Surprised by an old Bundy

[Roger Aldridge]

I've been looking for a back up clarinet to use for summer outdoor gigs....not wanting to take my treasured vintage Couesnon Monopole out in the hot sun. After trying several student model clarinets I was given a 70's Bundy by a sax buddy to try. I did not have good first impressions of the Bundy when I tried my Grabner K14 & #3 Legere Quebec set up on it. To my ears the sound was muddy. I then tried a series of mix & match combinations with the 4 types of Grabner Kaspar mouthpieces I have as well as 3 types of Legere reeds. I finally hit pay dirt on the Bundy with a Grabner K11e and a #3 Legere Ontario. Of course, the Bundy's quality of sound is not at the level of my Couesnon. However, it's not bad at all. For whatever reason(s), the K11e really brings the old Bundy to life. This set up should meet my needs for a summer-gig clarinet.

I'm curious about how folks on this forum would compare a 70's Bundy to the current field of plastic student clarinets in terms of overall playability. The Bundy certainly appears to be rugged!

Roger

[pete]

I was impressed with the Buffet student model (B11/12) and the Yamaha student model (YCL-250). They had a lot of oomph for student horns. I mentioned in another thread that I bought the Buffet clear plastic horn with the copper keywork.

I played a 70's-ish Bundy Eb soprano in high school which was pretty nice. And plastic. Hey, one of the basses I played was a plastic Bundy. Decent horn.

IMO, the entire Bundy line was designed to be rugged and play relatively in tune, even if you beat on the horn. Yes, the sound could be "plain", but so what? "Plain" is OK for a beginner, which is what the Bundy line is focused on. I think the Yamahas are better instruments, but they've never struck me as that rugged. As for Buffet, up until the horn I bought (and then traded for a YCL-34), I never cared for their plastic models.

[Ed Svoboda]

Like I have posted before my clarinets are from the 1950's. An old Noblet and a couple of old Conn's. I think the Conn's are 424's. Tom Ridenour has an interesting opinion about materials used to make clarinets. You can find it at http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com ... lamyth.htm (http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/grenadillamyth.htm)

[pete]

Like I have posted before my clarinets are from the 1950's. An old Noblet and a couple of old Conn's. I think the Conn's are 424's. Tom Ridenour has an interesting opinion about materials used to make clarinets. You can find it at http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com ... lamyth.htm (http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/grenadillamyth.htm)
I just remember that most woodwinds used to be made out of boxwood (http://members.tripod.com/~Music_Treasures/anticlar.htm). From my work with all things saxophone, I'm pretty positive that the bore makes more difference in the sound than the material the horn is made out of.

As I've said before: imagine a clarinet with the R13 bore made out of plastic. I'd buy that.

[SteveSklar]

As I've said before: imagine a clarinet with the R13 bore made out of plastic. I'd buy that.

Then a Buffet B12 is for you.
http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments.php?mode=productSpecifications&pid=722
polycylindrical bore. and blued steel springs. a very high quality plastic clarinet. I had one go through the shop the other day and after i got it fixed up it was a very nice instrument to play. It had synthetic pads which sealed very nicely and nice and smooth key action. made in germany and was very high quality.

though i've never measured the bore to make sure it is exact, but then the R13s seem to vary over time anyways

[Gandalfe]

I bought a B12 for my grandson who had small hands at ten years of age. When he plays a R13 he squeaks more. Someone mentioned that a B12 would be the way for a sax doubling on clarinet to go as the holes are smaller and easier to cover.

[SteveSklar]

i've always associated student instruments with smaller toneholes .. though i've never actually kept any measurements or anything but it all makes sense.

of course, with smaller toneholes you get an effect on tone. also professional instruments usually have alot more attention to detail and some fine tuning.

At one time I did compare my Normandy 4 to Noblet 45 to Leblanc Symphonie.
basically;
Normandy 4 - smaller toneholes, keywork a little more compact.
Noblet 45 - slighlty larger toneholes, keywork not so compact
Leblanc - largest toneholes and most spread keywork.

of course, i'm sure Leblanc and other makers vary their tonehole size dependent upon what they are after - that was only one example. and of course keywork varies too. I have a plastic Artley 17S here which has a very wide spread keywork .... so go figure.

[pete]

As I've said before: imagine a clarinet with the R13 bore made out of plastic. I'd buy that.

