eBay Deal o' the Moment

[kevgermany]

Actually, I'm not sure that there were Evette-branded sopranos in that era. I've only seen alto, tenor and bari. Admittedly, I haven't been looking that hard, as the Evette line -- at the time -- was Buffet's "step down" model.

I've finally actually seen one of the E&S horns from around that time and I can clearly see the "Made in Italy" stamp, so that makes things interesting, right there. I've heard people say that an E&S horns that looks like this is definitely a Malerne. I've heard others hedge their bets and say Malerne and something else. I've heard Orsi, too. All of these folks have good arguments. The only bad argument I've heard was that they're Keilwerths. Wrong country 'n' stuff ....

I did a little research and found a mention here. Quoting:


IMO, I think that this is probably correct: that soprano and the Evette-Schaeffers stamped "Made in Italy" are really from Santoni.

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In writing this thread, I also found another Italian manufacturer: Alfonso Rampone (see this for some info). He isn't the Rampone from Rampone & Cazzani. That's Agostino Rampone (check the company history) -- and they were all in the same town, Quarna, Italy.

More manufacturers to add to the list ....

I think... Speculation based on a web post I read and can't find again - That the Italian article is right as far as it goes. What seems to have happened is that Buffet (Boosey & Hawkes??) ended up owning the A Santoni name and used the brand in some countries instead of Evette. My tenor would be an example. They were also stencilled as Couesnon. There's an example on SOTW, which is identical to my Santoni.

Jan Garbarek appears to have an original A Santoni from when the workshop was still going. Seems that the Santoni saxes were not very good. Alfonso Rampone I know about, courtesy of Milandro who seems to know a lot about these Italian saxes.

[pete]

I actually posted about a "Pare" horn a while back. I think there's another for sale on eBay Italy.

I remember, years ago, taking a trip to this gigantic music store in Rochester, NY. They had a bin of bunch of old horns. I saw maybe a dozen Evette-Schaeffers in the bin .

(Of course, earlier Evette-Schaeffers were pro horns, so it's fairly easy to get confused. Additionally, Evette-Schaeffer Master models are generally pro horns that something didn't work quite right on.)

Some of the reasons why the Malerne connection is/was very hard to shoot down is because these Santoni horns look a LOT like Malernes and Malerne sold Buffets as their "super pro" models. Makes it easy to make the leap to either "Buffet owned Malerne" or "Malerne made horns for Buffet."

All this is something I might look into sometime. There's an awful lot of saxophone ground that lies uncovered!

[LowThudd]

A pair of Wurlitzer C Mels, one in Silver, one brass.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140783832915...#ht_748wt_1396

http://www.ebay.com/itm/320933406240...#ht_500wt_1413

[pete]

Actually, 99% of all saxophones are brass. "Silver" horns are *usually* not solid silver, but silver plated. The most famous exception to this is the King Super 20 Silver-Sonic, which could have a sterling silver neck and bell. In the modern sax world, you've got some horns from Yanagisawa, Selmer, and Powell that have large portions of the horn that are sterling.

Another comment on plating is that gold plated saxophones are first plated silver. This is because gold won't adhere to brass, but will to silver.

The interesting bit on those Wurlitzers is that one's Martin-made and one's Buescher-made. Kinda nice to see them together.

The amusing bit is the silver-plated C. First you have the description: "It is playable, but needs to be repadded for best sound quality." Playable as what? A percussion instrument? The pads are falling off of it. The other pads appear to be held together with mold. There's not even any cork on the neck. I also liked the comment -- emphasis is in the original ad, too -- "It does not have a ligature." Um. That's not exactly the biggest problem ....

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The thing about C melodies is that there are an awful lot of them. If I wanted to do fixer-upper, I could buy a Buescher with snap-on pads for $cheap and fix it up easily ... or I could just buy one that's already in great shape, like this one -- and I doubt that one will get above $700 and probably $500 will be the max. When you can get a new Aquilasax C that might (depending on who you talk to) have as good or better intonation for $750, you start to understand the price-points.

[LowThudd]

I did realize it was silver plate. I did not realize they were two different stencils. Very interesting!

As for the Aquilasax..I'm kinda just an antique guy. And I love to repair antiques and use them. I've heard, so far, that the Aquilasax has not quite panned out, having several lots that needed to be returned for various reasons. Perhaps that is not the whole story. I like the old horns. Weather it's cameras, cars, tools or instruments, there is just a certain jeux no se qua that I like. Even though there are added pitfalls as well. The history is important to me.

[pete]

jeux no se qua

Translates as, "No games to four." That's not the phrase you're looking for.

