler, always doubling something. The only time I disliked this was when I was in a church orchestra and played bass parts one octave higher. THAT was unnecessary. Even when I played the bass part better than the bass player.

I've also played bass clarinet and contrabass clarinet. More doubling. However, in the bands/orchestras I've played in, it was better than either being one of the 20 or so second clarinet players. And alto and tenor sax doubles stuff, too.

[saxplayer1004]

Any true bass doubling, I use an Eb contra clarinet for. The couple steps at the bottom helps out a lot. Get down to a concert Gb and you can play about anything a tuba can. Pointless for most things though.

[pete]

Any true bass doubling, I use an Eb contra clarinet for.
In my post, I meant "bass" in the sense of "electric" or "upright". I may not have been clear.

The bari matches the cello or trombone, which aren't exactly "bass" instruments, but, well, baritone or tenor (strings: bass, cello, viola, violin; brass: tuba, trombone [or baritone horn], french horn [or alto horn], trumpet). I've remarked that an Eb contrabass sax can sound like a C tuba.

In the case of the contra clarinets, they just don't have enough power and poor projection. The Bb contrabass clarinet adds texture, but it's a sound that you feel more than you hear. In other words, it's great for an orchestra because they're all about texture. Somewhat iffy for band.

Now, I'm a vocalist. I'm a bass. My range is from the C two ledger lines below the bass clef staff to the C in the middle of the treble clef staff (A to A is more comfortable for me, tho; yes, I've sung tenor on occasion). I think my voice has a sounding range more like a bari sax than a tuba.

Just more fun on names and approximate ranges.

[saxplayer1004]

I was thinking more tuba, but I agree I prefer bari for timbre

I sing a cappella and opera bass, and mine is definitely much more like a bari sax than a clarinet. I think the technical term for it is basso profondo
Range from A1 to F4 ish full and A5 falsetto. Problem with a cappella is a lot of what I sing is pizzicato bass where as the operas are all belting. Does a wonder on my voice if I have to do both in the same week

[Groovekiller]

There are two approaches to concert band music:

1. Nail all the notes in record time
2. Make every note sound great, no matter how long it takes to learn how to do it

Even if you like #1 and are capable pf pulling it off, when you get bored, try #2.

Are you perfectly in tune on every note?

Is everything perfect? What if they pull a faster tempo out of the hat?

Is your car ready to go? How's your reed? What if it breaks? Where do you park?

Even if the notes seem easy, be prepared to play them musically and competently under the most unpleasant conditions. Making music is seldom about making the right notes, even under the most controlled conditions.

[SOTSDO]

And, like it or not, some parts are going to be boring. People accustomed to flute, trumpet and clarinet parts, even second or third chair ones, don't have an inkling of how boring a bass clarinet or baritone horn part can be, but they are (usually) as critical to the "integrity" of a given piece as the melody - just not as interesting.

I always tell my Second Tenor and Third Trombone guys that it pays the same. A bit different perhaps when you are playing for free, but what are you going to do?

[Gandalfe]

Well in my case I try to lead by example. I have played soprano to bass sax in this band and now five of the other saxophonists play more than one kind of sax. It gives us a little bit more flexibility. And you live for the time when the bass clarinet/bari sax player in the row ahead of you asks what mouthpiece you're using.

My goal is to cover the part so well that others want to play the bari part. And when I was chuggin' out that 16th note low B C# B C# part, I did note the alto and tenors looking on with interest. The core of the this community band is very strong and people who have gone to our concerts for years said this was the best concert ever; life is good.

[Merlin]

In the case of the contra clarinets, they just don't have enough power and poor projection. The Bb contrabass clarinet adds texture, but it's a sound that you feel more than you hear. In other words, it's great for an orchestra because they're all about texture. Somewhat iffy for band.

Well, in that case, bassoons are iffy in band. I can completely cover a bassoonist when I play contra clarinets...

[pete]

Well, in that case, bassoons are iffy in band. I can completely cover a bassoonist when I play contra clarinets...
Really? I used to sit next to a bassonist in my "orchestral band" and I thought she was louder than my Bb contra.

[saxplayer1004]

I agree with Merlin re. bassoons. The guy playing bass clarinet and I *paperclip BBb* covered 4 bassoons in wind ensemble. I think the low clarinets are a lot softer when you play them vs people hearing you because I never thought I was being heard and at the concerts random people came up to me saying they loved the low rumbling coming from the low reed section

[Merlin]

Really? I used to sit next to a bassonist in my "orchestral band" and I thought she was louder than my Bb contra.

It must have been that Rascher contra mouthpiece you were using! :twisted:

[retread]

I sat next to two bassoons and directly in from of a bass and a contra clarinet, and heard the bassoons better than the clarinets. But maybe it's because the bassoonists were stronger players.

