Advice please!

[akame]

Hi

I'm a beginner at clarinet, and bought a Lark clarinet 2nd hand. It was OK to see whether I was going to get a note, but my tutor says if I need to progress, I need something better (and I agree!).

Here is where I need the advice!!

One of his pupils has an old Boosey & Hawkes Emporer wooden clarinet for sale, which I believe is dated around 1975. It is in lovely condition (looks hardly used), but I am concerned about paying £250 for something that may need servicing. My other option is a good deal on a new Andino wooden clarinet, which retails for approx £900 down to just under £500. Alternatively, a new student resin Andino for £350. I'm wondering whether I really need wooden at the moment, or whether the best advice would be to go for the best I can afford. Would I be better going for student Buffet or Yamaha? I'm thinking if I upgrade in the future, I may get a better trade in.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Many thanks

[tictactux]

I wouldn't try to judge different clarinets sight unheard (sic)...

I admit that I have an inclination towards, uhm, vintage instruments that stood the test of time. I'd probably go for the Boosey, provided I had the chance to give it a whirl.

And even a brand new clarinet might require a short tune-up at the local repair centre just to make sure nothing went askew during shipping and all, so you might want to earmark another fifty-ish quid regardless of vintage and make.

Re Buffet and Yamaha - they may represent a better resale value, but you pay for that with a higher initial investment. On the other hand, you get proven quality, maybe at a premium price.

(For what it's worth, my best allround instrument ever was (and still is) a $29 wooden Vito VSP (which is a Noblet Artist twin).

Whatever you do, don't forget to get a decent mouthpiece. Good student mouthpieces (Behn Ouverture, Fobes Debut, Hite Premiere) cost less than $40 and are probably the best short-term investment you can do, regardless of your current instrument.

[jbtsax]

Assuming your instructor is a knowledgeable clarinetist it would be a good idea to follow his advice and recommendation since he could see and play the instrument firsthand.

A plastic clarinet with pads in good condition and a good student mouthpiece (Fobes Debut) would be perfectly suitable for a beginning student through the first 2 or 3 years of instruction.

The Buffet E11, Yamaha, or even Vito (Leblanc) are good student clarinets to begin on.

[pete]

Please also take a look at http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=385.

Welcome to the forum!

[akame]

Thank you everyone.

Pete - useful link. I think then the Boosey is probably a no go! As I can't get a note in the second register as yet (I've ordered some slightly harder reeds), I cannot give the Boosey the test I probably need to decide. I have only been playing for approx 3 months, although I can read music.

The Andino will be set up professionally before I get it, and will come with a warranty. That for me is a good start. If I can't get notes, then I know it will be me, not the instrument. I will never be sure with the Boosey.

I know my instructor thinks I should go for the new wooden Andino. One question about mouthpieces though - I am a very petite female and do have a small mouth. Do I need to take this into account with mouthpieces?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I would rather ask and look stupid before I spend my money, rather than after when it is too late!

Many thanks

[jbtsax]

Mouthpieces come in a one size fits all. You should have no trouble unless you switch to Contra Alto Clarinet.

[pete]

Mouthpieces come in a one size fits all.
Well, more-or-less. You're just not going to see/feel that significant of a difference unless, as JBT says, you switch to a lower clarinet (basset clarinet, basset horn, alto clarinet, etc.).

Again, note that link I mention above. There's a thread there regarding good clarinet mouthpieces to get. I can also tell you that a good mouthpiece is going to make you want to practice more and that means you'll become a better player.

[SOTSDO]

If you are on the "petite" side all the way around, then I would vote for a Vito horn. These have smaller tone holes, and were the horn of choice when I had female students with the "squeaks".

Once a student had mastered basic clarinet playing (including proper finger positioning and movement, it was time to step up to a "regular" horn with normal sized finger holes.

Mind you, I'm the guy who bleeds little Selmer logos when cut - you have no idea how hard it was for me to recommend a Leblanc product. Not a problem these days, though - now that the Conn "one big happy family" owns the two formerly competitive marques...

