A Discussion About YAGE

[clarinetgirlandswimmer]

With all due respect jbtsax,

Now if the parents are ignorant as to the value of starting their child out on a better quality instrument, that's another story.
If that is the case, and they can truly afford a higher quality clarinet, I might concider making recommendations as to what might be a suitable upgrade.
Until then... Well... I'll keep my mouth shut.

Both my mother and father do not play a musical instrument, I have no members in my family who has any musical knowledge, this is why my father suggested I joined a woodwind forum.
My music teacher (who plays Flute, Clarinet, Sax) spoke to my mum & said that later I should change my clarinet.
The UK run a system where you can claim the VAT back if you are a student. The budget for a new clarinet is £500 excluding VAT, the max and no Xmas or Birthday presents for the next few years.
I was about 8 years old when I started my first 1 to 1 Clarinet lessons and my parents did not want to spend to much money on a clarinet, just encase I did not stick with the instument and I received my Venus as a Birthday & Xmas present a few years ago.

Thank you for the link to Normans, which I have had a look and will talk with my clarinet teacher. Also thank you for your help to those of you who have been kind.

But I will not be coming on this forum anymore " if the parents are ignorant as to the value of starting their child out on a better quality instrument," My parents have always done there best with me and my mum sits with me to help me learn the translations of the words for my theory test.
Thank you to everyone else who were kind and helpful.:cry:

[Tammi]

I apologise for any misunderstanding and poor choice of words.

I have asked that I no longer be allowed to post on The Woodwind Forum.

[Carl H.]

I have asked that I no longer be allowed to post on The Woodwind Forum.


B S

:evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:Don't you do it!!!!!!!!:evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:






:evil:

[Tammi]

B S


:evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:Don't you do it!!!!!!!!:evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:







:evil:




My track record here is not good.
In my comment to jbtsax I managed to hurt some little girls' feelings to the point that she won't come back.
That was my fault.
In order to keep the young ones here, and the older ones from getting mad, it's best that I no longer put in my 2 cents.
There are enough people here that have far more experience than I to give worthwhile advice.
I have proven myself unworthy.
I will now politely and respectfully bow out.

[pete]

It's again time for ...



Per official forum rules (http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=873), I'm going to say that the YAGEs in this thread by both Tammi and clarinetgirlandswimmer were waaay too lame and they need to be invited back for an encore performance.

a. To satisfy my right to ban everyone and everything, I do think that both Tammi and clarinetgirlandswimmer could use some time off, say a week. Cool off. Spend some time away from the forum. At least, think up better YAGEs :P.

b. clarinetgirlandswimmer, if you want to pick up and find another forum, that's your prerogative, but if you want to stay here, please note that everyone is trying to be as helpful as possible and one should be slow to take offense.

If y'all have any questions, you can e-mail me at saxpics@gmail.com.

[SOTSDO]

And just what is a YAGE? Inquiring minds want to know...

[Gandalfe]

And just what is a YAGE? Inquiring minds want to know...Yet Another Grand Exit.

[pete]

And just what is a YAGE? Inquiring minds want to know...
Meaning, of course, someone posting something in the form of:

I hate you all. You're never going to see me here again. I have 2,437 years experience in the music industry (yes, in addition to everything else, I am the Highlander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlander_%28film%29). There can be only one) and played with John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Sigurd Rascher, Benny Goodman, Adolphe Sax, Adam AND Eve. I helped design the Mark VI, Super 20, Martin Magna, Heckelphone, R13, Fox bassoon, and the Powell flutes!

You won't have me to kick around anymore! Delete my account!I generally grade YAGEs based on the list of how many people you played with and any music-industry credentials you list in your YAGE. Extra points for saying how much you helped everyone on the forum and/or how the forum's nothing without you.

===============

While I'm obviously having way too much fun with this, it's a serious problem: at SOTW, for instance, I've had to ban people that thought they had the "cult-of-personality" thing goin' and that they were more important than the forum itself. Umm. No. No, you aren't. Very, very few people have both the musical credentials, personality, character, postcount and information to be that essential. If you can't take an e-mail/PM/post from an Admin saying that you need to cool it a bit, a YAGE isn't the best idea.

The only time a "goodbye" is really needed and desired is if there's a staff member leaving for some reason. There's a logical reason for this: you don't want to e-mail someone to do admin tasks if he's no longer an admin and a former CE probably doesn't want to be bothered with Private Messages and e-mails, either.

(Bonus points for getting the Nixon reference, BTB.)

[Carl H.]

Could you clarify for me, did Tammi voluntarily have herself Martysaxed here?