Once the director experimented with placing the low woodwinds directly in from of the trombones. We couldn't hear ourselves, let alone each other. That lasted for one rehearsal.

[Al Stevens]

Could bari possibly be more boring than tenor in concert band? I moved from alto to tenor because that's where they needed help. Rarely any exposed parts.

[tictactux]

Could bari possibly be more boring than tenor in concert band? I moved from alto to tenor because that's where they needed help. Rarely any exposed parts.

Methinks the average modern arranger doesn't know how to deal with the low voices. They're needed for the texture, but their players give you the eye if they should stand up for a solo, or they hide behind their apparatuses anyway, tend to be smaller than their instruments, knock over other players when they sway a bit along the rhythm, constantly bemoan their fate when they haul their coffin-like cases with them, in other words, difficult to deal with people. Keep them in the back, low frequencies are omnidirectional anyway.

And IF there is a part, what does the player get slapped on their music stand? Sixteenths and hemidemisemiwhatevertheycallem on end, in the über-altissimo, with awkward fingering sequences. Worse than a castrate choir. Yech, boo, hiss.

Yet, I like the change - bass in winter, soprano in summer.

[retread]

Could bari possibly be more boring than tenor in concert band? I moved from alto to tenor because that's where they needed help. Rarely any exposed parts.
Tenor parts are even worse than bari. But tenor offers some exciting moments, such a low G when the arranger is too lazy to rewrite the bass clarinet part.

[retread]

And IF there is a part, what does the player get slapped on their music stand? Sixteenths and hemidemisemiwhatevertheycallem on end,

But I did enjoy the bari part on an arrangement we have of Marriage of Figaro. It mostly doubles the 3rd clarinets. When I recovered from passing out due to lack of oxygen they told me I looked to be having fun.

[tictactux]

When I recovered from passing out due to lack of oxygen they told me I looked to be having fun.
As others have pointed out, playing a low instrument does wonders to your (lung) stamina.

[Gandalfe]

Could bari possibly be more boring than tenor in concert band? I moved from alto to tenor because that's where they needed help. Rarely any exposed parts.The tenor sax chair is where most strapped band teachers hide their worst players. Totally unnecessary for most of the concert band literature. And I'm certainly not the first to say that.

[Al Stevens]

The tenor sax chair is where most strapped band teachers hide their worst players.
That explains it.

[Gandalfe]

That explains it.Hey, I've sat there cuz that's what the band needed. I can be a team player when necessary.

[pete]

The tenor sax chair is where most strapped band teachers hide their worst players. Totally unnecessary for most of the concert band literature. And I'm certainly not the first to say that.
And bari, as well. However, I still remember havening to perform a set piece as my final exam in HS. On bari. It was, of course, some alto sax thingy. I was told I could "take it down an octave if I needed to" (it only went up to D or some such) and the director was amazed I could play it as written. And I did have the highest grade of any of the sax players.

Well, I also owned my own bari. I owned two of them in HS. Not many students do that, either :).

It must have been that Rascher contra mouthpiece you were using!
In one of the few instances where there was a mouthpiece bigger than my Rascher bari, I did use the stock Leblanc contra 'piece. However, I think I coulda duct-taped the Racher onto the contra's neck.

[Al Stevens]

Hey, I've sat there cuz that's what the band needed. I can be a team player when necessary.
Likewise. Well, almost. I declined the glockenspiel chair.

[Carl H.]

Much of it depends on the group and pieces selected. I generally consider tenor & bari to be death by pp low D long tones. No thanks, I'll do them on my terms and time.

When I get I get sucked into those seats in cruddy groups, all of a sudden network TV looks kind of interesting. I end up spending 85% of the rehearsal time sitting and doing nothing while the interesting parts are being run through by the conducktor.

No thanks please.

Hey, I've sat there cuz that's what the band needed. I can be a team player when necessary.
Likewise. Well, almost. I declined the glockenspiel chair.
In a good group, mallets are a lot of fun. Playing the parts and choreographing the instrument changes keeps you on your toes!

[bar-ron]

Our director must pick music just so I don't get bored, Montana, by Jan Van Der Roost (a lot of his stuff is juicy), The Doors in concert, Sanford and sons, Olympic theme and fanfare, I'll be there (Four tops), Mit Freischum Schwung, Theme Basses, Graf Zeppelin (The conqueror), America the beautiful Carmen Dragon, and countless others with substantial bari parts. There was Can't stop the beat from hair that smoked.

I like when I can hold notes for so long that the tenor starts looking at me like I'm some sort of deep sea diver and I sound like a string bass yawning endlessly.