Aquilasax isn't meant to be professional quality. It is, however, trying to improve on the classic C melody tenors by having a horn that's more consistently in tune. They failed at that with their original necks, but they've redesigned 'em.

However, if someone was offering me either a minty Conn New Wonder alto or a Yamaha YAS-23, I'd take the YAS-23. It's pragmatic: I don't care for the intonation or keywork on the New Wonder. You may have an argument about tone, but the minuses on the New Wonder outweigh the plusses. Don't get me wrong: two of the best horns I've ever played were vintage -- a Selmer Mark VI bari and a Conn 30M tenor -- and I didn't even feel worthy to play that 30M.

End-all, be-all: the cost of a good repairman to restore ("playing condition" generally just means "replace badly worn pads and fix some of the key heights") a C melody into better-than-new shape hovers in the $900 range. That's without replating the horn. That's why beat-up average C melody stencils, like the ones you've mentioned, aren't exactly "deals."

[LowThudd]

Translates as, "No games to four." That's not the phrase you're looking for.

I knew I should have taken French classes. OOps.

Point taken. And you certainly have FAR more experience than me(to say the least). The C mels I bought just "spoke" to me, and I did wan't something to work on myself, and learn about woodwinds. If I had planned on restoring them to "New", I wouldn't have bought what I bought. And I was aware that the fingering, etc is not modern, by anymeans. I am interested in the experience of learning to play on the type of instrument that the great players of the past learned on. And I believe(if I am not mistaken), that the Conn stencils I bought do qualify.

I often take the tougher route in my learning experiences, and often benefit from it. Sometimes not so much. I still plan on getting a more modern Alto in the future, probably still vintage though.

Thanks much for your input and expert objectivity. You have certainly got the right to tell me "I told you so" in the future. lol

[pete]

Well, I certainly think that if you're wanting to learn how to repair a horn and/or just want to practice your skills, you should do it on something that's beat up, rather than what Conn did: they had their repair techs practice on the Conn-O-Sax (now valued around 5 digits and some people ask for 6) and the Conn F Mezzo soprano (now valued around $7000).

I value saxophones in two completely different ways: first, I just think the thing is pretty. Some of the ca. 1910s horns are pretty because you could be talking little horns with really intricate keywork. In the 1920s, you also had all those interesting sopranos, like the HN White King Saxello and the EA Courturier-made Lyon & Healy Perfect Curved horns. There are also pretty horns just because of how they're plated or engraved. The second way I have to look at it is the playability of the instrument. I've said this before: I like the shiny, but I can't play the shiny. It doesn't matter how pretty the horn is if you can't play a note in tune on it.

However, if you have the combination of really pretty with really good playing, you've got my attention.

I happen to rather like the looks of a lot of modern horns: the P. Mauriats and the Cannonball Stone horns. However, I doubt that they'll ever be as valuable as even a Buffet SuperDynaction in 50 years. The Orsis I definitely think will. Borgani, possibly. I think Yanagisawa has just recently got there. Yamaha's there, too, with their Custom horns. Those are just the pretty ones. I've heard that the Inderbinen horns are fabulous, but I'd like to see them get some nice plating, rather than the "distressed" look.

[LowThudd]

Nice! Ferree's Tools N57G dent balls

[pete]

Ah. This might qualify: Hammerschmidt Klingson Bb clarinet. One of those German fingering systems that some folks here are so fond of. $26.

[pete]

Yes, I'm an enabler for Helen.

http://www.gebrauchte-blasinstrumente.eu

Let's see. A Keilwerth New King tenor with intact plastic "angel wing" keyguard for 399 Euros (about $500), a Keilwerth Toneking alto with both plastic keyguards intact for 490 Euro ($613) and several other drool-worthy horns at higher price-points.

[Helen]

You... will... not... tempt... me... Seriously.... Nope... No... temptation.

Actually, I'm very happy with both my JK Tonekings. So they have metal replacement guards. Those too were original. Many a horn left the factory with them. Both the horns on that site need overhauls, so the prices (add shipping from Germany + taxes) wouldn't be any better than what I paid... Actually, they'd likely cost more.

You see... No temptation.

BTW, you're a bad, bad man, Mr. Artist formerly called Saxpics.

[SOTSDO]

Ah. This might qualify: Hammerschmidt Klingson Bb clarinet. One of those German fingering systems that some folks here are so fond of. $26.

Just a garden variety Albert, as far as I can see. Useful for someone wanting to try out the Albert system, but with little other value other than the novelty.

[LowThudd]

Nice old bass clarinet

[pete]

Just an old bass clarinet, really.