When is her time in the hole over?

[pete]

Could you clarify for me, did Tammi voluntarily have herself Martysaxed here?

When is her time in the hole over?
I thought I was rather specific in my earlier post (http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24393&postcount=24): I gave her and clarinetgirlandswimmer a week to cool down. It's been more than a week, so the ban has been lifted.

In my opinion, Tammi made a mistake and I don't think mistakes are worthy of being perma-banned. And I thought the YAGE was weak.

For CG&S (name's too long), I think that she needs to understand that we have a rule of trying to take things that are posted in the best possible way and/or take it up with the admins if there's a problem. And her YAGE was weak, too.

FWIW, I have not received any PMs or e-mails from either party.

I was not an admin on SOTW by the time martysax showed up there, so I don't know the content of the posts that got him temp banned more than once. I have heard some things, but because I have "half the story", I don't mind if marty visits, but he's gotta play by the same rules as everyone else: play nice, respect the CEs and Admins.

[SteveSklar]

..... Martysaxed .....
why is it I know what he's talking about ?? lol

[jbtsax]

With all due respect to the forum moderator Clarinetswimmergirl's response TO Tammi was polite and mature beyond her years. I don't feel that a "time out" for her was appropriate, even with the tongue in cheek humor about coming up with a better YAGE which I am certain she did not know what it meant.

She had every right to be offended by the questioning of the competence of her teacher and the support of her parents. I would have been offended in the same situation.


John

[Dave Dolson]

John: I disagree, to a point. I for one questioned HER description of the situation, not so much the competence of others (although until their role in all of this was adequately explained, I guess many of us were leery). Given the history of such queries both here and on that other sax-site, the young girl's initial description was lacking in sufficient detail for any of us to offer reasonable and good advice.

That is not a fatal flaw given her young age and inexperience - and I think it was reasonable to pursue further explanations from her before coming to grips with her question. I mean, how many times in the past have we discovered through more questions, that a poster's advice to buy a new instrument came from a band director who had no real knowledge of woodwinds?

So without knowing WHO was giving the advice, should we have just assumed that everyone around her was competent and gone forward with advice to spend $1K or more, when in fact, maybe merely improving her current instrument would have been perfectly fine?

Maybe some posts were over the line, but a broad accusation is unfair. I don't think the young lady should be sat down, either. Of course, she was the one who walked off in a huff. DAVE

[Gandalfe]

<one man's opinion>I viewed John's post with a sigh, "Here we go again." It can be hard on the Internet to tell what a person really means and automatically *all* posts can come across as harsh if care isn't taken to soften the blow. Words without the queues of inflection, facial expression, and voice tone can be hard to parse correctly.

Speaking of the mod/admin staff, moderating is not an easy task. There is *always* someone who will be offended, even the in best of cases. If one of our peeps is thin skinned, leaving the group is probably a good idea. But leaving for a week or so can give one time to cool down and evaluate the value of a forum in a better light.

Forums aren't for everyone. But for those who stay around, participate, and contribute, it can be both a nice diversion as well as a resource. </end opinion>

This is a good discussion but we probably will need to place it in a better place by splitting it from the original.

[pete]

With all due respect to the forum moderator Clarinetswimmergirl's response Tammi was polite and mature beyond her years.
Mmm. I think you dropped a word or two. Tammi's in her 40's, IIRC. CG&S is the 12-year-old.

I don't feel that a "time out" for her was appropriate, even with the tongue in cheek humor about coming up with a better YAGE
Per forum rules, you YAGE, you get banned. Both did that. I just didn't feel that their YAGEs deserved permanent banning. In other words, I gave them both a second chance. If they wanna take it, so much the better. If not, no skin off my teeth.

This is a good discussion but we probably will need to place it in a better place by splitting it from the original.
Which it shall be. When I get a chance :).

[jbtsax]

John: I disagree, to a point. I for one questioned HER description of the situation, not so much the competence of others (although until their role in all of this was adequately explained, I guess many of us were leery). Given the history of such queries both here and on that other sax-site, the young girl's initial description was lacking in sufficient detail for any of us to offer reasonable and good advice.

That is not a fatal flaw given her young age and inexperience - and I think it was reasonable to pursue further explanations from her before coming to grips with her question. I mean, how many times in the past have we discovered through more questions, that a poster's advice to buy a new instrument came from a band director who had no real knowledge of woodwinds?

So without knowing WHO was giving the advice, should we have just assumed that everyone around her was competent and gone forward with advice to spend $1K or more, when in fact, maybe merely improving her current instrument would have been perfectly fine?

