Double-Lip Embouchure

[Roger Aldridge]

This topic may stir up some trouble! ha ha ha

I'm curious if others on the forum currently use or have tried a double-lip embouchure.

This article inspired me to try a double-lip first on bass clarinet. I was so impressed with the results (more vibrant sound and greater projection) that I then tried it on tenor saxophone with equally good results. Finally, I switched to a double-lip on clarinet.

http://www.theclarinet.co.uk/articles/doublelip.shtml

Roger

[SteveSklar]

Roger,

Of course I Have !!

I can play 3 basic embouchures: Symphonic (the tight one :shock: ), doublers ( the loose one :D ) and the double-lip (the fun one :o ).

The key to any of them is to take in a proper amount of mouthpiece from the get-go to maximize your sound production and expressionability.

I mostly play the more symphonic tight type embouchure. But from time to time will do the doublelip while practicing. I enjoy it, though it feels as if it shakes my brains a bit more .. maybe extra resonance ??

I haven't really recorded myself of the doublelip and compared it to the symphonic for tonal differences for me ... just some basic observances of the two being quite similar tonally. Of course it will vary from person to person .. and maybe my technique for it isn't 100%

[eddierich]

Hey guys,
Back in college, my clarinet teacher, Caroline Hartig, recommended warming up using a double-lip embouchure. I still do it from time to time now, but I don't really notice much of a difference in sound between double-lip and my regular clarinet embouchure, just a different feel like Steve mentioned.

[Gandalfe]

Hey guys, Back in college, my clarinet teacher, Caroline Hartig, recommended warming up using a double-lip embouchure. I still do it from time to time now, but I don't really notice much of a difference in sound between double-lip and my regular clarinet embouchure, just a different feel like Steve mentioned.Welcome Eddie! Why do you think it was recommended? Did you gain anything in the way of control from the use of the double-lip embouchure? I'm just curious.

[eddierich]

Hi Gandalfe and all,
The exercise Dr. Hartig gave me went as follows:
You must do this sitting down. You allow the bell of the clarinet to rest on or between your knees (which ever is more comfortable) so you don't have to use your embouchure muscles to support the instrument. Both lips act as cushions and it helps you to avoid biting. Once in the proper position, the exercise was similar to the Moyse long tones in De La Sonorite. Start on F2 and slur to E2 and repeat. Then E2 to Eb1, repeat, and so on until you get to E1.
I think the point of the warm-up is to equally engage all of the embouchure muscles, top and bottom.

I think doing this exercise with a single-lip embouchure would be beneficial to feel the difference between biting with the lower lip/jaw and using the bottom lip as a cushion.

[PrincessJ]

As a part of my daily practice routine I so a very similar exercise to the one described above. Normally, I play with a single lip embouchure, but I have experimented with and still occasionally use the double lip.
I used it exclusively for about a month, and migrated back.
I love my tone with the double lip, I find that I have no choice other than to use a little softer reeds, or I start to sound a little "stuffy".
It's a nice change though, I used it a lot when I was first learning (believe it or not) and that's really helped me with any biting problems. I've never had biting issues at all actually, I recommend dappling with it for anyone who does. It's a great way to strengthen embouchure muscles and gain control over your tone.

[jbtsax]

I was so impressed with the results (more vibrant sound and greater projection) that I then tried it on tenor saxophone with equally good results. Finally, I switched to a double-lip on clarinet.

I have never seriously tried the double lip embouchure. I don't like to work that hard. :) My question for Roger is, do you think you could achieve the same results with a the top teeth resting on the mouthpiece if the jaw is opened more and the bottom lip does not press so hard against the reed? In other words could someone get the same more vibrant sound and greater projection with a modified single lip embouchure?

[davetrow]

I learned clarinet double lip and have never played any other way. I've tried single lip from time to time, but the vibration of the mouthpiece on my upper teeth is very close to chalk-on-blackboard for me, even with a fairly thick pad. As well, I have a tendency to bite, which double-lip keeps better under control.

BTW, what has made the biggest difference for me on embouchure is the Kooiman Maestro thumbrest, which finally made my right thumb a full partner.

[SteveSklar]

i should have added that years ago i think the double lip embouchure helped me improve my single embouchure. I now make sure that the mpc is up against my top teeth thus allowing the lower lip to create "no pressure" to keep the mpc up, and is there for the reed.

In students that is what I find, that the lower jaw actually pushes up, or keeps the mpc up in the mouth, thus added pressure against the reed. Thus I always drive the thumb as the force to keep the mpc up against the top teeth, or "in place" for a double embouchure.

The clarinet embouchure it is best for the lower lip to go towards/out (not up) to meet the reed - dependent of other stuff too.

[Jacques5646]

I learned clarinet double lip and have never played any other way.... as I learned tenor, than bari, double lip and have never played any other way... and I do think my sound come now close to what I'm striving for.

Double lip is supposed to help relaxing the various muscles which play their role in sound production. I confirm I'm tending to use reeds a notch less stiff than "regular" friends with comparable mpcs (rather open: .120 on bari and .100 on tenor) and sound. I'm however not an altissimo star and this might be kinda drawback from using the method.