A lot of old clarinets, even older than this one, aren't worth that much. That's fortunate for folks like me that'd love to play around with an old boxwood or pearwood clarinet, but unfortunate for folks trying to sell them. For a minute, I was interested in the "THE MOUTHPIECE IS MADE FROM HORN" comment, but it's just a hard rubber mouthpiece, not one made out of ivory or something else.

As far as playbility, this is one of those "simple system" bass clarinets. You'll share some fingerings with Klose/Boehm clarinets, but you're going to be missing some keys. Additionally, I'd say you'll have a high probability of this bass being high pitch -- briefly, it won't play in tune with modern, low pitch instruments -- so you'd have an unaccompanied solo instrument.

I've had a good track record with picking prices (referencing the above C melody). I'm willing to bet you that this will get no bids at all. If the bass was from an important manufacturer like A. Sax, then $465 would be a great price.

Oh. That Hammerschmidt's up to $67. The main reason I posted about that is because Hammerschmidt's a known specialty clarinet maker. If you're happy with Albert system clarinets, this would be a fairly desirable horn.

[SOTSDO]

...I've played similar instruments in the past, have a couple of older basses keyed in the same fashion, and am not above acquiring additional such instruments, but I would not touch this one. Too beaten about, too vague of a description, and no mention of the low pitch/high pitch issue in the description, indicating that the seller is either ignorant of such problems or (much, much more likely) is purposefully fogging up the issue.

After high pitch issues, the main thing that offends me about playing older basses remains the neck angle, even over the stink issues involved with such an instrument. I have an Italian bass that has the mouthpiece coming out at a dead on 90° angle to the body. That one involves a degree of contortion to my neck and hands that is anything but conducive to musicality.

[LowThudd]

Is this an Albert system? Excuse my ignorance, just haven't seen a clarinet like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Vint...#ht_500wt_1180

[kevgermany]

Is this an Albert system? Excuse my ignorance, just haven't seen a clarinet like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Vint...#ht_500wt_1180

It's a simple german system, probably what you guys call albert. Figure on a rebuild if you buy it, and there's a ring missing just below the barrel. Not sure, but it may not be all from the same instrument. Some bits are wood, but not all of it.

[LowThudd]

It's a simple german system, probably what you guys call albert. Figure on a rebuild if you buy it, and there's a ring missing just below the barrel. Not sure, but it may not be all from the same instrument. Some bits are wood, but not all of it.

Thanks. No I wasn't bidding. Just currious.

[kevgermany]

Bell doesn't match (or has been polished), either.

[pete]

Goodwill Roundup:

* 231,949 Lacquer Aristocrat alto: $280. I think that this one is a little too well described and will sell too high for "deal," but you never know.

* Unk. s/n. Buescher The New Aristocrat split-bell-key alto. Silver plate. $37. I've seriously thought about bidding on this one. Hey, Snap-On pads. It's listed as a "Beuscher" and it's under "brass," so it has a high likelyhood of selling cheap.

* For LowThudd, because he'd have too much fun with this: Unk. s/n. Vito lacquer alto. $31. This is a French-made Vito, so you're not talking "student," you're talking Beaugnier-made. I'm relatively sure that it's a Model 37 from the late 1960's. Needs a lot of work, but I don't think too many are going to take a crack at a horn labeled "student" and in the wrong section.

[LowThudd]

Goodwill Roundup:

* For LowThudd, because he'd have too much fun with this: Unk. s/n. Vito lacquer alto. $31. This is a French-made Vito, so you're not talking "student," you're talking Beaugnier-made. I'm relatively sure that it's a Model 37 from the late 1960's. Needs a lot of work, but I don't think too many are going to take a crack at a horn labeled "student" and in the wrong section.

(As I click through the pictures with my sore index finger on the mouse button). That is REALLY interesting. I think I have all the projects I can handle at present(or can afford), but that is deffinitally in my unique view cool.

[pete]

The one fun thing about French Vitos, other than that they're from Beaugnier, is that they tend to have some unique keywork. I'm not telling if the "unique" is good or bad ....

[LowThudd]

I am curious about this horn. Obviously, not in the best of shape...in fact, I think it has been in combat, literally: Is that a bullet hole in the bell? Sure looks as though someone shot it.

[pete]

I am curious about this horn. Obviously, not in the best of shape...in fact, I think it has been in combat, literally: Is that a bullet hole in the bell? Sure looks as though someone shot it.

The ad does mention it was probably hung on a wall. I think you're looking at a mounting hole.

I may or may not have mentioned this, but one of the major things to watch out for on "antique" instruments is if they're high pitch. If they are, there's no way you're going to make 'em play in tune with modern instruments. Additionally, check out http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/...read.php?t=806, especially the sections regarding buying a wooden instrument with cracks, splits, etc.