Maybe some posts were over the line, but a broad accusation is unfair. I don't think the young lady should be sat down, either. Of course, she was the one who walked off in a huff. DAVE

Here is the way I am looking at it from the beginning of the thread. The young lady wrote this:

Hi Everyone,

I was wondering if you could help me, I am looking to buy a new B flat clarinet. I am going to be taking my grade 4 in Easter so I need a good quality clarinet.

At the moment I have a Venus CL511W clarinet. Please see pictures.

Could anyone reccommend me a clarinet? If so, please could you tell me the model, price etc....

Thanks.
From clarinetgirlandswimmer
xxxxx

That is very clear and straight forward. She asked, "Can anyone recommend a good clarinet naming the model and price?" She even gave her level of experience and what clarinet she is currently playing on. Then the third degree began. At that point the "probative questions" were unnecessary and uncalled for. A serious student wants to move up to a better clarinet, period. Her teacher's instrument or competence or her parent's interest and commitment are totally irrelevant to the original question. That is the way I view the unfortunate exchange. Let's help young people who come to the forum not discourage them and turn them away.

John

[jbtsax]

Mmm. I think you dropped a word or two. Tammi's in her 40's, IIRC. CG&S is the 12-year-old. Corrected
Per forum rules, you YAGE, you get banned.
This is a bit confusing Pete. There is nothing mentioned about YAGE in the posted forum rules. It is however mentioned in the banning protocol which starts out by stating that "a person gets banned for a bannable offense" linking to WF's Plain and Simple Rules which again doesn't mention YAGE.

This policy sounds kind of like the boss telling the employee "If you quit, your'e fired".

John

[pete]

Sorry for the interruption.

As requested by another Admin (see above), I've split off the discussion about YAGEs to this thread from http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2949

Carry on.

[SteveSklar]

with online forums one cannot spell out any and all potential conflicts for banning, etc. "Common sense and discussion (not publicly seen)" is the rules and best method for the Admin staff in the gray areas.

[pete]

Corrected

This is a bit confusing Pete. There is nothing mentioned about YAGE in the posted forum rules. It is however mentioned in the banning protocol which starts out by stating that "a person gets banned for a bannable offense" linking to WF's Plain and Simple Rules which again doesn't mention YAGE.

This policy sounds kind of like the boss telling the employee "If you quit, your'e fired".

John
a. It's in a Forum entitled "Forum Rules". You're splitting hairs, but I'll make it clearer.
b. CG&S specifically wrote "But I will not be coming on this forum anymore" and Tammi wrote "I have asked that I no longer be allowed to post on The Woodwind Forum." Those are YAGEs, albeit poor ones.

Further, it's not, "If you quit, you're fired" it's more, "I'm not going to let you post a grand missive of all the wrongs done to you and why you're no longer posting here. Or come back and start defacing my forum." The ONLY reason that I allowed CG&S and Tammi's posts to stay up is because I think that Tammi had a small case of foot-in-mouth disease and that CG&S blew it out of proportion -- she's 12, after all. That happens.

FWIW, while I do think some of the interrogation of CG&S was a bit harsh, I do think the question of, "Are you buying this yourself or are your parents/relatives/others helping?" should be asked. However, as I've mentioned, I bought -- myself -- two baritone saxophones before I was 18, so I could understand a "kid" being offended that he's being questioned about what he's buying with his own cash that he earned.

[pete]

Could you clarify for me, did Tammi voluntarily have herself Martysaxed here?
For those of you who don't know, "martysax" is a poster on SOTW that has been temp banned repeatedly, generally for posting something he really shouldn't. I actually coined the term "martysaxed" for people that got temp banned for something they said -- and the term stuck. (I hope to be up there with the folks that coined "LOL".)

FWIW, I again mention that a) martysax came aboard SOTW after I left the Admin team and b) all bans were approved by Harri, SOTW's owner, when I was an Admin.

[tictactux]

That is very clear and straight forward. She asked, "Can anyone recommend a good clarinet naming the model and price?" She even gave her level of experience and what clarinet she is currently playing on. Then the third degree began. At that point the "probative questions" were unnecessary and uncalled for. A serious student wants to move up to a better clarinet, period. Her teacher's instrument or competence or her parent's interest and commitment are totally irrelevant to the original question. That is the way I view the unfortunate exchange. Let's help young people who come to the forum not discourage them and turn them away.
I hear you, John...however my experience in the field of "upgrading" taught me to ask stupid questions.

If someone came and said "my computer is slow, I want a new one", I try to pinpoint the cause for this impression, and sometimes it is indeed time for a new one, and sometimes all it takes is reformatting and reinstalling the operating system (comparable to a tech-going-over-an-instrument).

