Bass or Bb Sop Clarinet? or Sax?

[RoBass]

Hi,
I need a little advise regarding a MPC. It looks like a saxophone MPC, but has diemsnsions, tenon and bore like for a Boehm clarinet. The chamber is non cubic and with some remarkable steps inside. The mouth opens wide from the table to the tip. The outer form is done like a sax MPC with a recess and not so straight like for clarinet. Length and diameter fit to clarinet, but wideness of the mouth at the tip is too large for a clarinet reed (appr. 3mm broader). What's that MPC?
Is this done for a bass clarinet, or is there any sax for such insertable MPCs? I only know saxes with MPCs to put with the bore on a tenon, but not with a tenon itself.

Please help me to identify! I'm not familar with saxes ;-)

kindly
Roman

[Carl H.]

Pictures go a long way in helping to identify a mouthpiece.

[RoBass]

Yes, would be, but there's a camera needed ;-) I own neither a digital camera nor cellphone including one... But it seems to be a bass clarinet mouthpiece (google shows some similar pics for, but non for saxes).
How wide is a bass clarinet MPC at the tip (appr. of course;-)?

kindly
Roman

[tictactux]

if it has a corked tenon but is larger than a standard Bb mouthpiece but has roughly the shape of a Sax piece, then it might be an Alto Clarinet mouthpiece; these have the same reed width as alto Saxes.

http://www.richardhawkinsmouthpiece.com/img/cov1/11.jpg

[pete]

How wide is a bass clarinet MPC at the tip (appr. of course;-)?
It varies by the manufacturer. As an example, I have a Sigurd Rascher bari 'piece that is considerably larger than most bass 'pieces. Contrabass clarinet reeds aren't wide enough for this mouthpiece.

[RoBass]

Hi tictactux, yes it looks like your's. The length overall is a little bit less than my Bb-MPCs. But reeds with french cut are to small at least 3mm at the tip. There's a visible gap on both sides.

Ok, than should be alto or bass. How to decide between this both systems?

kindly
Roman



PS: Regarding another thread I updated my profile. Sorry for the bad and sometimes misworded English, it's not my main language ;-)

[saxplayer1004]

If you're a sax player, take an alto sax reed and stick it on there, if it fits it's most likely an alto clarinet mouthpiece. If a tenor sax reed fits, then it's a bass clarinet mouthpiece. I don't have actual dimensions on hand, but a Bb clarinet mouthpiece will almost fit inside of a bass clarinet mouthpiece

[SOTSDO]

One additional factor here is that the original poster is resident in Northern Germany. Generally speaking, German clarinet mouthpieces (at least all of the soprano ones plus the few bass ones that I have seen) are considerably smaller than their French-style "Boehm/Klosé" counterparts. Thus, a German bass mouthpiece would size out between a French alto and bass, rather than being the same size as a French bass.

(Saxophone mouthpieces are another matter. While you can occasionally run into a "pickle" mouthpiece for the larger horns, rubber alto and tenor mouthpieces generally are going to be the same size. Well, unless Sante Runyon happens to be involved.)

If nothing else, it's another factor to consider. What would be wonderful here is a photograph or two, along with the type of clarinet (German or French) that the original poster is playing.

[RoBass]

No no, that's not a problem with Boehm-models in Germany ;-) I'm a strictly Boehm-player, and I'm not alone here.

But this MPC's tenon has standard Bb-Boehm-measurement. Yesterday I went to a dealer's shop and compared MPCs for Bass and Alto clarinets. There's no congruency, because all MPCs for alto/bass had larger diameters at tenon (we checked german and french models both).
The dealer assumed, that it could be an older jazz MPC from a known but seldom series - for clarinet of course. Sax reeds will fit one side, and clarinet body the other. But I don't know, how to play this MPC well. The angle would come so close to 90°, that's uncomfortable at most ;-(

Now I'll search a sax player and beg him to test it ;-)

kindly
Roman

[pete]

Well, if it's got a "tenon" with rubber, it's not a sax mouthpiece. I do seem to remember that some misguided company did make a clarinet mouthpiece to sax mouthpiece adapter, but that's about it.

The "tenon" would define which instrument it fits.

IIRC -- and you'll have to check for the discussion that's here -- the Linton Contralto clarinet mouthpieces were very odd. I dunno if a bassett clarinet or bassett horn has a significantly different-sized mouthpiece than an alto clarinet, but that's also an option. The octavin and taragato also have single-reed mouthpieces that look like clarinet mouthpieces, from what I've seen, at least: see http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=288&d=1264731720.

