Vibratosax plastic sax video

[abadcliche]

Thanks guys! Interesting product for sure, but IMHO not ready for its intended purpose. More interesting to gearheads like us. DavidW said that a build-your-own tenor kit may be forthcoming, and I find that very intriguing indeed!

And a huge THANK YOU! to DavidW for bringing his horn by and allowing me to take a look!

[jbtsax]

Than you Matt for that excellent review. It answered all of the questions in my mind about the Vibratosax and even some that I didn't have. The inability to make adjustments, and the flexible keys seem to me to be its greatest shortcomings from a tech's point of view.

[DavidW]

Many of the keys do have adjustment screws. It just seems that the main issue I have doesn't I am thinking I could put a small washer or shim between the pad and key arm to correct the timing of the A pad cup closing with the Bb bis.

Vibratosax already has several design changes coming to address known issues. Hopefully I can get back to visit Matt again when I have received the updated parts.

[saxismyaxe]

I'd like to see the body and neck available sans the keywork installed. I'd pick a set up and custom fit metal keywork to it myself.

Is the wall thickness of the body and bell thick enough to secure screw in style posts and supports in the manner of a clarinet or oboe?

If not, external blocks can be easily added to accommodate the keywork. We are dealing with a very easy to fuse plastic in this case, unlike the acrylic used on the Grafton.

The chemical I've used successfully to repair Grafton bodies will do the same to chemically weld both the polycarbonate and ABS plastics used on the two Vibratosax models.

[Groovekiller]

I think the Vibratosax is better off with keywork similar to that which has been already installed. Metal keys would require a complete redesign.

I'm lucky. My Vibratosax played right out of the box. I do believe others, however, who say they have had problems.

The good stuff: I think the Vibratosax guys got the body and tone hole dimensions down very well. The places where the body parts are bonded together and the bore is not 100% smooth inside don't seem to affect the playability much. Remember, other things, like toneholes, introduce bore variations that are much more severe.

The bad stuff: The keys flex more than metal, but I think that can be fixed and still use plastic keys. I like the idea of plastic keys for this type of saxophone. It just needs refinement. There needs to be better quality control. I didn't get a strap ring, but they're sending one to me.

By the way, even the professional players who hated the idea of a plastic saxophone were fascinated with my Vibratosax.

[saxismyaxe]

I think the Vibratosax is better off with keywork similar to that which has been already installed. Metal keys would require a complete redesign.

Cheers Randy. Be that as it may, I don't care to entertain for my own use the company's present plastic keywork design, warts and all. It's anyone's guess whether they will be able to successfully and completely iron out all the kinks to have a dependable, wholly worthy instrument in the near future.

Which is why I would like them to offer the plastic body and neck so that I can at least adapt it to what I had in mind for the project when it was first announced.

[Gandalfe]

The chemical I've used successfully to repair Grafton bodies will do the same to chemically weld both the polycarbonate and ABS plastics used on the two Vibratosax models.

Do you have before and after pics of this kind of repair?

[pete]

@ abadcliche: Yah. Very nice article. You actually found something that I thought would make the horn easier to assemble and/or repair: the little body "sections" that you found when you popped in that leak light. I can see, as a repair method, that you cut a section of Vibratosax from a broken horn and replace it with a good section. Bond with glue. Of course, this means more intonation issues, just like with plastic clarinets that have large cracks ....

@ saxismyaxe: Check Google Images. There are an awful lot of pics and Saxofoonwinkel had some take apart pictures online.

I do also think that the metal keywork would be a problem, how this instrument is currently designed. You'd also have to have custom springs and the torque from said springs might be enough to rip the key off the horn. Additionally, I'm a guy that likes the best bang for the buck and I know how much my time is worth. You might be better off looking for a Grafton, instead.

I also think that if the horn isn't considerably better and considerably cheaper, soon, there aren't going to be enough folks to sell to.

I wonder if it'd be better if you made the plastic form and then reinforced with carbon fiber ....

[SteveSklar]

....... I wonder if it'd be better if you made the plastic form and then reinforced with carbon fiber ....

except when the heat the carbon fiber layers with epoxy to cure it the plastic would probably melt.

[abadcliche]

My vote goes to wait 5 years and you can have a sax printed for you.

[saxismyaxe]

Do you have before and after pics of this kind of repair?

I have my own Grafton, in which I had to repair some pretty devastating damage to to make it operable. This included rebuilding the upper most area of the body where the neck receiver is located using dental resin.

It was gifted to me by friend and NY tenorman Bob Anram. I took the restoration as a labor of love out of appreciation. The results are quite impressive.