I'd be a lousy salesperson, I know, but I usually take my "customers" seriously enough to offer a bit of my time and help them find out what's the right thing to do.

Especially when someone with "lesser" equipment arrives it is not more than fair to find out what is bad and why; this will help to make a better decision next time.

Anyhow, when I think I did something bad, I either apologise with a post, or a PM.

[Al Stevens]

This episode causes me to reflect. We had a disagreement a while back about encouraging children to participate on this forum. I learned privately that my position was not a popular one. Now, to me at least, it has been reinforced. (Probably not fair to base it on only one episode, though.)

The child misunderstood the intent of an adult's advice, took it all to heart, and we've lost not only the child but a valued adult member.

And now we have other members disagreeing about who meant what when who said what.

I just stumbled across this thread today. I don't usually read clarinet threads. Makes me feel inferior, being a tenor player and all.

(Maybe a "weak" YAGE should be called a YAWE.)

I met Marty last year at the Saxophone Symposium. Interesting guy. I'd have hung with him longer, but I can't drink that good anymore.

Do I detect an Incredibly Bad Idea lurking in this thread? Just joking.

[Al Stevens]

Tammi, if you can see this, I love you, and I miss you. Since you left here and I am persona non grata the other place where you post, we have become like "two stones that pass in the night."*

* Seriously, a woman said that to me once. A blonde.

[SteveSklar]

The underlaying issue at hand is how does one advise a student .. whether that student is very young or older.

When you teach and a student informs that teacher that they would like to upgrade (or the teacher recommends upgrading) they hae some insight on the fiscal capabilities of that student and know their playing abilities et all.

Normally students are not adept enough to play test or search and research. They are after a 1 line answer of "buy <this or that instrument>". Such as the recommendations you hear of buying a YAS-23/Vito.

But online we do not have that insight into that student. We don't know how much money, we don't know background or they may be playing an R13 that has leaks galore.

We have to ask questions to get an understanding.
We just need to be more civilized and understanding about it.

[AltoRuth]

....... we have become like "two stones that pass in the night."*

* Seriously, a woman said that to me once. A blonde.

Careful there, Al. Surely you wouldn't want to precipitate another YAGE (or even a YAWE):-D

[Groovekiller]

Pete wrote,

"I hate you all. You're never going to see me here again. I have 2,437 years experience in the music industry (yes, in addition to everything else, I am the Highlander. There can be only one) and played with John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Sigurd Rascher, Benny Goodman, Adolphe Sax, Adam AND Eve. I helped design the Mark VI, Super 20, Martin Magna, Heckelphone, R13, Fox bassoon, and the Powell flutes!

You won't have me to kick around anymore! Delete my account!"

Could you send me the email of whoever played with Adolphe Sax, Sigurd Rascher, and Charlie parker? I have a couple of questions about both Adolphe and Bird.

[SteveSklar]

.......
Could you send me the email of whoever played with Adolphe Sax, Sigurd Rascher, and Charlie parker? I have a couple of questions about both Adolphe and Bird.
It wasn't me .. I didn't help at all with the Fox Bassoon even though Nixon asked me too ..... :evil:

[LampLight]

Wow, you guys sure know how to make someone from SOTW feel right at home. :twisted:


Al: Good to see you and your sharp wit again.

Tammi: By all means chill out, but come back soon. Al is not your only fan!

[pete]

I can think of another few things, but I'll leave with, "The main idea is to play nice. Also note that everyone here isn't a native English speaker, so try to take everything in the nicest possible way. Even those of us who are native English don't always say the right thing, or drop words or whatever, so step back a bit."

FWIW, there have only been three or four actual members that have been banned here (in two years).

[tictactux]

It wasn't me .. I didn't help at all with the Fox Bassoon even though Nixon asked me too ..... :evil:
I should add that Chuck Norris is my repairman.

[steen]

WooF cannot really have YAGEs. "YA" requires that there have been many before. "G" a certain amount of pomp and circumstance, which WooF thankfully seems to manage without. That leaves "E".

It is simple to assume that people who exit always leave because they are overtly sensitive. However, based on my experience on SOTW, I would say that just as often other members are to blame. I don't know how many times I have seen a newcomer asking a question and/or posting something for sale and being bullied with condescending remarks about search function and posting rules. Forgetting to list where something ships from does not entitle other members to give rude responses. Not being able to derive much information from the search function does not imply stupidity. In most cases, it would make more sense to complain that people haven't used Google instead.