Hey, post a picture with some measurements and we might be able to help out more!

[clarnibass]

I dunno if a bassett clarinet or bassett horn has a significantly different-sized mouthpiece than an alto clarinet, but that's also an option.
Assuming "regular" instruments (i.e. not historical or copies which need specific mouthpieces), basset clarinet mouthpiece is the same as a soprano clarinet mouthpiece and basset horn can use either a soprano or an alto clarinet mouthpiece depends on model.

[RoBass]

Ok, pics I can do Thursday earliest ;-/ Then I'll send them immediately.

But regarding the measures: the tenon is 1:1 comparable to a standard french bore and tenon diameter. The length of the tenon is the same to, and the overall length of the MPC is 3mm less than a Bb-Rico B5.
This mysterious MPC could be installed well fitted to a Bb clarinet. It's looking like the MPC shown by tictactux exactly - and with a standard french tenon dimension.-) But the ligature of a Bb clarinet is to small for.

The opening is above 2mm and the rail length appr. 30mm. Today I will measure the details and post them.

kindly
Roman

[saxplayer1004]

I have a Jody Espina Bb clarinet mouthpiece that has
a smaller overall diameter than a normal Bb clarinet mouthpiece-normal ligs won't fit
has a beak like a saxophone-bizarre looking mouthpiece, but it works.

Soprano sax reeds fit better width wise...

[RoBass]

Ok, here's the measurement:

- length overall 86,3mm
- tenon diameter 21,2mm
- tenon length 15,5mm
- bore 14,8mm
- inner width of window at tip 14,3mm
- outer width of rails at tip 16mm
- window length 36mm
- table width at tenon start 12mm
- max. reed length 70mm
- baffle length appr. 24mm (aft end of window and baffle rounded)
- max. outer diemater 25,8mm
- length of conical outer diameter from tenon recess to step appr. 37mm

Form follows the picture of tictactux. Any idea?

kindly
Roman


PS: My original Rico Royal B5 has a tenon diameter of 22mm and a bore of 14,9/15,0mm. Tenon length is appr. 17mm. That looks like nearly the same measurement ;-/

[RoBass]

Ok, intermediate update: Photos I couldn't do yet ;-/ But I installed a tenor sax reed on - and it works! The tenor reed seems to be 1mm wider than the rails and appr. 12mm longer than necessary (exceeds the tenon recess). But the cut off and profile fits well to the curve of the rails.
It plays well with a smooth saxophone-like embouchure, but is very sensitive against harder clarinet-like lip positions ;-)
The sound is nearly as described before - hard, jazzy and very loud. It's open like a sax and needs neither pressure nor volume like the clarinet pendants.
Interesting thing ;-)

Correct intonation is not so easy for me, but I'm not a sax expert ;-))

@Steve: Do you have some more ionformation about the mentioned 50s or 60s jazz MPC in sax form?

kindly
Roman


PS: I inspected the manufacturing traces very well. There's no hint, that this MPC had larger tenon before. It was not machined visible later than the manufacturing process and bore was not sleeved. Therefore I assume an original measurement at all.

[RoBass]

Ok, here are some pics of the mentioned mouthpiece. It's photographed besides a Rico Royal B5 standard MPC to show dimensions and differences.
Please comment!

kindly
Roman


http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9860/10014125685803.th.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/i/10014125685803.jpg/) http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3367/10014115681175.th.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/10014115681175.jpg/) http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8858/10014085675668.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/i/10014085675668.jpg/) http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/5946/10014075671662.th.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/10014075671662.jpg/) http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5586/10014065667287.th.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/10014065667287.jpg/)
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4046/10014055660545.th.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/10014055660545.jpg/) http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6500/10014045653620.th.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/10014045653620.jpg/) http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7401/10014135649144.th.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/10014135649144.jpg/)

[Carl H.]

Definitely not a bass mouthpiece, I can tell you that much for sure!

I'm thinking alto clarinet.

[saxplayer1004]

no way it should accept tenor reeds without hanging off. With a curved facing it may be for a basset clarinet or something. May a dedicated A clarinet mouthpiece or a german bore?