[pete]

... Of course, if you have really small fingers, you might want to look into a plateau clarinet. This is a normal clarinet that has covers over the tone holes. Linky (http://band-orchestra.musiciansfriend.com/product/Vito-7214P-Plateau-Key-Bb-Clarinet?sku=467239). It's a student-model Vito, as well.

[tictactux]

... Of course, if you have really small fingers, you might want to look into a plateau clarinet. This is a normal clarinet that has covers over the tone holes. Linky (http://band-orchestra.musiciansfriend.com/product/Vito-7214P-Plateau-Key-Bb-Clarinet?sku=467239). It's a student-model Vito, as well.
Hmm. Not even kids use these, and they do have tiny fingers and tiny hands. Plateau clarinets are perfect for handicapped, and beneficial for sax players with notoriously imprecise finger movement...

[Gandalfe]

Hmm. Not even kids use these, and they do have tiny fingers and tiny hands. Plateau clarinets are perfect for handicapped, and beneficial for sax players with notoriously imprecise finger movement...I didn't like the sound of my plateau keyed clarinet. So while I'll use a flute with plugs in the open-hole keyworks, my plateau keyed clarinet is more of a curiosity.

[pete]

I think it depends on the model of plateau clarinet (I'll just say "PC"). I believe that there were a few from Selmer, as well, but I'm not sure if there were any pro-level PC horns from any manufacturer. In other words, I don't necessarily think that PC = bad. It might be that the model, itself, just isn't that good.

In the case of the Vito I mention, the only change between the 7214 and 7214P is just the closed holes.

Personally, I don't see how having plateau keys would be a bad thing, unless the covers are "plugs": intonation would suffer. Covers, OK. Plugs, not OK.

I don't think I'd like to take a brand new R13 and get a tech to solder on some covers to see what difference it makes :).

[tictactux]

Problem with Plateau Clarinets is that, inherently, on keyed instruments the sound is emitted from the tone holes as much as via the bell. We all can hear the difference between "fingers away" and "fingers halfway on" when playing, and while the difference in soft passages is not that harsh, an ff would sound muffled and damped. (IMO at least).
On saxes the effect is the same, but the tone holes are magnitudes larger, and besides we're used to that specific sound.

I'm all for plateauing a specific key if it helps the player, but as a general band-aid for sloppy fingering I find it sub-optimal.

[pete]

Problem with Plateau Clarinets is that, inherently, on keyed instruments the sound is emitted from the tone holes as much as via the bell. We all can hear the difference between "fingers away" and "fingers halfway on" when playing, and while the difference in soft passages is not that harsh, an ff would sound muffled and damped. (IMO at least).

On saxes the effect is the same, but the tone holes are magnitudes larger, and besides we're used to that specific sound.

I'm all for plateauing a specific key if it helps the player, but as a general band-aid for sloppy fingering I find it sub-optimal.
Yes, I do agree, to an extent, but "good" clarinet players are supposed to keep those fingers pretty close to the holes, even if you're playing a "middle" G (i.e. all rings open). Additionally, Gandalfe mentioned something that is quite commonly played with and without closed holes: flute. Possibly a flute player can tell a difference, but I've never been able to, even when I've had my sister play her flute with and without the "plugs".

Or, as a follow-up question, why do some pro-level flutes have open holes and some don't?

[tictactux]

Yes, I do agree, to an extent, but "good" clarinet players are supposed to keep those fingers pretty close to the holes, even if you're playing a "middle" G (i.e. all rings open).
So do I, but the louder I have to play the more I lift my fingers. Works great as loud passages are often slow (interestingly). Else I indeed like to keep 'em close to where the action is.

Per the flute - beats me. I wondered about that too, especially why clarinetists learn on open-holed instruments while flutists learn on covered keys. But I guess that doughnut pads are more expensive to obtain and to install than plain ones, and - unlike the clarinet - there's no way past them as the holes are far too big for standard human fingers.