Then a Buffet B12 is for you.
http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments.php?mode=productSpecifications&pid=722
polycylindrical bore. and blued steel springs. a very high quality plastic clarinet. I had one go through the shop the other day and after i got it fixed up it was a very nice instrument to play. It had synthetic pads which sealed very nicely and nice and smooth key action. made in germany and was very high quality.

though i've never measured the bore to make sure it is exact, but then the R13s seem to vary over time anyways
Yah. Lots of variation in that R13 bore. Discussion I found: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoar ... 4&t=101034 (http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=101034&t=101034)

However, just because it's polycylindrical doesn't mean it's the same bore (the new B12 (http://www.wwbw.com/Buffet-BC2540-5-0--B12-Bb-Clarinet-i70399.music) and new R13 (http://www.wwbw.com/Buffet-BC1131-5-0--R13-Bb-Clarinets---Nickel-Plated-Keys-i26541.music) have slightly different bore measurements, tho), but I wouldn't mind a side-by-side test! Hey, it's $600 vs. $2600.

[Roger Aldridge]

Thanks for the link to Tom's article. I remember reading it before but it's been a period of time.

I'm going on gut instinct about this....

I think that Tom is on to something. Simply based on my experiences with mouthpieces I've found exceptionally high quality hard rubber mouthpieces (of course faced by an expert craftsman) to have a greater resonance and level of projection than mouthpieces I've played with lesser quality rubber or other materials. I have not had an oppurtunity to try a high quality modern wood mouthpiece (like one made from cocobolo). However, it's my impression that wood mouthpieces do not have as much projection as high quality hard rubber.

If this logic holds water, then there is the possibility that a high quality hard rubber clarinet might actually have more resonance and projection than a comparable grenadilla wood clarinet. I'd love to try one of Tom's clarinets and see for myself.

Another way we can look at this is how much the mouthpiece-reed-ligature (and the player) contributes to one's sound versus the clarinet itself. Ralph Morgan used to describe the mouthpiece (with the reed of course) as a tone generator and the instrument as an amplifier.

In the case of the old Bundy I'm trying, it sounds pretty decent with a top-notch mouthpice -- like my Grabner K11e (which Walter made especially for me) -- that is matched to the particular performance characteristics of the clarinet. As I described in my original message, this set up meets my needs quite well for an outdoor-gig clarinet. However, when I compare its sound with my vintage Couesnon there is no comparision. My Couesnon is significantly more resonant and and ringing.

A couple of other things.....

I haven't tried a new student model plastic Yamaha soprano clarinet. However, I had an older model Yamaha for a period of time. I had problems with Grabner mouthpieces playing flat on it. I mentioned that to Walter Grabner and he told me he heard similar comments from some other players. I tried several Muncy barrels on the Yamaha and had some improvement. But, I reached a point where trying to get my sound on the Yamaha to where I wanted it to be became more of a hassle than I could put up with. That said, I absolutely LOVE the Yamaha 221 II bass clarinet. It works beautifully with my Grabner LB mouthpiece. One of these days I'll have to test a new Yamaha student clarinet and see if it's better than the older model I had.

In the meantime, the old Bundy appears to be what I'm needing for outdoor playing.

Roger

[pete]

FWIW, Peter Ponzol, in an article I wrote (http://www.saxpics.com/Keilwerth-old/Old/pponzol.htm) regarding Keilwerth saxophones a few years back for my old website, said ...
I made about 100 wooden mouthpieces and know very well the problems of wood and moisture. In theory the material should have no influence on the sound and I strongly believe that. However, different materials have different resistance and this causes you to play differently in order to compensate for more or less resistance.
He is, of course, referring to sax mouthpieces, but the principle should be the same.

I do have a wooden clarinet mouthpiece and have used it on a couple of occasions, but I really can't tell much difference -- and my Selmer C120 was a much better mouthpiece to play.

However, you mention something that I've always thought and I like to see that someone else has posted it: the mouthpiece setup makes at least as much impact on the overall sound or "experience", if you will, as the horn itself -- and, of course, easily 80% of the sound isn't the horn or mouthpiece, but the player. It's really outstanding when you couple a very decent mouthpiece with a relatively well-made instrument, even if that instrument's a student model.

I'd also like to try out the YCL-450. Looks interesting and I really liked the YCL-34 -- the 450's the replacement.