Also, I don't know how many times I have seen a member ask about A and being told that they should concern themselves with B instead, which sometimes is fine, other times not so fine. For instance, if a person had decided to buy a Mark VI tenor and came to the forum for advice on what vintage sax retailer I could trust, then it might just be a good idea to help the person accomplish hers/his goals. Not tell her/him that it is a waste of money, that she/he is too young to make a decision, and/or that it really is more important to practice on your YTS-23. It might just be a someone with blockbuster chops on the end of the line (...is anyone going to tell a Fracesco Cafiso that he shouldn't buy any sax he desires???).

Moderators aren't perfect either. Some lack a sense of logic and enforce their own rules erratically. Everybody makes mistakes, so perhaps it is wise to acknowledge it when it happens instead of denying it. Even if you are a moderator, chances are that you will run into individuals who are smarter and/or have a better sense of logic. At least admit it if you really messed up, perhaps not publicly but then write a PM.

Finally, there is the thing about humor that Gandalfe points out and discussed elsewhere. I am guilty of that in spades and try to moderate it.

[hakukani]

All the girls where I grew up were female....I think:grin:

[tjontheroad]

Always remember... YAGE also stands for "Yet Another Grand Entrance". Meaning, you're always welcome to come back :-)

[SOTSDO]

One problem that I have seen on this (and other services) is the tendency to use code phrases and acronyms like "YAGE", the web (and other programming) tags like " blah, blah, blah ", and other "shorthand" like "LMAO". While this may get the message across to those in the know, it leaves those less "web board enabled" out of the loop.

I've been involved in moderating since the early days of personal computers (starting when I was once the infamous (to the Apple Newton community, at least) "PDC Sensha" on America Online, a long, long, long time ago), so I'm not exactly new to the concepts involved, but I have to confess that I had no earthly idea as to what "YAGE" meant. I can only imagine what a (nominally, see below) eight or twelve year old girl, searching for help on a woodwind bulletin board, thinks when she sees such stuff.

The rules of composition that I was force-fit to allowed for abbreviations, acronyms and the like, just so long as you define them at the first instance that they are used. Now, obviously, there are limits to this sort of thing - imagine having to define "PM" as "Post Meridian", a definition that would also need to be defined for most, each time it first came up in an internet posting. But, I think it is better to say "We don't tolerate nasty postings around these parts when you are leaving" than it is to respond (undefined) "YAGE".

(Of course, I know that most are not as well-endowed in the typing department as are the likes of moi (French for "me"). Many of these shorthand phrases may have had their genesis in the ham-hands of two fingered touch typists. Still, if the purpose of the Internets is to communicate, there as few obstacles as possible ought to be placed between the speaker ("typer") and the listener ("reader").

Of course, this is not my website, and bear in mind that these are only my opinions. But, they are opinions that are also held by those far more qualified in communications than me...

NOTES ON THE GIRL:

From the style and content of the postings from the young lady who is part of this discussion, I get the impression that she is either exceptionally intelligent for her age, or that she is not really what she seems.

This is nothing new. The news media carry stories of adults posing as children on the Internet, and I would imagine that any given person could come up with some reason to do this. Why, I don't know. But, I suspect it nonetheless.

Similarly, I am of the opinion that virtually all of the folks with low post counts who put up something like "I have an old saxophone that used to belong to my uncle - (here, insert description of generic Conn horn) - how much is it worth?" are nothing more than folks trying to make a buck on eBay with a horn that they picked up in a pawn shop.

But, we're not about to start certifying everyone that we meet on the Internets...

[Al Stevens]

...but I have to confess that I had no earthly idea as to what "YAGE" meant.
Although YAGE seems to be well-known to users of forums such as this one, a google search does not return the definition we use, so I would not feel left out on that one. I recall that I had to ask the first time I saw it on another forum.
Many of these shorthand phrases may have had their genesis in the ham-hands of two fingered touch typists.
Abbreviated acronym and emoticon usage originated in the old days when we used 300 baud modems and tty devices to manage online business. Pre-Internet even. It has more recently been adopted by the iPhone texting kids because those little keyboards are so difficult to use. OMG, WTF.

[Gandalfe]

Point taken about being clear when communicating. I enjoy using slang if'n I feel like it. But there is always a kinda twinge on my part especially having been a tech writer at one point in my life. It can also be hard for our readers with ESL (English as a Second Language) skills.

Should we demand that every one use high English, with proper grammar and few if any dangling participles? Naw, we encourage our forum users to strive to be understandable and to the extend that they are capable, that seems to work.