[SteveSklar]

Good clarinet players keep their fingers "close" to the toneholes which vary depending upon the tonal quality etc .... but still not as close as plateau clarinets keywork. and Plateau clarinets have a much wider and flatter coverage of the tonehole rather than a rounded, semi-arched finger. Can't really compare the two unless your fingers are way too close to the toneholes.

Leblanc LL came in a plateau model as maybe a Selmer Paris model too. But those are hard to come by in the used market.

Easy test is to play a C below the staff xxx-ooo and keep your first RH finger far away and slowly let it get close to the first ring RH, and listen to the tonal change.


also, as i'm mentioned in the past on my Selmer CT i can actually stick my RH 3rd finger INTO the tonehole. So coverage is very picky on it, but i love the instrument.

[SteveSklar]

here's a brochure of the LL plateau
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Leblanc/Leblanc%20LL%20full+plateau.pdf

and this 1974 mail order catalog had a Noblet A plateau for $136 and the Bb for $126 both model 50s. And it lists the LL in plateau in Bb, A, C or Eb !!
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Leblanc/Leblanc%20LL%20UK%20prices%201974.pdf


And Terry would love this .. the LL FULL Boehm in Bb, A, C or Eb models (from the above price list)

[SOTSDO]

Yup, Leblanc was the last great refuge of the available clarinet with custom keywork. I flirted with getting a LL Eb "full Boehm" horn back when I was playing in four different community orchestras as the "extra" clarinet/bass clarinet/saxophone/weird clarinet player. When I moved down here and lost most of my musical connections, I decided that it would not be worth the money.

The LL was the first Leblanc clarinet that I found I was able to stomach, tone and response-wise. However, the deal-breaker for me with Leblanc horns has always been the log-like feeling that they had in my hands, combined with the off-putting keywork. (The same "dimension" problem is also present with the Recital model from Selmer, but not the keywork issue.)

It can probably be tied back to my dislike for alto clarinets...same clunky size...

(About five years ago, there was a Selmer "full Boehm" Eb horn, a Series 9 by appearance (but no model specified) up on eBay. Despite the location of the item (Italy, not a safe place for eBay transactions), I bid on it up to the last second. However, that was before I had access to a DSL line, and I did not get my last topper bid in before the close. Bummer...

And, Selmer used to carry all of these instruments for purchase. Somewhere along the line, they dropped the policy and left us with the white bread assortment that we have now. Lucky for me that Series 9 and Series 10 "full Boehm" horns are easy to find on eBay.

Now the big remaining mystery is where all of those Leblanc instruments went...well, that and where my "full Boehm" Recital horn is going to be found...

[akame]

Thanks for all the advice, although I don't understand half of it, sorry! :redface:

I have gone for the Andino - I should be getting it tomorrow.

Regarding size, although I am petite, I do have long fingers so reaching hopefully won't be too much of a problem. I did find on the Lark that the 6th hole down (the last one you would cover in lower G) is a lot bigger than the others. Is this normal, and if so, why? The ring finger is not exactly the broadest pad wise.

I am still thinking about the mouthpiece - I can get a David Hite Premier for approx £33 in the UK, or less on eBay from America, but I suppose I will have to pay import tax, sadly.

I do also have a quick question about where to put the reed on the MP. A book I bought said the reed should be just under the tip of the mouthpiece, my tutor says just over, and a video on You Tube, I think, said level. Talk about confusing!! Is it a case of whatever is easiest, or is there a "proper" place?

