Age of clarinet

[Koopyetz]

Hello:

I have purchased a Yamaha 34 clarinet. Serial number 037035AII.

Can someone please let me know when it was made.

Thank you.

[SteveSklar]

you may best call Yamaha for that answer.

I don't have a Yamaha serial number list and I don't think they list one either.

[clarnibass]

I tried to find the age of a YCL-34II a while ago. After a long time someone from Yamaha finally answered that they can't know the the age based on the serial number. The YCL-34 was made between 1978 and 2001, that's the most I know.

[SteveSklar]

someone on another board or via email told me that Yamaha makes a bulk load of clarinet bodies. All stamped with serial numbers. They then draw from that stock. So serial numbers may be scattered through a certain time frame of when made versus when completed.

but in clarnibas example is a wide range of years ... so who knows.

[tictactux]

someone on another board or via email told me that Yamaha makes a bulk load of clarinet bodies. All stamped with serial numbers. They then draw from that stock. So serial numbers may be scattered through a certain time frame of when made versus when completed.

but in clarnibas example is a wide range of years ... so who knows.

Who says these are serial numbers and not just random gibberish to keep those clarinetists busy? :biggrin:
(The only purpose these numbers serve is to be able to tell which upper joint belongs to what lower joint, or what student the horn was lent to.)

[Koopyetz]

Thank you everyone for your replies.

[pete]

you may best call Yamaha for that answer.

I don't have a Yamaha serial number list and I don't think they list one either.

I tried to find the age of a YCL-34II a while ago. After a long time someone from Yamaha finally answered that they can't know the the age based on the serial number. The YCL-34 was made between 1978 and 2001, that's the most I know.
BTB, this is also more-or-less the case with the Yamaha student saxophone, the 23. With some of the Vito-stenciled horns, the serial number corresponds with a date, but Yamaha-labeled? It might ... or it might not.

FWIW, determining the age of a student horn -- and even some pro horns -- is really not that helpful. It might be nice trivia, but if I know that (for instance) a YCL-34 is a good horn (which it most definitely is, depending on condition), I don't really care how old it is.

[tictactux]

FWIW, determining the age of a student horn -- and even some pro horns -- is really not that helpful. It might be nice trivia, but if I know that (for instance) a YCL-34 is a good horn (which it most definitely is, depending on condition), I don't really care how old it is.
More important for the non-collector is probably the "service hours counter", not the chronological age.

[SteveSklar]

...... It might be nice trivia, but if I know that (for instance) a YCL-34 is a good horn (which it most definitely is, depending on condition), I don't really care how old it is.

Except depending upon the age there may be improvements in keywork, bore, etc over time. The Yamaha 34 is a fairly "modern" instrument compared to some other brands/models.

As an example, if you look at a Noblet 40 ... those go back to the 1940s and earlier. There have been improvements on bore, intonation and keywork over that time. One may feel more comfortable on a more modern variety versus one from 70 years ago .. or vice versa ..

With Yamaha they at least do 32, 34, 34II as their evolution

with Noblet 40 .. they only changed was the emblem over time to recognize (other than serial number) when it was approximately made

[pete]

Except depending upon the age there may be improvements in keywork, bore, etc over time. The Yamaha 34 is a fairly "modern" instrument compared to some other brands/models.

As an example, if you look at a Noblet 40 ... those go back to the 1940s and earlier. There have been improvements on bore, intonation and keywork over that time. One may feel more comfortable on a more modern variety versus one from 70 years ago .. or vice versa ..

With Yamaha they at least do 32, 34, 34II as their evolution

with Noblet 40 .. they only changed was the emblem over time to recognize (other than serial number) when it was approximately made
I should have known someone would mention this. I point, again, to the fact that I'm taking bunches of Schedule 5 narcotics (prescriptions!).

If you're talking about the overwhelming majority of horns marketed as student/intermediate, produced in the last 40 years or so, there is either NO change in the design, or not enough of one to write home about -- which is definitely the case with the Yamaha student/intermediate horns: a YCL-34 always looks like a YCL-34, unless it's a YCL-34II. (The Yamaha 23 saxophones could be made in Indonesia, depending on the serial number, I'll grant, but Yamaha owns the facility.)