[SteveSklar]

yes, the R13 bores do vary.
from time to time i measure them and put them here
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clbore.htm

also some more Buffet information
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/snclarinet.htm#Buffet

and my two 1955s Buffet R13s have flat leaf springs on them
sn 51xxx and 55xxx not the more common needle springs

remember the B12 is molded. The R13 is bored out. Wood is going to vary much more than plastic too. and they may not have the exact same production design .. would have to measure the entire bore to compare that from top to bottom.

i've also found that some pad materials - like synthetic actually help the sound. but they don't help the player much as they can stick more readily
IMHO fyi, i sound different on a variety of mpcs on the same clarinets (depends upon the design intent of the mpc), same player, lig at least to my ears .. not sure 20 feet away though.

[RCNELSON]

I'm curious about how folks on this forum would compare a 70's Bundy to the current field of plastic student clarinets in terms of overall playability. The Bundy certainly appears to be rugged!

Roger

As you can see from my sig area, I still play a Bundy. Actually, my parents bought it as a Christmas present from a cousin who decided she no longer wanted to play. If I recall it's a mid-60's model. BUT...for plastic, it's a great instrument. Had it completely overhauled 4-5 years ago, and it still plays well. Not a pro model (have never been able to afford one) but a good one anyway.

[SteveSklar]

I bought a B12 for my grandson who had small hands at ten years of age. When he plays a R13 he squeaks more. Someone mentioned that a B12 would be the way for a sax doubling on clarinet to go as the holes are smaller and easier to cover.

btw, it takes me about 15 minutes to transition to the keywork of my R13s. The B12s are nicely spaced for my hands.

[pete]

I bought a B12 for my grandson who had small hands at ten years of age. When he plays a R13 he squeaks more. Someone mentioned that a B12 would be the way for a sax doubling on clarinet to go as the holes are smaller and easier to cover.

btw, it takes me about 15 minutes to transition to the keywork of my R13s. The B12s are nicely spaced for my hands.
I should open another thread about "closed hole" clarinets. I'd think that it'd be a GOOD idea -- you'd seal the tonehole every time -- but I don't know of any professional make/model that has these. Heck, I just Googled and can't even find pictures of one, but I know Vito and Normandy models are available with them.

[Gandalfe]

I think you might be right about closed key aka plateau keyed soprano clarinets not being offered by any of the major clarinet makers. I'd love to hear different but I only see plateau keys on bass clarinets.

[SteveSklar]

I should open another thread about "closed hole" clarinets. I'd think that it'd be a GOOD idea -- you'd seal the tonehole every time -- but I don't know of any professional make/model that has these. Heck, I just Googled and can't even find pictures of one, but I know Vito and Normandy models are available with them.

Vito
Normandy
Noblet
and Leblanc LL had a model available

I have PDFs of their product offering on ..guess where .. scroll up from this link until you see the PDF links for the LL
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/sncla ... #SNLeblanc (http://www.clarinetperfection.com/snclarinet.htm#SNLeblanc)

[pete]

So, only Leblanc?

[SteveSklar]

So, only Leblanc?

I doubt buffet had one

Selmer ? hmmm .. i think there were too busy with their Mazzeo system clarinets
which i also have brochures of their entire Mazzeo model line .. but i ain't gonna tell you were it's at ... you'll have to google to try and find it :)

I don't know who else would have made a plateau clarinet

[Roger Aldridge]

Bundy question.....

Do Bundy clarinet serial numbers have the same production year as Bundy saxophones? If not, could some one point me to a Bundy clarinet serial number list?

Thanks, Roger

[pete]

Based on comparing http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipm ... /BBBC.html (http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/HowOld/BBBC.html) to http://musictrader.com/buescher.html, they're using the same serial number list: the generic Buescher one.

Also based on looking at a couple of random serial numbers and the owners' recollections, the numbers are fairly accurate.

I'll add this to the mammoth serial chart I posted.

[Roger Aldridge]

Thanks Pete! It looks like my Bundy is from the early 70's.

[pete]

Not a problem. I've got some good ideas for that list and hopefully I'll get to it in the upcoming weeks. College class just started, tho.

[Roger Aldridge]

Just to circle back....

After spending more time with the Bundy I switched back to #3 Quebec reeds on the Grabner K11e. This set up gives me a remarkably good quality of sound and projection on the Bundy. In fact, the Bundy is really growing on me. It's definitely fun to play. As I wrote on the Woodwind.org forum, given how well-built and rugged the Bundy is and how good it can sound with a top-notch mouthpiece I cannot help but wonder why there is a need for cheap Asian imports. Why not simply recycle old Bundies?