Still plugging on......

akame

[tictactux]

I do also have a quick question about where to put the reed on the MP. A book I bought said the reed should be just under the tip of the mouthpiece, my tutor says just over, and a video on You Tube, I think, said level. Talk about confusing!! Is it a case of whatever is easiest, or is there a "proper" place?
That's the problem - ask three clarinetists, and get at least four different opinions. :-)
My experience. Try level first (or so that the tip, when pressed against the mouthpiece, doesn't extend over the tip). If you squeak (and still do after say 1 minute), push it back a bit.
I tend to think that the position of the reed depends on its form (thick, thin, hearty, meager, whatever), and you simply have to try on a per-manufacturer-per-strenght basis.
Besides, rearranging a reed in mid-performance looks ever so professional. :-)

Hey - it's supposed to be fun. Never forget that. Fun. Fun. Now repeat after me... good luck.

[pete]

However, the deal-breaker for me with Leblanc horns has always been the log-like feeling that they had in my hands ...
Dude. You're describing a bassoon :P.

[SOTSDO]

Finger hole size on clarinets can vary considerably - not in absolute terms, but just enough that those with slim fingers can encounter troubles with coverage unless they are very well trained (which is something that new players are not, by definition). That's why I always insisted that the young girls who studied under me (which was not as sexist as it sounds when written out) always started out with the smaller tone holes of a Vito clarinet. Once a player is more experienced (and has developed a better concept of just where their fingers should be held and placed), a move to an intermediate or professional clarinet with larger holes is in order.

The holes on horns are, like everything else, a compromise. A larger tone hole allows the sound issuing from it to better propagate when the instrument is played. However, there is an upward limit to how large a hole can be when "stopped" by a human finger bone.

Various solutions have been arrived at by the different makers, and for the most part they work pretty well for most players. However, the further "down" the instrument the holes get (in general terms), the larger the opening needs to be to "work properly". That's why that problematic sixth hole from the top is so much larger than the first one, and here the size of your slender right hand ring finger comes into play.

Problems with tone hole coverage translate out (in the real world) into squeaking (as a hole is not fully covered acts as a sort of unintentional register key, and allows the instrument to sound a different set of vibrations (the squeak) instead of a tuned note). And squeaking results in frustration, often to the point of abandoning the instrument altogether.

The next larger clarinet in band terms to your Bb soprano instrument is the Eb alto clarinet, which sort of resembles a large tobacco pipe. In the dark days of the past, some of these were manufactured with the same open tone holes and rings (which, looking like eyeglasses from the old days, were called Brille, or "eyeglasses" in German) as on the much smaller soprano horn. The probably theory here was that the alto, with a tone quality that has been described as "vapid" by those who ought to know, would benefit from the greater projection that non-plateau keywork offers.

However, open holes on alto clarinets are (relatively speaking) of monumental size, and it takes perfect finger placement (and hefty hands) to cover them well. Yet, in many band situations, the alto clarinets are given to weaker players (who have trouble with the soprano finger coverage in the first place), the prevalent thinking being that the easy alto parts will cause them less anxiety and stress. In actuality, putting a weak soprano player on an open-holed alto is a recipe for disaster, as such players are often young girls with slender fingers.

Along about 1950 or so, the manufacturers of so-called "Boehm" clarinets wised up, and started producing nothing but plateau keywork on alto clarinets. (Bass clarinets, the next size up, already had all plateau keywork, as even the first finger hole on such an instrument is too large to stop with a human finger.) Mind you, it didn't improve the alto clarinet all that much, but at least their hearts were in the right place.

There is another clarinet between the sopranos and the alto, the seldom seen (outside of orchestra circles) basset horn pitched in F.† It is (in practical terms) just a large soprano clarinet, especially in terms of its keywork. As it is larger, the finger holes and their rings are also proportionately larger.

And, many soprano clarinet players encounter significant difficulties when they make the infrequent move over to the basset horn (usually to play true classical music by Mozart and Beethoven) and suddenly have to deal with the larger finger holes. Whenever I had to do this (using an old Selmer basset horn owned by Washington University (Saint Louis), it took me a good week of frequent practice before I was hitting the finger holes just so.