In my experience, acronyms abound in every arena of endeavor. I look up the new ones and if I can't find them online and if I care enough, I'll ask for a definition. I can't imagine telling people to stop using acronyms at work; they'd probably think I was a jerk. Changing fields will really demonstrate how annoying the over-use of acronyms can be. My first day at Microsoft I had over 20 new acronyms written in my notebook. And I thought the military was bad.

Sure, it's an extra step to look stuff up. But as long as the writing isn't crazy full of acronyms, I don't mind learning something new. If there are so many acronyms, slang, and grammar problems that I can't follow, I'll probably just move on to the next post. That happens about once a week on the various forums that I participate in.

What is a little more insidious to me is the use of the inside joke. I guess you had to be there is the mentality of a lot of people who use them. That can be frustrating and certain fosters a climate of exclusion.

[SteveSklar]

....... Abbreviated acronym and emoticon usage originated in the old days when we used 300 baud modems and tty devices to manage online business.....
I remember the 130baud manual duplex selection modems. Ahh .. those were the days .. online chat rooms ... pure text based .....

[pete]

I remember the 130baud manual duplex selection modems. Ahh .. those were the days .. online chat rooms ... pure text based .....
You kids had text? Why I remember .... Hey! You! Get off my lawn!

[tictactux]

"That'd be post meridiem. This is Latin, not longitude. "
Of course, if you're a sailor you may feel a faint bump when you cross a meridian.

[steen]

I was happy until I found out I have ESL. :shock: :(

[tictactux]

I was happy until I found out I have ESL. :shock: :(

LOL, that's exactly what went through my head when I read it!

[saxhound]

All right - enough with the TLAs*.



* Three Letter Acronyms

[tictactux]

All right - enough with the TLAs*.



* Three Letter Acronyms

GTYR!





(Go To Your Room!)

[Gandalfe]

GTYR!(Go To Your Room!)Nicely hidden definition. GTYR was a new acronym for me. Only found it in the Urban Slang site.

[saxhound]

I wasn't going to ask - I didn't get it either. Google kept coming up with Yamaha motorcycle exhaust systems.

[steen]

LOL, that's exactly what went through my head when I read it!
At least we are also NEOSesnot English-only speakers...

[Ed Svoboda]

I remember the 130baud manual duplex selection modems. Ahh .. those were the days .. online chat rooms ... pure text based .....

I remember and used acoustic coupled modems when I was 11 or 12. I think I've used every modem speed from 30 baud on up.

BBS systems were great fun to play with in the 80's.

[saxhound]

OK, as long as we are reminiscing, let's talk about some really early computing stuff:

1. Teletype terminals with yellow paper punch tape. You typed up your program offline, then dialed in to the computer (acoustic coupler) and ran your tape through the reader. Wait a few minutes, and your output (or an error message) would print out.
2. Good old fashioned IBM 026 card punch machines. You typed up your program a step at a time on 80 column punch cards, then took it to the operator window and dropped it in the box. Don't forget the pre-punched orange 6789 card at the back to signal the computer that the job was ended. The operator ran your card deck through the card reader which uploaded it to the mainframe through an interpreter. Wait a few minutes (or longer), and you got your output at another window all printed up on greenbar paper.
3. IBM 370 mainframe terminals with a light pen. You clicked on various things like this: < > to navigate through the screens.
4. One of the earliest computer games - Hunt The Wumpus. IIRC, it ran on a PDP-11 or a CDC-6400.
5. IBM 3380 series disk drives. Capacity of 1 Gb. Size about the same as your kitchen refrigerator. Oh, by the way, you needed a disk controller too. It was bigger than the drive. Price when new for a 9Gb array with controller >$300,000.

I am an old f@rt!

[Al Stevens]

The first stored-program computer I programmed was an IBM 650. That was in '59 as I recall. 1K Drum memory. Vacuum tube logic. The programming language was called SOAP II, which was an assembly language. I still have the programmer's manual and the operator's guides.

[SOTSDO]

This may have been related before, but it bears unearthing a second time:

Backup Your Data…1970’s Style
A Cautionary Tale Of Love, Musical Magic, And Computer Programming Done The Old Way
By
Terry L. Stibal

Ah, Hollerith cards. Don't get me started about Hollerith cards. You young whippersnappers with yer magnetic tape and yer cathode ray tubes…In my day, you sat at a keypunch machine for five hours, punching and re-punching the cards that contained the programming until you got it right, or so you thought. Then it was down to the room with the counter where you stood until one of the operator geeks deigned to notice you and take your handiwork. Then it was only the matter of a couple of hours until somebody delivered a sixty page printout that would help you sort out your five one-letter syntax errors. And they wonder what took us so long to get color computers...