Now, if we were talking about professional horns, most of them do have minor to major variations over the life of a single model. The most famous example is probably the Mark VI, where folks go gaga over 5-digit serial number horns because of some inherent greatness they're supposed to have (Selmer did change the horn, considerably, over the model run, but I've played several from different eras and they were all pretty good).

As far as "service counter hours" goes, you might have to elaborate on that, TTT: hours that it's been in the shop? A horn being sold as new, but has been sitting in the shop for years? In the former instance, I really don't think you could really determine that by the serial, unless the horn got returned to the manufacturer for repair and that's relatively rare. In the latter instance, I have heard of things like 20-year-old discontinued horns in-plastic, sold as new instruments -- and they are. They just need a bit of work. Sometimes a large bit. However, you should always playtest what you're gonna buy or at least have a warranty where you can exchange the instrument, for free, if it needs significant repair.

[Carl H.]

Pete, I believe the reference was as it relates to blowout of a wooden instrument - more likely to be blown out if it has many hours of playing time on the chronometer.

[pete]

Pete, I believe the reference was as it relates to blowout of a wooden instrument - more likely to be blown out if it has many hours of playing time on the chronometer.
I understand, but that's also not a great way of determining anything. Hey, I owned a Selmer Centered Tone in the 1980s and I thought it played OK. My wife has that spiffy Marigaux that's at least 40 years old and I've still got her Signet 100 that's about 30. They're decent.

FWIW, I never even heard about "blown out" -- i.e. the deterioration of wooden instruments in some way, shape or form that causes them to no longer play like they once did -- until we started this forum. Then again, I never really frequented clarinet forums.

[tictactux]

Pete, I believe the reference was as it relates to blowout of a wooden instrument - more likely to be blown out if it has many hours of playing time on the chronometer.
It's not about being "blown out", not in the wooden sense. But an instrument that has been played for say 10000 hours will inevitably show wear on keywork, pads, wood, whatever. Much of it can be compensated for in a good shop but there's always the question whether this will be a wise investment. No different than two cars, one with 10K miles, the other one with 200K miles on the odometer.

(I don't buy the "blown out" idea that floats the 'net. It's just a different way for saying "I'm getting tired of it", IMHO)

[SteveSklar]

Pete, I believe the reference was as it relates to blowout of a wooden instrument - more likely to be blown out if it has many hours of playing time on the chronometer.

I always forgot to reinstall the chronometer on clarinets .. matter of fact ... i don't recall ever seeing one.

For clarinets blownout references when and instrument may be dried out and it shrinks and the bore changes shape. I bought an R13 (my 51xxx 1955 R13) just like that. It was horrible. but then I gave it a nice oiling treatment and after several weeks (and i measured before and after) the bore went back to round after being oval in a dried state. The isntrument, with the same keywork/pads put back on played completely diffeerently (better) .. though still needed an overhaul.

saxes ... if the toneholes are flattened (whether it needs it or not) on each certain # of repair it can get to a point - depending upon the care being used - that the tonehole gets too low. Which affects the volume of the instrument but more importantly ..... the keywork could start clunking against the body. I've read about it though haven't seen it on saxes. They then would recommend getting it gold plated.

here's an example: http://www.ferreestools.com/jr_walkertenor.htm

[SteveSklar]

I...... so, there is either NO change in the design, or not enough of one to write home about -- which is definitely the case with the Yamaha student/intermediate horns: .......

of course Noblet started undercutting their toneholes in the 60s .. but nothing to write home about .. just advertise it !!
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Noblet/Noblet40Brochure1.jpg

i've checked earlier Noblets and those didn't have undercuts

each manufacturer is different over time. Yamaha changes the model number ... others may not
R13s have had evolutions over time on keywork. Even little things like a little bulb of hard teflon in the joint of the spatula C key to the LJ C key arm for smooth action versus cork or teflon sheet being there in the 1990s ... or just taller posts for better keywork action. The evolution of the clarinet from the really early days is small but constant. One wouldn't know this unless you have a generation of instruments going way back.