So, cheer up - it could be much worse...
___________________________________________________________

† There are actually two other "common" clarinets between yours and the alto in Eb:

One is the A soprano, frequently seen in orchestral work. (Symphonic orchestra clarinetists almost always own both a Bb and and A soprano.) On that instrument, both the finger holes and the distance between them are significantly larger than on the Bb soprano. This fact of life presents problems for some when making the switch.

The second instrument is the rarely seen (in the United States and Western Europe) clarinet in G. Used almost exclusively for ethnic Turkish and Bulgarian music, the holes and the finger spacing on these instruments are (compared to your Bb soprano) monumental. To make matters even worse, the keywork on such instruments is always of the so-called "simple" type, a variation on the original six-key clarinet that may incorporate some Boehm innovations like rings, but much of the horn's structure is that of open finger holes without rings or tone hole chimneys. I've never played one, and have only held one once, but I could tell just from the feel of the instrument that I was not cut out to play a clarinet in G.

[tictactux]

Finger hole size on clarinets can vary considerably - not in absolute terms, but just enough that those with slim fingers can encounter troubles with coverage unless they are very well trained (which is something that new players are not, by definition).
Here's what clarinetists involve into within the next 10M years (and only if they believe in evolution):
http://about.telus.com/images/pages/gecko_5fingers.gif
See? All tone holes properly stopped. Including those on Bundy Alto Clarinets.
(I can't say what our snout will evolve (if at all) into, just focus on the fingers)

[SteveSklar]

Here's what clarinetists involve into within the next 10M years (and only if they believe in evolution):
http://about.telus.com/images/pages/gecko_5fingers.gif
See? All tone holes properly stopped. Including those on Bundy Alto Clarinets.
(I can't say what our snout will evolve (if at all) into, just focus on the fingers)

what was this thread about ?

oh yeah .. reed placement.
This is based on the player alot of the time
try playing with the reed higher, level and slightly lower and come to your own conclusions.

It will affect the reed response and tone to certain degrees. You may hear a difference or may not .. it all comes with experience.




now back to our regular schedule talking about fat froggy fingers and tonehole size and placement ....... froggy fingers ?

And thanks to Terry for his usual great information. Did you know that Terry maintains the largest collection of Alto Clarinets in the northern hemisphere ? just kidding :p

[tictactux]

And thanks to Terry for his usual great information. Did you know that Terry maintains the largest collection of Alto Clarinets in the northern hemisphere ? just kidding :p
Actually I was thinking about nudging him into writing the Ultimate Alto Clarinet Encyclopedia. Hey, a gifted writer like him could turn even a (subjectively) dull topic into a neck hair bristling experience.
Seriously, I like your posts a lot, Terry!

[SOTSDO]

When we lived up north, I had a special steam heating boiler built, just so I could fire it with discarded Leblanc alto clarinet bodies. Those oily things burn for a long, long time...

[jbtsax]

I do also have a quick question about where to put the reed on the MP. A book I bought said the reed should be just under the tip of the mouthpiece, my tutor says just over, and a video on You Tube, I think, said level. Talk about confusing!! Is it a case of whatever is easiest, or is there a "proper" place?

Still plugging on......

akame

That is a good question. I teach my students that when looking straight at the reed on the mouthpiece they should be able to see just a "thread" of the black tip of the mouthpiece. That said, experienced players will often adjust the vertical placement of the reed depending upon the strength and resistance of the reed.

-A reed that feels a bit soft can be put slightly beyond the tip of the mouthpiece.

-A reed that feels a bit stiff can be put slightly below the tip of the mouthpiece.

The idea is that by putting the reed higher, you are putting more of the thicker part of the reed into the area that vibrates. Conversely by putting the reed lower your are putting more of the thinner area of the reed into the area that vibrates.

Oftentimes when my "pet reed" begins to go soft, I will coax a bit more play out of it by putting it a little higher on the mouthpiece, but this only works for so long. Some players will clip the end of the reed to achieve the same effect, but I have never had good success with this technique.

Congratulations on your new clarinet. Keep us informed about your progress.