I'll find these photos and post them, or take new ones if I cannot locate my saved files.

The key ingredient in commercial welding liquids that will effectively bond the Grafton's acrylic composition, and is what was used by the factory originally, is methylene chloride.

[saxismyaxe]

@ saxismyaxe: Check Google Images. There are an awful lot of pics and Saxofoonwinkel had some take apart pictures online.

Cheers Pete. The owners posted those pics and videos over on SOTW when that operation was underway.

Their response to the flexing keywork problem was rather humorous.

Regarding the Grafton, as I mentioned in my above posts, I already own one. I have had the displeasure of having rebuilt it from the ground up, and know what a hassle this horn truly is. Which is precisely why I would like a modern version without all the headaches associated with it.

There are very good reasons why many a fine tech is loath if not completely resistant to working on them.

[saxismyaxe]

Do you have before and after pics of this kind of repair?

While I'm shoveling through my vast backup disks for the in progress photos of this reconstruction, I thought I'd snap a few photos of the horn as it stands now.

I had to completely reconstruct the top portion near the neck receiver, as it was missing off of the donated horn. I used an alto receiver and high F body tube portion off of an old stencil alto body I had, and built up and merged it into the plastic body with Dental resin poured into a fabricated outer "gate", and finished inside and out after hardening.

The bell was split, the keyguards broken, and the bell brace had be crudely re-glued by one of the previous owners. I permanently welded these, as well as a few key blocks that were broken, with the chemical welding agent I mentioned. This is THE answer to these type of repairs, as it is the same chemical used to assemble these horns originally.

The horn had to be disassembled, heavily cleaned (the plastic was filthy), repadded, with all the associated adjustments, felts, corks etc. of an overhaul. I tried to save and reuse any original felts, springs etc. where possible.

After all the work, it plays and sounds great. The intonation is actually better than a lot of horn in my collection.

[Groovekiller]

That's a really good job, and worth the effort. These horns play very well

[Gandalfe]

Sweet ride Mike. I still remember the day my "project" Grafton purchased on eBay arrived in a thousand pieces. I was heart broken.

[saxismyaxe]

Sweet ride Mike. I still remember the day my "project" Grafton purchased on eBay arrived in a thousand pieces. I was heart broken.

It was a gift from a dear friend, so I felt obliged to pull off a miracle in the restoration.

[DavidW]

I am guessing that parts are so cheap for the Vibratosax, it would be easier to replace the body if it was damaged. If they are able to setup US dealers and repair shops that stock parts, I could see an entire body sections costing less than the labor to replace one piece

[pete]

... or, for that matter: "Your horn's broke? No biggie. Here's another."

I do think that this boils down to one question: "Would you recommend this horn to a beginner?" (Even assuming that all the tweaks we've and SOTW has mentioned have been applied.)

For me, I just really can't see doing it. Even if this horn is as good as, say, a Yamaha 23, it's never going to be as sturdy. I could see me saying something like, "If you ("your kid," whatever) isn't going to take care of the horn, the Vibratosax is worth it. If you aren't, then you should go for a used Yamaha 23."

I could also see a place that rents out student horns wanting to switch to Vibratosax because the horns are cheaper, but I've seen rental horns and I know that they can get pretty beat -- or can be really old (hey, Kessler leases Bundy IIs. They haven't been made in what, 30 years?).

I'd like to know the terms of that Vibratosax warranty. If it's a full replace of the horn if there's any damage, I can start seeing the above scenarios happening.

[abadcliche]

The president of Vibrato, Piyapat Thanyakijj, was kind enough to send me an email with photos and listings of improvements they have made in the A1 since I saw the horn in the video. He gave me permission to put the information he gave me on my blog, and I have added a post here with an update: http://mattstohrer.com/2011/02/20/th...hone-update-1/

[Gandalfe]

Where is that "like" button?

[abadcliche]

Jim,

Not sure if this is what you meant, but you got me thinking, and I just added a "like" button to my blog.

[Groovekiller]

I got a similar message. Looks like Vibratosax is working on improvements, not advertising. When Japanese auto makers took that approach years ago, look what happened - Great cars! I'm optimistic.

[Gandalfe]

Jim,

Not sure if this is what you meant, but you got me thinking, and I just added a "like" button to my blog.

But, but, but... there's no linkee to your blog in your sigline my friend!

[Gandalfe]

I got a similar message. Looks like Vibratosax is working on improvements, not advertising. When Japanese auto makers took that approach years ago, look what happened - Great cars! I'm optimistic.

Imagine that, listening to your customers. What a concept...