[RoBass]

One remark to technical development items used as an indicator of age: Some overhaulers do minor or major changes to the instrument according to the current state of the art (refit). Therefore a undercut tonehole or a delrin bush could be original or applied later. There's no possibility to eruate the source of such changes in most cases.-(

I found a one way only to assume, an instrument is older than xx years or done before year xx, if some items, mandatory for later year's models, aren't found. But the other way -to date later than a specific day- is not sure anyway.

This means not the serial number or other distinct marking/item like keywork design, hole pattern or global measurement. Means only items like not cylindrical bore, wider bore, tonhole undercut a.s.o. All of this could be applied with a later general overhaul...and without biunique trace.

kindly
Roman

[pete]

One remark to technical development items used as an indicator of age: Some overhaulers do minor or major changes to the instrument according to the current state of the art (refit).
I can accept this, to an extent. I understand that a tech might use different materials now than in 1950, but that can be beside the point: if you're looking at a horn, does it play perfectly? Great. No need to worry about the overhaul or when that overhaul was done.

Therefore a undercut tonehole or a delrin bush could be original or applied later.
I'll take your word for that. I'm not a tech.

... eruate ...
Que? What?

I found a one way only to assume, an instrument is older than xx years or done before year xx, if some items, mandatory for later year's models, aren't found.
That's what I did on saxpics.com, but I was only worried about pro horns. I'd also change "done" to "made".

This means not the serial number or other distinct marking/item like keywork design, hole pattern or global measurement. Means only items like not cylindrical bore, wider bore, tonhole undercut a.s.o. All of this could be applied with a later general overhaul...and without biunique trace.
First, I had never heard the word "biunique", so I Googled it. I'm not sure it applies in the above paragraph.

Second, I rather doubt that an overhaul of any instrument would have a bore change made in an overhaul. Changing a tone hole to undercut? I dunno; I'm not a tech and I don't know if that is ever done. Bore change would be changing the fundamental design of the horn, like putting it on a lathe.

[RoBass]

At first: Sorry for some miswording - English is not my mother's tongue. I speak German, Russian and a little bit English too ;-) Sometimes it's not so easy, to find the right vocabular...

I can accept this, to an extent. I understand that a tech might use different materials now than in 1950, but that can be beside the point: if you're looking at a horn, does it play perfectly? Great. No need to worry about the overhaul or when that overhaul was done.

No, I didn't mean this exactly. Some details are hints to a specific date, but if they are found in an instrument, it's not guaranteed, that this instrument was made after the first implemention of this detail. F.i. a synthetic bush in a 200 years old clarinet could not be installed in the manufacturers lifetime - but later by an overhauler because the original bus were defect or loss ;-) Therefore it's not possible to conclude directly from the bush to the age... On the other hand, such an item could induce to think about a modern copy or rebuild instead of a vintage original.

Que? What?ok, see language remark above: take it for "investigate" ;-)

First, I had never heard the word "biunique", so I Googled it. I'm not sure it applies in the above paragraph.Hmmh, I would guess, that's the right word. It means a one and only way conclusion direction (typical in mathematics for non reversible concluded facts, German word is: eineindeutig). How to formulate more correct?

Second, I rather doubt that an overhaul of any instrument would have a bore change made in an overhaul. Changing a tone hole to undercut? I dunno; I'm not a tech and I don't know if that is ever done. Bore change would be changing the fundamental design of the horn, like putting it on a lathe.Yes of course. That's true definitely. But I know from some clarinet manufacturers, that they fix known lacks of instruments with some technical modification (add. keywork f.i.). Older Amatis sometimes were corrected by modifying toneholes and other details to bring it into a good (no, better;-) tune and intonation. But this modifcations you can't figure out without a detailed knowledge about the original instrument's condition. I know this problem very well from double basses, where some overhaulers changed the former configurations without any remark or other hints to the customer.
It's very difficult to decide between original and modified status and to conclude the age or provenience, because you are confused by the details. Specialists like you or Steve or anybody else with this knowledge skill can do so, but a less experienced buyer could mistaken completely by such later modifications.
As I said before: it's only a hint to keep in mind, that occuring details could be from different sources, not more. This statement has no validity at all!

kindly
Roman



PS: One example: Some month ago I got a clarinet from the earlier 20th century. We expected an age of appr. 50-60 years, but a specialist dated to 1910 and or little bit later. It was a question of details, and he knowed original instruments of this type - without plastic spare parts f.i. ;-) He could expect more correct than we, because he was informed about the occuring discrepancies. I was not - and guessed appr. 50 years wrong (half the real age!;-)

[SteveSklar]

as a tech sees more and more clarinets over time they are able to more closely see identifiers and determin it's age.

