Alto vs. Tenor Vibrato

[Gandalfe]

This recent post: http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=751 got me thinking, once again, about vibrato.

Here's a quick clip of the alto (sorry for the excessive vibrato -- ha -- I'm not really an alto player these days):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2j03oNjOKM

Note: I didn't think there was too much vibrato in this recording.

My son visited us this weekend (he's in Utah working on his MBA) and we were noodling through some duets on alto sax. He noted that I vibrato'd too much and that many players only vibrato at the end of say a half note pitch. I talked to one of my instructors and he said it really depends upon what you are playing. He gave examples of people and bands using vibrato most of the time both in the Jazz and Classical genre. But he did note that often certain music like duets were best done with very little if any vibrato.

Then I saw MyMartinTenor's post and listen to him play. His sound was very phatt like that of a tenor compared to other alto sax players I've heard. And I got to thinking that maybe tenor and alto sax players vibrato in a different manner? Maybe high notes don't sound as good with excessive vibrato whereas when playing an instrument like the tenor might tend to sound better with more vibrato. Thoughts?

[MyMartinTenor]

Thanks for your kind words. FWIW, I still hear too much vibrato in that clip. But my "alto player" comment wasn't really about quantity of vibrato as much as control. I didn't sound really solidly in control of my vibrato in that clip, IME, which was the source of my comment. On tenor, bari, and soprano, I have a much better contol over the instrument, and can monitor and adjust it more easily. Alto is a different beast for me, control-wise.

But, back to your original point -- there has been a real trend in the last 10-15 years toward a largely vibrato-less sound on saxophone, maybe with some coming in toward the end of a held note. IMO, this comes from two things: (1) a backlash against an "old school" Hodges sound with lots of vibrato, and (2) an emphasis on section playing, rather than solo playing, where the whole section has to sound uniform, and its easier to sound consistent in a section playing flat than playing with vibrato (hence the "duets" example from your post).

I have wondered how far this can/will go. Many players now take as "gospel" that the sound should be flat except as your son suggested --- but why in the world is that gospel, particularly for a solo player?? I hear a further lack of expressiveness in many areas of playing -- how many mouthpiece ads feature "uniformity of sound between the registers" as a key selling point? Was Getz's sound uniform across the registers (answer: not even close! Bright up top, nice darkness in the middle).

We've seen the rise of bright sounds (Brecker) and now the re-emergence of "dark" as a trend (everyone wants a "dark" sound now). But what has been lost in that spectrum, IMO, is expressiveness.

Well controlled vibrato is one aspect of expressive playing. The player's ability to alter their tonal colors is another "expressiveness" feature. And there are many more. I hope that individual expressiveness will be the next "fad" that everyone is looking for -- and I suspect that it would usher in a new world of options for tasteful (and maybe not so tasteful) vibrato applications.

Ok, done with my rant now.

Back to your question again -- I don't think this has to do with tenor versus alto versus soprano versus bari (although for my sound I generally prefer more vibrato on the bigger horns, generally, and almost none on soprano). Its about what you're trying to SAY with the vibrato, regardless of horn.

[SteveSklar]

I use vibrato as an expressionism, to colorize the tone. But i will vary it depending upon the music and the piece that I'm playing. So I have no answer !!

As an example, on a long held note in a blues type piece I may, more often than not, will use a slow and shallow vibrato transitioning to a fast and deep vibrato. But of course it varies on the music being played and what "fits" Of course, the what "fits" varies upon one's interpretation.

On duets/ trios etc I prefer the two instruments/players to be in tune with each other, thus vibrato isn't necessary to cover anything up. but use vibrato as needed for colorization.

Interesting note though, that in an orchestra vibrato is normal for strings for what seems to be most of the time, but not the clarinets.

[tictactux]

Interesting note though, that in an orchestra vibrato is normal for strings for what seems to be most of the time, but not the clarinets.
I think, sometimes it's overdone on the strings. I see musicians and think of a heavy case of Parkinson. It tends to dilute the pureness of the colour of the tone and at the same time adds neon colours to the tone. Can work fine for a final chord or a held note at the end of a phrase, but always...?
I admit, it's a style thing, and what tradition you were raised in. Less is more in my opinion, but there's a piece every now and then that can use a lot of cheesiness.

[Carl H.]