Sanford and sons was fun with the Berg Larson on so I could rip those bottom notes loud enough that 40 band members seemed like my back up band...they were calling me Harley.:-D

Check out our bands CD mvcband.org and give it to your band director.
Half the songs are Bari friendly. Most of the regular songs I'm on a Hite but the cooking ones I switch to the Berg for that extra power without as much work. It's a rather dark Berg but it is a berg all the same.

[Gandalfe]

Our director must pick music just so I don't get bored, Montana, by Jan Van Der Roost (a lot of his stuff is juicy), The Doors in concert, Sanford and sons, Olympic theme and fanfare, I'll be there (Four tops), Mit Freischum Schwung, Theme Basses, Graf Zeppelin (The conqueror), America the beautiful Carmen Dragon, and countless others with substantial bari parts. There was Can't stop the beat from hair that smoked.

I like when I can hold notes for so long that the tenor starts looking at me like I'm some sort of deep sea diver and I sound like a string bass yawning endlessly.

Sanford and sons was fun with the Berg Larson on so I could rip those bottom notes loud enough that 40 band members seemed like my back up band...they were calling me Harley.:-D

Check out our bands CD mvcband.org and give it to your band director.
Half the songs are Bari friendly. Most of the regular songs I'm on a Hite but the cooking ones I switch to the Berg for that extra power without as much work. It's a rather dark Berg but it is a berg all the same.Those do sound like fun and I'll check out the Web site. It's a good director who selects songs based on the strength of the band. 8-)

[AltoRuth]

It's a good director who selects songs based on the strength of the band. 8-)

How true! Re: the bari part in the three community bands with which I've played---I've seen several bari players come and go. From my limited experience, a bad bari player is a dangerous thing in a community band---the lack of control and bad intonation, combined with the strong liklihood of their playing way too loud is problematic for the group and especially for the director, particularly so when the official policy is "come one, come all". I'll stay with alto---easier to cover my deficiencies.

However, I've also had the pleasure of those times when we've had someone on bari who was in control of the instrument, knew his/her place in the ensemble, and made it happen. At those times it was pure pleasure when the director had the wisdom to pick the correct rep. I think of bari in a wind ensemble in much the same way as I regard the oboe----badly played it is very painful (except the oboe gets more solo stuff and is hence is even more potentially dangerous). And I'd put the bass clarinet right up there with those two. At this point in my history with community bands, none have a bari player; two have adequate oboists and the other has no oboe (I get some good cues to play!); one of the bands has a sublime bass clarinet player, and the other two, well-----'nuff said.

Of course, there is always cowbell........

Regards,

Ruth

[Carl H.]

Add Bassoon to Ruth's list. The guy around here who plays everywhere is something else. I think he plays an Olds, or is it a Buick,, Hard to tell with the earplugs.

[bar-ron]

I missed a few rehearsals due to work so I was glad to get back cranking out the bottom. The tubas and the trombones actually like my steadfast musical ability and tempos. I especially like when we are doing some monstrous thundering low not at fortissimo and a few of the clarinet players can't help turning around and laughing as I part their hair.

I used to be the alto player that reveled in playing the lead but quite frankly I consider my job adding dynamics to the bottom notes, depth and sweetness to trombone and baritone parts my enjoyment now. When I play Sanford and Sons or the Olympic theme from John Williams and have to be heard and felt across the stage I love it.

Ya sure a lot of times the notes are just big long and easy...but they are the richness and tone of the entire bottom end and in some cases the growl that is needed for adding snap to otherwise too puffy of a Tuba note.

After being away a few weeks quite a few band members were concerned as my sound is so important to the bands over all tone and I am missed quite a bit when I'm not there..I never had that concern when I was an alto among many. Even just something like Siverado the bari adds to the over all power here and there.

In sax quartet I wouldn't want to play anything but bari or Bass and have fun with the simplicity but oh so important parts. I think I am just addicted to the smooth low tone and eyeball rattling power.

[Gandalfe]

I got to play bari sax at the last concert. The regular bari player wanted to play alto, so we swapped. He is struggling with the intonation of the alto sax as is another player in that section. For the first time that I can remember, the alto saxes sounded too loud; dissonance makes for a louder sound.

However, I got to play with some of the best tbones, bass clarinets, euphoniums, and tubas ever. Much but not all of the low lines were doubled. The low bass sound was fabulous and I'm glad I did it. (I'm back on alto and wrestling with trying to make the 4 altos sound like two during the P and PP marked parts.

Here's an example of the result of a song selected to highlight the strengths of this band. You'll want to put a headset on to hear this well.

WCB - The Witch and the Saint (http://www.youtube.com/user/Gandalfe?feature=mhw4#p/u/5/6p37-2lRGqg)