I would never have thought that I could be so impressed with an old Bundy! ha ha ha

Roger

[Ed Svoboda]

I also suspect that the old Bundy is better made than most of the Asian imports.

[pete]

Why not simply recycle old Bundies?
Why not just buy used?

IMO, most people think "new" = "better" and, even if they don't, a lot of people aren't savvy enough to buy a decent old horn off eBay and get it properly repaired -- or know which horns to avoid.

As was mentioned on another thread, the clarinet design -- if not the tuning -- was established by the 1830s.

I've stopped giving advice about which vintage instruments to buy because, in the past, people shot me down and/or kept contradicting my advice. I might consider doing another thread about that, but I'll just post and run :).

Anyone have a statement on how much a complete clarinet overhaul costs? Say, Bb and bass? I know it's less than on a sax.

[Gandalfe]

In Seattle (2008) complete overhaul by a decent tech is from $400 to $500 which includes a year of return visits and a clarinet that plays as good as the design itself, sometimes better. I have a Buescher silver Albert in right now that I expect to come in at just over $500 because of some extra work like fabricating a right thumb hold. You can get an overhaul for less, but horror stories are everywhere.

Talking about prices for overhauls, I've had two friends walk away from my recommended tech because they felt the price was too high. One lady ended up seeing three other techs and the instrument is ruined because one of the repairmen bent the keyworks to her R-13 in ways that I don't even want to discuss. They other fellow hasn't found a tech with 'the right price'.

I'm guessing that prices are cheaper in other parts of the US and world.

[SteveSklar]

There is a lot of work that goes into overhauls. Some people just don't understand.

The $99 "overhauls" are simply cheap repads put in with basically a hobby glue. And we are talking the cheapest single bladder pads. Normally no setup what so ever .. just slap new pads in and off 'ya go.

Other more expense- sub $150 usually get the instrument to a playable condition, but lacks keywork refinement and good pads.

There is a big inspection process where one must look for air leaks in other places than pads !! plus cracks, reinvigorating the wood, cleaning, polishing, installation of high quality pads and the installation method, keywork refinement (making it all nice and smooth with no slop), and the list goes on.

I recently bought an R13 that had a newer "overhaul" with no leaks, the setup shows a 4 on my MAG machine. The pads are very pourous, which of course affects the tonal quality that you get !! It's a great R13, it's just going to get cork and high quaity leather pads real soon !

[pete]

So, finalizing the question, people aren't buying old Bundys because they can't justify buying one for $50 and then spending $400 for repair, especially when a new Buffet B12 costs $600 :P.

It's essentially the eBay argument I mentioned regarding saxophones: if the horn really is cheap on eBay, you've still gotta worry about that overhaul price.

[Roger Aldridge]

Pete,

The question of vintage versus new is certainly a good one. It's one that I've asked myself whenever I looked at getting a vintage or used horn.

For me, it comes down to the particular qualities I'm looking for in a horn. There are some vintage horns that have special qualities that are difficult to find in a modern one. As I've mentioned on other threads, I deeply admire Buescher New Aristocrat saxophones and Couesnon clarinets. I've come to feel that they are a perfect match for my tonal conception and playing. Whenever I play a new saxophone or clarinet I always shrug my shoulders and happily go back to my vintage horns. Therefore, a key factor regarding your question is knowing what we want and knowing the subject matter so we can (hopefully) avoid getting ripped off....whether it's on ebay or elsewhere.

My Bundy just came back from the repair tech and the bill was $85. So, I'd say that this was definitely cost-effective.

Last year I made several exceptionally good deals on ebay. I got a Yamaha model 26 (older version of the 261 open tone hold student flute) for $165. $90 was spent with my repair tech. After she worked her magic on the flute it looked and played like a brand new flute. Finally, I got the new Yamaha curved head joint for $135. This set up works absolutely great for me. Also last year I got my 70's Couesnon on ebay for $450 and $200 with my repair tech. This is truly a fantastic clarinet. I'd be hard pressed to find a comparable pro-level clarinet for anywhere near the money I paid for the Couesnon.

So, good deals can be had on vintage or used instruments. Of course, I have sad stories as well! However, live and learn. Happily, I've learned from many of my earlier mistakes.