Gather around my children, wait for me to fill my (metaphoric) pipe (tap, tap, tap...flash...puff, puff, puff), and listen to a moving tale of musical and computer madness and young love from a time long ago:

I once had a huge program (designed to sort out probable duplicate veteran claims following the great NPRC fire in 1973) that took up the better part of a box of the damn’d things. I’d work on it at work during the slack time at the then-VA during the day, compiling and testing as I went, then them one or two nights a week to the university where I was in attendance (where I had computer system privileges) to do the same during the middle of the night.

Being young and running flush with hormones, I was attempting to combine the rather bizarre cycles involved with compiling and debugging a pretty complicated computer program written in a weak programming language (RPG, to be specific) with an active second job as a musician and a social agenda that could best be described as a juggling act. (But, I hasten to add, it was a programming concept that won me a sizeable cash award from a Federal agency notorious for being as tight as a drum.)

In any event, it was not something you attempt to do lightly, but I was young and restless, and the first stages of a glorious autumn were in the air. And, as might be expected, mistakes were made.

There I was, heading out to the amusement park for the laughingly named “afternoon” shift (which ran from five o’clock until closing) In the bed of my pickup truck (an unusual ride for anyone back in the early ‘Seventies, despite what you see these days) were my five horns (I played the Reed IV book in the pit orchestra in the theater where they put on the musical shows, and I had to provide a wide variety of woodwind instruments as my tools of the trade), my late, thresherman-sized "lunch" (two sandwiches, two Hostess snacks, two pieces of fruit, and a Styrofoam cooler with four bottles of Coke, in the then-rare sixteen ounce size), and my big box of Hollerith cards.

Up in the cab with your correspondent was a young lady (one Barbie F.) who had just replaced one of the “good” singers/dancers when the A list crowd had gone back to college. While not much in the talent department (although she had appeared on the Ted Mack Amateur Hour once, or so her mother told me), she had a number of attributes that interested me, most of which were displayed to good effect when she did the bob and twirl routine to the strains of “It's Such A Pretty World Today”, tricked out in a 1890’s outfit that suited her youthful willowy figure just so.

For those who have never spent any time in a orchestra pit, it’s hard to realize what it is like to look at well-displayed beauty, orbiting by just over your head, seven to eight times a day. You develop a sort of rhythm to it all, knowing just when to tilt your head up from the part and the conductor, memorizing a few bars of music and following the drums rather than the baton, just because you know that at that point in the number, she’ll be making a star turn only inches away. With Barbie, I would actually lengthen the peg on the bottom of my bass clarinet a couple of inches before the number in question, just so I could continue to play the part in the best American Federation of Musicians traditions of excellence, yet get a good clear view of the stage without moving my head...

Oops...drifted off for a second there...now, where was I?

Anyway, she needed a ride to work, and I was needing something that she had, so it was only natural that we were soon paying a lot of attention to each other as we rolled to our respective musical destinies at 70 mph down the then-new interstate highway on the way to the park. And, I was happy that she chose to sit in the middle of the seat, close to the then svelte and muscular (and, dare I say it, “attractive to the opposite sex”) T. Stibal, instead of over on the shotgun side…a portent of what was yet to come, if you will.

Later, it was said that the genesis of our budding romance could be tracked by the windrow of punch cards deposited by the side of the highway as we sped through the afternoon sun on that fine fall day. It seems that someone forgot that the open tray-like box was not quite the container to be carrying small, flat paper objects at seventy per. (On previous trips, it had always sat on the seat next to me, right where her oh-so-shapely bottom was nestled up against my then-muscular thigh.)

(Despite the wonderful beginning, ours was a brief affair. She had to start carpooling with someone else after her two weeks of bliss with the all powerful and knowing stud muffin that was I in the early 1970’s. For all I know she is still feeling the pain. However, it lasted just long enough for me, what with the impending arrival of the just as attractive and far more malleable Michelle)

Of the huge numbers of cards containing the program and the data set, only about two hundred of the data cards remained. The rest had fluttered out of the tray over the length of the twenty mile highway run, flipping up into the eddies in the slipstream coming off the roof of the cab as I blasted by other cars and trucks, and dribbled along the side of the highway.

All the while, I was distracted from the intermittent flutter behind me in the rearview mirror by flowing golden hair (undoubtedly fake; take my word for it) and the bluest eyes (real; this was well before tinted contacts came into vogue) into which I've ever had the privilege of staring. Distracted by a living doll, I was oblivious to the departure of my massive corpus of computer work, card by card. And, I was littering in the bargain...