For example:
- Toneholes that are not cut and are flush with the body, including the curvature of the body. This clearly is not Modern but can still be in the 1900s. Example would be a 1915ish Buffet
- Tonehole chimneys that are more flush with the "body tube" including side of the tonehole which arc with the body. Example: mid to late 1800s Buffets.
- Use of Flat Springs more consistently through the clarinet. Example: early Buffets used mostly flat springs (and most other manufacturers), as time went on they evolved to mostly needle springs. Buffets still used alot of flat springs until the late 1950s.
- of course, if one has enough models of a partifular brand of clarinet one can see the evolution of keywork design too. Taller posts, and taller tonehole chimneys, and thus longer throw keywork .. or keywork getting more robust over time. Even how they cut the cork slots on the tenons.

You can see some examples of these on
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clsnBuffet.htm

[pete]

Stuff.
Even more stuff.
The point I was trying to make is that you're probably not going to go through the amount of overhaul effort you've described on a student or intermediate model horn, because it'd be cheaper for the owner to buy a new instrument.

Further, if you're trying to determine the age of a completely unknown instrument, I think you look at the overall details first: keywork, tonehole type and placement, etc. and you make a preliminary statement based on that -- that's what I do on unknown sax makes and models. I accept that. However, I also submit that all an overhaul could tell you is a) how long ago it was done and b) how good of an overhaul it is. The proof of how good it is would be how well the horn plays.

Again, if we were talking about a professional model, we would want to go through the effort of looking at all the minutae because we really want to date the horn accurately: was that R13 made in 1960 or 1990? It makes a significant difference to determine the correct value. Student/intermediate? The average value of a 1978 YCL-34 in good shape is about the same as a 2001 YCL-34 in good shape.

Biunique: being a correspondence between two sets that is one-to-one in both directions (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/biunique). In other words, I'm confused because I don't understand which sets you're comparing and/or the relationship you're trying to describe. As an example, a 1960 horn could have an overhaul in 1965 and then not be touched until 2010. You may be able to determine that the horn is at least 45 years old if and only if an overhaul technique was discontinued in 1965.

[SteveSklar]

Biunique'ing the benign ....

[RoBass]

In other words, I'm confused because I don't understand which sets you're comparing and/or the relationship you're trying to describe. As an example, a 1960 horn could have an overhaul in 1965 and then not be touched until 2010. You may be able to determine that the horn is at least 45 years old if and only if an overhaul technique was discontinued in 1965.

One (free) example: a clarinet with a technical detail, first presented 1980, could be an older model, modified during an overhaul in the 80s. But a bore pattern of the early 20s with a model assumed to 1980 would be uncommon (if we know about a pattern change in the mid 50s). Therefore we can't estimate 100% sure dating in both directions.

Your opinion regarding the amount relations for low cost clarinets I would accomplish.

kindly
Roman

[SteveSklar]

One (free) example: a clarinet with a technical detail, first presented 1980, could be an older model, modified during an overhaul in the 80s. But a bore pattern of the early 20s with a model assumed to 1980 would be uncommon (if we know about a pattern change in the mid 50s). Therefore we can't estimate 100% sure dating in both directions.

Your opinion regarding the amount relations for low cost clarinets I would accomplish.

kindly
Roman

my mastery of english isn't good enough to understand what you just said.

If an old bodied instrument bore is modified significantly then the intonation probably is way off ... which would make it fairly useless for common use.

If the keywork was replaced with modern keywork, then they would probably have to plug in the old keywork holes.

Modifications like this would make the instrument virtually worthless in an open market ... and thus it's true age virtually to the point of "who cares".