[RoBass]

Oh, I forgot a comment: Photographs show a standard French cut reed on - Arundos Manon. Therefore you can see the resulting gap as best.

kindly
Roman

[saxplayer1004]

alto clarinet. Stick an alto sax reed on there, should fit like a glove

[SOTSDO]

I (shudder) concur. It looks like an alto clarinet mouthpiece for a French system instrument. (Has anyone ever made a German "Oehler" system alto? Or, do they have more sense in my homeland than that?)

[RoBass]

But I inspected alto- and bass-clarinet MPCs in the store - for French and for German bore. Both of them were wider bored than my MPC. Has anyone the typical bore (tenon intake) diameters of bass and alto clarinet MPCs? I couldn't find it in the web yet ;-(

Please take a look onto this site - bore diameters: http://www.henriselmerparis.com/clarinets/specifications.php (all altos/basses significant wider than 14,8mm).

In our home board they expected, this MPC could be a saxophone MPC postmilled to fit the clarinet barrel. I found for this the inner diameter should be 16,4mm or 16,8mm, isn't so? But is 14,8mm without any sleeve inside.

kindly
Roman


PS: Tenorsax reeds fit well (only to large in the length), alto's I couldn't get at the moment. But I will test it furthermore.

[tictactux]

Once upon a time I had an Uebel Bass clarinet (German system). Its mouthpiece was the size of a standard(ish) French Alto clarinet mouthpiece. So I wouldn't be surprised if eg a German Alto piec was smaller than a French one as well..

[SOTSDO]

The German made mouthpieces that I have seen all have the randing (grooves) cut to hold the string ligature around where the French mouthpieces would seat their ligature. No such grooves in evidence here, though.

[Carl H.]

The German made mouthpieces that I have seen all have the randing (grooves) cut to hold the string ligature around where the French mouthpieces would seat their ligature. No such grooves in evidence here, though.
I've got an authentic German A clarinet mouthpiece with no grooves. Yes, it is specific to a German system A clarinet and not playable on a standard Buffet Bb or A. While the grooves would help identification, lack of grooves is not definitive.

[RoBass]

Most modern MPCs for German bore do not show these mentioned grooves. Some of them are "unisex" models with French/German properties both and with smooth surface for metal ligatures. Outer measurement is French mostly (Zinner blanks f.i.). Some vintage models own these grooves, but not the modern at all.

But it would be very uncommon to find a German MPC with "jazzed" design. Most of them are selled to philharmonic and more traditional musicians. Therefore a French style would be more typical.

kindly
Roman

[SOTSDO]

The Van Dorn company sells a grooved mouthpiece line; I was able to get one for my Oehler horn. They come in two different tenon diameters.

[SteveSklar]

wow looks like a sax mpc where they turned down the shank and made if for a clarinet. Notice the step baffle and rounded window. The step baffle would play havoc on clarinet intonation.

[SOTSDO]

I can see a scenario where this may have come about:

1) Saxophone player decides to get into the high profit line of clarinet playing, on his own, without any teacher/mentor intervention

2) Erstwhile saxophone player discovers, to his chagrin, that his classic saxophonic embouchure does not function well on the clarinet

3) Player decides to take matters into his own hands, thinking that the problem must lay in the choice of the wrong mouthpiece, a common enough saxophone player belief for anything having to do with the tone

4) Player decides that, if XYZ brand 'piece works well on his sax, it would probably work as well on a clarinet if only it could be made to fit

5) Player has access to a friend with an electric motor and a big enough chuck

6) Friend, rolling his eyes the while, turns down the shank, cuts the groove for the cork, and hands it over.

7) Player tries his new mouthpiece for about thirty seconds, then decides to recover some of the initial investment by selling it on the secondary market

[SteveSklar]

In Reverse .... just like that old metal selmer clarinet mpc with the shank refabricated for a soprano sax from last year. I can't recall whose that was but I'm sure someone here knows.

[RoBass]

We measured the bore - and the way sax-lathe-clarinet came a tale ;-) We didn't find any sax MPC to drill/mill a MPC of this dimensions from.
One way a bore-sleeve would be mandatory (but it isn't a sleeve inside, it's homogenous), the other way a smaller MPC for a sax would be necessary (but such a small MPC for sax we couldn't find too).
Will be a mystery in future still...

kindly
Roman


PS: MPC was tested now by 2 sax players and 2 clarinetists (all of them skilled experts). Both decided to attest a good intonation (not expected before due to the strange geometry) and loudness like a sax. Was interesting to hear about - from pros.