Roger

[pete]

So, good deals can be had on vintage or used instruments. Of course, I have sad stories as well! However, live and learn. Happily, I've learned from many of my earlier mistakes.
That's a bit of my point. You and I are experienced enough to look at a horn in an ad and say, "This thing looks like it's going to need X, Y and Z. Those repairs will be $150. The horn is only $50. It'll play as good as a $600 horn when it's fixed. I'll do it."

Nancy Clarinet Player may not have enough experience to make the determination that the repairs aren't going to be that expensive and should budget for that full overhaul, instead, if she's going to let her fingers do the shopping on eBay. And we haven't even mentioned banding, pinning, epoxying or what have you. Hey, if I didn't know better, I'd think a band might just be a kewl accessory. You and I know it means "look for a different horn". (I mention some of these "if the horn has this, keep looking" things on my horn value thread.)

Or, a bit more "graphically":

* The horn has a max monetary value of $1000 in perfect condition.
* The horn has a playability value of a $1500 horn (i.e., "Experts think the horn plays as good as a ...").

If max playability value is less than the purchase price of the horn + the cost to repair it AND is not much greater than the max monetary value, it's probably a keeper. Otherwise, you're probably going to find a better deal, elsewhere.

But, it's a lot easier to say, "Student! Buy a new Buffet B12. Don't worry about eBay!" Unless you want to do it for the student.

[Roger Aldridge]

I completely agree with you. Clearly, less experienced buyers need to seek out guidance from musician friends, teachers, internet research, or other resources. Never the less, "learning experiences" are a part of life.

Roger

[pete]

Learning is good. However, I'd rather learn from other peoples mistakes :).

Hey, I do thank you for sharing. That made the forum a little better place.

[PrincessJ]

Okay, necro thread, but I have to chime in and add myself to the bundy fan club.
It's all about the musician and the set up, I wouldn't take it to an orchestral gig, but there's nothing wrong with it anywhere else.
If I had to buy a relatively inexpensive plastic horn for my (nonexistent) kid, I'd buy and restore an old bundy.
Most of the newer plastic horns are icky, but I've seen a few exceptions, Yamaha (a select few models), Bliss (the all plastic one), etc. I've heard some people make them sound great.
Now if you hand me a laval for instance, not even my best, most favorite set ups and reeds could possibly save it.

Also, Roger's post sums it up straight forward and center.
Wise learn more from fools than fools from the wise though. :)

I'm not shut out to any age horn, if I like the tone, the feel, intonation, etc, and I can find a good set up for it, it qualifies. It doesn't have to be perfect unless I'm in the Symphony (which I'm not).

[JfW]

not a big fan of the bundy clarinets as I find the vito much easier to play.

[SOTSDO]

I agree wholeheartedly. The Vito is an easier route in for young folks, but I've found them to be more in tune than any Bundy that I've ever played. And, they are much less expensive than the Yamaha student models.

But, the best thing about them is the use of small finger holes, at least compared to professional instruments. I have convinced any number of sax players to start out on a Vito, this to learn the chimney locations more securely and without the squeaking that comes with new fingers on the larger openings. Later on, you can shift to something "more professional" with little loss.

[jbtsax]

In my area a repad on a student model plastic clarinet goes for about $200 - $250. This includes new key corks, tenon corks if needed, and some key fitting in critical places. We are doing most student clarinets and older wooden clarinets with imperfect toneholes with the Valentino synthetic pads. They provide an excellent airtight seal, even on the older wooden clarinets, and are very stable and long lasting.

The only downsides to the Valentinos that I am aware of are:
1. They tend to get sticky - clean with water and a flattened Q-tip
2. They have a different "feel" than bladder pads - not a concern with student & intermediate players.

It is true they cost more than traditional pads, but we charge the same for repads because the difference in the price of the materials is more than offset by the time saved in the installation because they are so consistent in manufacture.

I agree with SOTSO, the Vito has been my favorite student clarinet for years, both as a band director and as a repair tech.

[PrincessJ]

Perhaps my Bundy was made at 3 o clock on a Friday, but I have no intonation issues or any issues with the little guy whatsoever.
In a nutshell, the vito is a wonderful student instrument and I've never had any issues with them, a life long friend of mine grew up with a vito and loved it.
But also, an improper setup is easier to come by with the bundy than the vito. It takes more "fine tuning", but other than that I must argue that mine is a superb instrument, nothing like my professional quality instruments, but I would give him to a 13 year old for band any day.