Can someone Explain this device to me?

[LowThudd]

Warburton P.E.T.E. Personal Embouchure Device for Woodwinds

Is this an accepted form of Embouchure practice tool? How does it work? IS it any better than more conventional methods listed in the thread below on the subject? Thanks

[pete]

I'm not only a member, I'm a ... well, I'm an admin. I guess.

Let's see. Isn't this the guy that played The Tick? That'd be kinda kewl. Spooooon!

Anyhow, I've not heard of this thing before. I also had to wonder how they got P.E.T.E. out of "Personal Embouchure Training Device" (WWBW's got the name wrong. It's the "Personal Embouchure Training Exerciser"). I also wondered how big the thing actually was. It's dinky. They've also got a YouTube infomercial.

Anyhow, someone makes a rather good point in the YouTube comments: how is this thing any better than, say, a pencil?

Another trick is to hold a soda straw in your lips for 30 minutes at a time as you watch TV.

One of my favorites is to hold two pencils in the corners of your mouth for as long as you can.

Just read http://woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3532. Better tips for ya. Cheaper, too.

[LowThudd]

Thanks for that. If I had seen the vid, I wouldn't have asked. lol
It also seems to me a lolipop might work just as well. And taste better also. Actually, I have been reading that thread. Saw the auction at the same time, just got my curiocity up I guess.

[SteveSklar]

That is for brass players. It is to help improve your airstream and build up your mouth muscles .. supposedly.

Of course, one could use a smaller throat mouthpiece to accomplish the same sort of thing, and practice long tones more.

and the straw .. I tell people to learn french horn.

[pete]

Allegedly, French horn is, at least, the most difficult brasswind to play and may be the most difficult instrument to play, period. "May be" because oboe players have a claim to that title, too. (Interestingly, I could play almost an octave on an oboe and make quasi-musical sounds out of a French horn, but absolute zip from flute.)

Mr. Warburton is primarily concerned with brass players, but seems to have recently stretched out into the wild world of saxophone mouthpieces. If you check out the video page, a wide cross-section of reed, double-reed and brasswind players post about how good the thing is.

The lollipop thing might work, depending on the size and shape. A Dum-Dum, not one of those 12" pizza plate things you get at a carnival.

[LowThudd]

The lollipop thing might work, depending on the size and shape. A Dum-Dum, not one of those 12" pizza plate things you get at a carnival.

It appears this has been tried...



Really, it's not me!

[SteveSklar]

Truthfully I think oboe is harder to play just at the embouchure level.

Having played french horn and oboe, I think the oboe embouchure is harder to maintain and create a good tone.

Of course the oboe fingerings is totally worse than french horn too

[pete]

Yah, but you don't really need to learn several different ways how to position your hand in the bell on the oboe .

[SteveSklar]

Yah, but you don't really need to learn several different ways how to position your hand in the bell on the oboe .

come 'on .. you've played a Bb bari sax ... what do you do when you need low A ? ... rotate it sideways and move your knee over the opening !! Do the same with an oboe (not that I've tried)

[pete]

come 'on .. you've played a bari sax ... what do you do when you need low A ?

In my case, I'd use the low A key .

[bpimentel]

It always seems to me that the best players, woodwind or brass, are the ones using the least muscular effort. I'm not convinced that a "stronger" embouchure is worth anything. A better-trained, more precisely-controlled one, sure. Full disclosure: I have not tried the Warburton devices.

I've been hearing the "horn and oboe are the hardest instruments" myth for decades now. I can't think of any reasonable way to measure an instrument's difficultly against another. (Do you compare beginners on day one, or recitalists making their Carnegie Hall debuts? Playing the same music, or music written for each instrument? On a good reed day, or a bad reed day?)

[bpimentel]

An additional thought on instrument difficulty:

I played the Ferling 48 Famous Studies on saxophone as an undergraduate student, and on oboe as a graduate student. I was genuinely surprised at the extent to which some of the ones I really struggled with on saxophone were a breeze on oboe, and vice versa.

[SteveSklar]

There's only 2 things I can think of why the french horn is difficult compared to other brass.

[1] it has such a small mouthpiece - but I even play some cornet, etc and the FH is easier for me (granted I played FH consistently for years and years vs other brass). Now the Tuba was hard for me on the occasions that I tried it.

[2] FH has that thumb valve to switch between Bb & F horns. but then those pesky Trombones may have multiple "extension" triggers (F & G triggers) and require one to be much more accurate on the slide position.

Now marching, I think the concert FH would be the worst (excluding the marching FH). Of course, I don't want to even think about marching with an oboe.