Interesting note though, that in an orchestra vibrato is normal for strings for what seems to be most of the time, but not the clarinets.
I think, sometimes it's overdone on the strings. I see musicians and think of a heavy case of Parkinson. It tends to dilute the pureness of the colour of the tone and at the same time adds neon colours to the tone. Can work fine for a final chord or a held note at the end of a phrase, but always...?
I admit, it's a style thing, and what tradition you were raised in. Less is more in my opinion, but there's a piece every now and then that can use a lot of cheesiness.
Most string players DO use too much vibrato, in fact some cannot turn their vibrato off. I've got lists of players who I refuse to hire, and a few I refuse to play near when it is somebody else's gig.

Some folks like too much and there is no changing them.

[jbtsax]

Vibrato is a function of the style (and tempo) of the music being played, not the size or even type of instrument. A concept of vibrato on the saxophone, flute, or trumpet when playing classical music is far different from the concept(s) used when playing pop, rock, jazz and non-musical forms such as "new age".

As far as Carl's comment goes---everyone knows that string players use too much vibrato to cover up their poor intonation. :)

John

[Helen]

To me vibrato is also a function of the times, which goes along with the notion of style of music being performed. We can probably all think of examples of recordings of musicians during the roaring 20s, where a wide vibrato was all the rage. If we were to perform that music today with authenticity, we would duplicate that style of vibrato for the sake of the music.

My use of vibrato changes from shallow to deep to terminal to none (most common given what I play nowadays) given the setting I'm working in. I think as musicians we have to have a working knowledge of all the different types and styles of vibrato; when to use them; and just as importantly, when to not use them.

I see vibrato much like I see fashion: changing regularly in style and trends.

[Gandalfe]

Helen, based on your list of types of vibrato I see I have some work to do. That is not unusual by the way as I'm a hobbyist who doesn't practice enough.

Can you explain what you meant by terminal vibrato?

[pete]

"Terminal vibrato" is the maximum speed that a saxophone player can reach after being thrown out a 10th floor window for playing too wide a vibrato.

:P

[Carl H.]

"Terminal vibrato" is the maximum speed that a saxophone player can reach after being thrown out a 10th floor window for playing too wide a vibrato.

:P
I thought it was the speed you had to be when hitting them with your car so that they clear the windshield and roof.

:rolleyes:

[pete]

That's an easy way to ruin a good paint job.

[Helen]

Can you explain what you meant by terminal vibrato?

"Terminal vibrato" is the maximum speed that a saxophone player can reach after being thrown out a 10th floor window for playing too wide a vibrato.

:P

Good one! I like that! :lol: But not quite what I meant...

I thought it was the speed you had to be when hitting them with your car so that they clear the windshield and roof.

:rolleyes:

Like that one too, :twisted: but not exactly what I meant either.

What I mean by terminal vibrato is a one added towards the end of a sustained note. For it to be classified as "terminal", it should be at added at least 1/2 way through the sustained tone.

[MartinMods]

Vibrato is an ornamentation of the tone, not the tone itself. Though certain styles tended to use it constantly, I think good contemporary players use it with a great deal more discretion. I like Helen's "terminal vibrato" on alto, but it really bugs me when I hear myself doing it on tenor.

[martinm]

I use vibrato as an expressionism, to colorize the tone. But i will vary it depending upon the music and the piece that I'm playing. So I have no answer !!

As an example, on a long held note in a blues type piece I may, more often than not, will use a slow and shallow vibrato transitioning to a fast and deep vibrato. But of course it varies on the music being played and what "fits" Of course, the what "fits" varies upon one's interpretation.

On duets/ trios etc I prefer the two instruments/players to be in tune with each other, thus vibrato isn't necessary to cover anything up. but use vibrato as needed for colorization.

Interesting note though, that in an orchestra vibrato is normal for strings for what seems to be most of the time, but not the clarinets.

I have a book on clarinet playing written by Jack Brymer, a prominent 20th century British clarinetist. In his chapter on intonation he actually recommends the use of vibrato to mask intonation problems. I'm a aware it can be done, but found it shocking he would admit it.

[MartinMods]

British clarinet players have used vibrato in classical playing. The French, American, and German schools avoid it generally.

[tictactux]

British clarinet players have used vibrato in classical playing. The French, American, and German schools avoid it generally.
I attended the "whatever rocks your boat but use common sense and consideration" school. :-)

[martinm]

"Terminal vibrato" is the maximum speed that a saxophone player can reach after being thrown out a 10th floor window for playing too wide a vibrato.

:P
Terminal vibrato is vibrato that never stops. It goes right on through every note in a phrase, 8th notes, 16th notes, it never stops, it's terminal. Many sax instructors teach vibrato that never stops. That type of vibrato is out of style even for string players.