On subsequent trips out to the park, I would occasionally see the telltale shape of a Hollerith card off in the verge of the highway right of way. I even stopped and retrieved one as a remembrance of the event, framing it as a reminder of the hours of labor it took to recreate the programming from the last printout (which providently had remained on my desk at work). Sort of a Paleolithic equivalent of a backup of your hard drive, if you will. For all I know, that weathered card is still sitting there framed on my old desk at the now-DVA, close to the massive ball of used staples that I removed over my tenure there.

Like Charles Foster Kane’s assistant Bernstein, I can say with certitude that there's scarcely a day (well, a month maybe) that goes by that I don't think of that girl, even though I only knew her for what amounted to a moment of my life. All I have to do is to hear the first few bars of that song, and suddenly, I can see her twirling through her big moment on stage, spinning parasol over the right shoulder, hem of the white shirtwaist lifting just so to showcase her gorgeous gams, all this as she worked her way towards an imagined theatrical career that no doubt led to a secretary’s job in New York City, secondwifedom with some silver fox of an ad executive on Madison Avenue, and a life in the Connecticut suburbs. And then, I start remembering Hollerith cards…

Oh well, ships that pass in the night and all that...and certainly a cautionary tale about the hazards of not "backing things up". I wonder if she has ever figured out why I got so upset over what were (in her words at the time) “just a bunch of cards”?

[sideC]

Ah....the price of romance. Uh, Terry, I think you got that last phrase wrong. It's "STONES that pass in the night."

Nyuk nyuk nyuk.

Good story!

Julian

[Gandalfe]

Oh my, a story full of allegories if I ever heard one. Some how I think you should get 'truck' in the title though.

A Cautionary Tale Of Love, a truck, Musical Magic, And Computer Programming Done The Old Way 8-)

[geauxsax]

. . ."And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
YAGE, YAGE against the dying of the light."

(apologies to Dylan Thomas):geezer2:

[Ed Svoboda]

I'm pretty much a micro computer guy. I started playing with computers when I was 10 or 12. Radio Shack TRS-80's. Growing up in the 80's it was all about TRS-80's, Commodore PETs, CBMs, Vic-20's, 64's, and 128's. I remember playing around with a Timex Sinclair.

My first computer was a TI99/4A.

I have used every version of DOS and at one point could tell you the enhancements made in the various releases.

[SteveSklar]

I'm pretty much a micro computer guy. I started playing with computers when I was 10 or 12. Radio Shack TRS-80's. Growing up in the 80's it was all about TRS-80's, Commodore PETs, CBMs, Vic-20's, 64's, and 128's. I remember playing around with a Timex Sinclair.

My first computer was a TI99/4A.

I have used every version of DOS and at one point could tell you the enhancements made in the various releases.

me too .. except add the Apples and macs to the mix too.
My first real computer was an Apple //e with a yellow screen with a CP/M card

[steen]

This may have been related before, but it bears unearthing a second time:

Backup Your Data…1970’s Style
A Cautionary Tale Of Love, Musical Magic, And Computer Programming Done The Old Way
By
Terry L. Stibal

...
You need to flesh this out in a script for a movie, Terry. All the ingredients are there. You will have to do away with them cards and find a more up to date programming language (says the ignorant). You are writing software for the FBI to fend of hackers employed by Al-Qeada. There is a three way thing going on and Barbie's significant other, Ken, who is paid by an Al-Queda cell. Barbie is attached to Ken from her childhood and doesn't know what leg to stand on, or rather what bed to sleep in. Of course she ends up on your side, but at the same time in grave danger in the final scene, where you finish off Ken, now aggravated for both professional and personal reasons, in a tsunami of blood. There have obviously been several (bloody tsunamis) beforehand, including one with Al-Queda members trying to kill you in car chase that distinguishes itself from the hundreds of others by your truck being a hybrid, ...insert bullet-sprays, bombs, innocent casualties in the thousands, etc. etc. The really difficult decision obviously comes to how you will portray the sex scenes, because you want it to be PG-13 (no amount of blood-shed will prevent that), so somehow we have to be forced watching sex between adults with all, or at least most, of their clothes on. Always makes me wonder what impression it leaves on the less than 13 year old crowd, but is probably just higher pitched groans at the stupidity. Anyway, some producer in Hollywood will make this decision for you based on the his need for cash to finance his most recent divorce settlement.

[Gandalfe]

My first computer was a TI99/4A.Mine too as TI dumped them on the market when they decided making computers was not profitable. I got the Texas Instruments 99/4A, more RAM, and extended hard drive for the price of the computer the month before circa '82. Then I automated my reports in the military and spent more time outta the office.