[WoodwindDoubler]

I used this method for a long time on tenor, which was key in relaxing both my inner and outer embouchure. However with experimentation I found I preferred the teeth on top, loose bottom lip, open throat approach.

Never tried this on clarinet, probably never will.

[SteveSklar]

I used this method on soprano, alto and tenor sax and clarinet. But as mentioned, it helped me create a better single lip embouchure making sure the mpc is pushing up against the top teeth, and thus the lower lip having less pressure.

This is what my private teacher was trying to teach me 29 years ago !!

[jbtsax]

Can anyone name some of the professional (symphony?) players you use the double lip embouchure exclusively on clarinet?

How about classical saxophonists?

How about professional oboists or bassonists who use a single lip? (just kidding)

[SteveSklar]

....
How about professional oboists or bassonists who use a single lip? (just kidding)

on my oboe i play with the reed on top !! :)

[pete]

CHow about professional oboists or bassonists who use a single lip? (just kidding)
We could then ask if that improves their intonation ....

/me: ducks and runs

[jbtsax]

I've heard that their tone sucks, but their embouchure doesn't get nearly as tired. ;)

Does this mean that playing the crumhorn requires a "no lip" embouchure?

[pete]

jbt, you're making too much rackett.

:P

[jbtsax]

What do you expect. I'm just a sacbut living in Yewtah.

[pete]

Well, I got you to go from double-reeds to brass. I think I won the pun contest.

:P

[pete thomas]

I keep trying but have never had the perseverance to succeed.

Two of my favourite players used a DLE, John Coltrane and Lee Allen.

[PrincessJ]

I've tried single lip from time to time, but the vibration of the mouthpiece on my upper teeth is very close to chalk-on-blackboard for me, even with a fairly thick pad.

All of a sudden I have noticed this as a problem, but only with certain mouthpieces (seemingly plastic ones only). A bite pad doesn't help the issue for me either, the vibrations go straight to my brain. It's not comfortable at all. I avoid those mouthpieces, I have slightly crooked front teeth if that has anything to do with it, but that same problem is what keeps me from using double lip more often, as the "point" of my one tooth digs right in to my upper lip, even without any pressure or tension.

[SteveSklar]

my two front teeth are not flat together, and I actually play slightly skewed to the right. I also use a medium thick (Yamaha) toothpatch to prevent the buzz that I started feeling years ago.

I used to never feel a buzz then I definitely felt it once I started using metal mpcs more (sax), and then felt it on regular rubber mpcs (sax & clarinet) too.

Ironically, I don't get this buzz with crystal clarinet mouthpieces which goes against normal logic.

[SOTSDO]

I too have uneven incisors (plus a long history of cracked molars), the long-term curse that I inherited from hitting one too many mines in RVN. They have deteriorated to the extent that nothing lies even any longer. Last week, I even had to adjust what is left of my bassoon embouchure in order to obtain even pressure on the reed. (Well, actually I just twisted the reed a bit.)

My current drummer just happens to be a dentist (actually a 70% dentist and 30% commedian, but let's not quibble), and he has periodically dealt with all of the chips and cracks to help me out. It was really a zoo before - now it's merely a minor irritant.

The moral of the story is to not nit expedient anti-tank mines (mostly made up of our dud 500 pound GP bombs) when riding atop a tank.

[kris]

When I first started playing in junior high, it was "natural" for me to use double-lip, but I was taught that that was an "old" way of playing and that the newest instruction was for single.

So that's probably why I bite too hard. Have to use a hard reed to hit the high notes, but then it's too hard to manage the low notes without sounding stuffy, airy, and then I run out of air and become exhausted. To make my lower and middle notes sound nice, I need a softer reed, of which I bite the heck out of and choke off my high notes. I didn't notice this so much in high school as I was playing so much I guess I had more strength to play my #4 reeds..... now I'm battling between 2.5 and 3, thinking of trying a 2.

Nice to know my years of bad habits were totally unnecessary :cry: But, I did say I wanted to take getting back into playing slowly, take it seriously, and become a good musician.

Lesson #1 Down, many, many more to go :O)

[PrincessJ]

my two front teeth are not flat together, and I actually play slightly skewed to the right. I also use a medium thick (Yamaha) toothpatch to prevent the buzz that I started feeling years ago.

I used to never feel a buzz then I definitely felt it once I started using metal mpcs more (sax), and then felt it on regular rubber mpcs (sax & clarinet) too.

Ironically, I don't get this buzz with crystal clarinet mouthpieces which goes against normal logic.

Interesting post. I have very uneven front teeth myself (hard to notice visually but it shows up on a mp for sure) but I have a pretty straight angle on the clarinet, no left or right, nor on the tarogato.
Other note, I feel the buzz on certain plastic mouthpieces, not so much hard rubber. On most plastic mp's I need a bite pad to avoid the tingling shooting up my brain. I hate that.