[pete]

I have a book on clarinet playing written by Jack Brymer, a prominent 20th century British clarinetist. In his chapter on intonation he actually recommends the use of vibrato to mask intonation problems. I'm a aware it can be done, but found it shocking he would admit it.
Hmm. Maybe that's the reason saxophone players are taught to use vibrato.

I'm actually relatively serious about that.

What are the instruments that you think of when you think of a pronounced vibrato? Strings and saxophones. Sometimes clarinet, but most clarinet players -- at least, non-jazz/big band players -- use vibrato sparingly enough that it's worth a comment when you do hear vibrato. Based on experience, I know that brass players use vibrato, particularly on long tones, but I don't remember hearing many comments about that.

On sax, I probably use 1/2 as much vibrato as your average player because I think vibrato can get you to sound like the Guy Lombardo sax section too quickly. However, when I see a held note, musically I should do something with it, even if it's just crescendo or decrescendo.

Vocalists also use vibrato. I also think that one could make the argument that you use the vibrato to mask intonation issues, especially as few people have perfect pitch or even relative pitch.

[Helen]

Terminal vibrato is vibrato that never stops. It goes right on through every note in a phrase, 8th notes, 16th notes, it never stops, it's terminal. Many sax instructors teach vibrato that never stops. That type of vibrato is out of style even for string players.

I'm not sure where you got that definition from, but it doesn't jive with conventional music definitions. From Developing A Personal Saxophone Sound, by David Liebman on page 39:


The specifics of the vibrato cycle are speed (frequency) and intensity of vibrations (range). These variables should be used with great flexibility and a sense of variety which will enhance the personality and character of a phrase. For example, a note can begin with a straight tone, work its way into a slow vibrato and conclude with a wider cycle, called progressive vibrato. Or vibrato can be applied only towards the end of a tone; this is called terminal vibrato. (Emphasis added.) It is quite effective to enhance a long descrendo on one tone, with a slow-down vibrato.

[Gandalfe]

Thanks Helen. As my instructors recognized the definition you document, I was worried that we'd gotten it wrong based on MartinM's post.

[jbtsax]

I believe it is very important to make the distinction between a classical style and concept of vibrato and a jazz style. There is some overlap of course, but each style has distinct characteristics of its own.

That said, in very general terms the classical vibrato has a tendency to be more continuous and in jazz a straight tone is embellished with a vibrato increasing in intensity toward the end. The French school of classical playing has tended toward a wider and faster vibrato, perhaps due to the influence of Marcel Mule.

It has been my observation that to get the "new age" sound some modern players have gone full circle back to the very fast more constant vibrato to give that "sparkle" to their sound. The important thing about vibrato is that it is a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

Another "over generalization" is that classical players try to achieve a sound characteristic of "classical saxophone playing". Jazz players on the other hand use every means at their disposal to sound different from everyone else---to find their own distinct voice and sound. This is why I believe it is important to make the distinction between classical and jazz/pop/rock styles when discussion all aspects of playing---especially vibrato.

[Helen]

Thanks for raising the issue of classical vibrato jbt. I was thinking of doing so along the way, and bringing in the whole Larry Teal thing a number of times, but decided against it. My classical days are nearly 20 years behind me, and I've managed to suppress those memories.;-) I was afraid I'd have to dig into the recesses of my mind and try to find them. You've saved me! Thanks from the rocker on the board. :lol:

[hakukani]

String sections sound 'phatter' with vibrato because they aren't perfectly 'in tune'. Back before samplers, if I wanted a string 'pad' to sound more 'authentic' I would record multiple instances of the string track, and time shift and detune them slightly. Same effect.

What you are calling 'terminal' vibrato, I have always called 'automatic pilot' vibrato.

Different styles, even within jazz, call for different kinds of vibrato. If I'm playing a Fletchor Henderson arrangement, I'll use a fast, thin vibrato. If I'm playing a Kenton arrangement, no vibrato. Only by listening and copying the style can you be stylistically correct.

When you're playing your own thing, use your own aesthetic. For me, it's copying my favorite vocalists.

[tictactux]

When you're playing your own thing, use your own aesthetic. For me, it's copying my favorite vocalists.
I hope that this doesn't include yodellers. :mrgreen:

[clarnibass]

and non-musical forms such as "new age".
What about musical forms such as "new age"? :)

[hakukani]

I hope that this doesn't include yodellers. :mrgreen:


Only Leon Thomas--he yodels just a bit.