[LowThudd]

I have never seen a Guitar in a marching band. There is probably a really good reason for that.

Since we are now talking brass, I have a couple questions.

a) I have thin lips, I have heard this is a problem when playing brass. Above it is mentioned that the cornet has a small MPC. Does that make it easier to play for us with diminished lip size?

b) I have been looking at "Pocket Trumpets", small cheapo trumpets from china. Would the smaller size make it more difficult to play?

[pete]

I have never seen a Guitar in a marching band. There is probably a really good reason for that.

Simple: you can't hear it, unless you're going to be lugging around an amp. Arguably, that be the most entertaining marching band I've ever seen.

RE: Pocket trumpets, the biggest problem is intonation. Mind you, I'm not a trumpet player, but my ex-wife is and I'm friends with a couple pro players. You can use the same mouthpiece on a pocket trumpet and regular trumpet.

It always seems to me that the best players, woodwind or brass, are the ones using the least muscular effort. I'm not convinced that a "stronger" embouchure is worth anything. A better-trained, more precisely-controlled one, sure. Full disclosure: I have not tried the Warburton devices.

I don't necessarily think that the point behind those exercises with the straw, pencil or the Warburton thingy is really "stronger." I think it helps with "muscle memory" so you get that control. I also think it helps with endurance, which I can say from experience: I noticed it when going from bari sax with a gigantic Sigurd Rascher mouthpiece to Bb soprano clarinet after not playing the Bb soprano for a while. Or how just about anything is easier to play after you've played Rascher's 24 Intermezzi for a few hours.

[kevgermany]

a) I have thin lips, I have heard this is a problem when playing brass. Above it is mentioned that the cornet has a small MPC. Does that make it easier to play for us with diminished lip size?

Botox

[SteveSklar]

a) I have thin lips, I have heard this is a problem when playing brass. Above it is mentioned that the cornet has a small MPC. Does that make it easier to play for us with diminished lip size?

The french horn has a smaller mpc.

Interestingly enough the brass mpcs are very complex in their designs and they make them for a variety of tonal situation AND embouchure capabilities and LIP sizes.

[SteveSklar]

First, here is a BASIC concepts of a brass mpc

[SteveSklar]

and some more descriptions

[SteveSklar]

Then we get to their descriptions and identification for embouchures and lips
For trumpet cornet. fluegelhorn the mpc varieties goes on for pages and pages n the Selmer USA catalog, here's a short snippet

[SteveSklar]

I use Farkas mpcs when I do play FH. There's only a few compared to what is available for trumpet.

[Carl H.]

I have never seen a Guitar in a marching band. There is probably a really good reason for that.

Simple: you can't hear it, unless you're going to be lugging around an amp. Arguably, that be the most entertaining marching band I've ever seen.

I have a wireless setup, that when combined with my "big" amp could easily balance (drown out) a marching band, and has a range much larger than a football arena.

I do not like marching and have never had to march, but I might like marching a wireless guitar just for the potential mayhem.

[jbtsax]

There's only 2 things I can think of why the french horn is difficult compared to other brass.

[1] it has such a small mouthpiece - but I even play some cornet, etc and the FH is easier for me (granted I played FH consistently for years and years vs other brass). Now the Tuba was hard for me on the occasions that I tried it.

[2] FH has that thumb valve to switch between Bb & F horns. but then those pesky Trombones may have multiple "extension" triggers (F & G triggers) and require one to be much more accurate on the slide position.

Another element that makes french horn more difficult is that the harmonics in its regular playing range are closer together making accuracy more difficult.

Q: How do you make a trombone sound like a french horn?
A: Put your hand in the bell and play a lot of wrong notes.
Q: What is the difference between a french horn and a "scud" missile.
A: The "scud" missile is a lot more accurate.

Now marching, I think the concert FH would be the worst (excluding the marching FH). Of course, I don't want to even think about marching with an oboe.

That's why in marching band oboe players are called "flag twirlers".

Simple: you can't hear it, unless you're going to be lugging around an amp. Arguably, that be the most entertaining marching band I've ever seen.

I have a wireless setup, that when combined with my "big" amp could easily balance (drown out) a marching band, and has a range much larger than a football arena.

I do not like marching and have never had to march, but I might like marching a wireless guitar just for the potential mayhem.

Sorry guys. Desperate band directors without a strong tuba section have been using an electric bass guitar in their field shows for years. There is a battery powered amp on a cart pushed by a drummer who missed too many rehearsals behind the bass guitarist marching in formation. Don't ask me how I know this.

[pete]

Assumption: you were pushing the cart .

[LowThudd]

Assumption: you were pushing the cart .

LOL. Let's hope not.