Fun With Brass

[jbtsax]

When repairing and restoring vintage saxophones, one of the biggest challenges is trying to touchup or match the old dark gold lacquers that are so beautiful. I have spent a lot of time experimenting with adding gold dye to lacquer to achieve that effect. I have found that you can darken lacquer that much however it is extremely difficult to make it look good because as with any transparent finish with a tint, the color is thickness dependent. It is very difficult without expensive professional spray equipment to create a perfectly even thickness with each coat.

I have found an easier way by speeding up the aging of the brass using a chemical called "Liver of Sulphur". You may remember it in high school chemistry as the one with the rotten egg smell. You know the one that was poured into the heaters in the girl's locker room, not that I ever did that prank myself.

The first photo shows a 6M Bb side key that has the lacquer worn off the touchpiece.



The second photo shows the key after the tarnished area was polished using MAAS polish. The polished area of the brass turns bright and shiny, but does not match the rest of the key.


The next picture shows the Liver of Sulphur product and one cup of warm water in a measuring cup with 4 drops of the chemical added.



The last photo shows the key after being immersed in the liquid for just 45 seconds.



The above was just a demonstration to show how quickly and dramatically the chemical change takes place. In the real world one needs to remove the key before the desired tint is achieved, soak the key in a solution of baking soda to neutralize the sulphur in the surface, and wait 24 hours. The process continues after the part has been removed from the chemical and the brass continues to darken a bit more. After 24 hours it is stable, and at that point you can add a quick coat of clear lacquer and have a fairly good looking key. If the color change goes too far, you simply polish it off and start over.

When I find the time I will show the effects of this and other patina chemicals on brass saxophone keys taking close up photographs at regular time intervals.

[pete]

Kewl.

Does the neutralization process completely kill the smell or does that only go away after sealing with lacquer? Not that I'm going to do this, I'm just interested.

[jbtsax]

There is really no significant smell at that level of dilution [4 drops to 1 cup] to begin with. Once the key is bathed in the baking soda solution and dried, there is no smell at all. You definitely don't want to hold the concentrate up to your nose and take a whiff.

[SteveSklar]

Love that dark brass look.

Now I have to figure out how to "dip" my bright lacquer mk VII alto in that ... which of course is lacquered. Then it would match my Coufs and slightly older mk VII tenor's dark lacquer.

[abadcliche]

Awesome.

Do you have a recommended source?

Does the solution have any effect on old lacquer?

Does the patina wear off at all if you don't lacquer over it?

Left in, does it just continue to get darker?

[simso]

Matt, can also be purchased under the name of Ebonol

[abadcliche]

Thanks simso! If I find answers to my other questions, I will post them here.

[jbtsax]

Matt, can also be purchased under the name of Ebonol

That is not the same product. The one I used is liver of sulphur gel and the brand name (and source) is shown in the photograph. Using just a bit of common sense, the answers to all of the other questions can be found in the photographs and text of my original post as well if one takes the time to look.

[simso]

Thanks simso! If I find answers to my other questions, I will post them here.

I left that for the original poster, I was merely giving you an alternative name to purchase under

In regards to your questions

Q1. Ebonol can be purchased at almost any chemical suppliers, if you wish matt, you have my personal email address, send me an email and I can tell you how to make the same product with simple pool chemicals.

Q2. It has minimal effect on existing lacquer, that being said if you were to let it sit in the solution for an hr, then being a caustic it will damage the lacquers integrity

Q3. No the patina is permanent, only way to remove is to buff, or as we have seen, repeated use of a thumb or finger in an area will in fact cause some micro buffing and will alter the patina in this localised area.

Q4. Yes if you leave it in, eventually it will go black.

Side note:

The manufacturers of todays horns are using ebonol for the creation of the patina finish.

Ebonol is Sodium Hydroxide - Caustic Soda..
Liver of sulphur is Potassium Hydroxide - Caustic Potash.
They are chemically very similiar and are used to substitute each other in the manufacture of many products from humble bath soap to pool chemicals to fertilizers, to corrosive applications.

I hope this answered your questions

Steve

[abadcliche]

Well I put my thinking cap on and hunkered down for a good 20 minutes thinkfest and found (thanks to JBT's clues!) that the source for the gel pictured at the top of the thread is here: http://www.cooltools.us/Cool-Tools-L...-p/pol-802.htm


Thanks Steve! Super helpful and informative. Would you recommend Ebonol over liver of sulfur? If that is what the makers use, seems they must have made that choice for a reason.

[jbtsax]

Liver of Sulfur is also called sulfurated potash formula: K4S3O2. Even though it contains "potash" in its name it should not be confused with

Potassium Hydroxide called caustic potash (also "lye") formula: KOH. They are two very different compounds.

[simso]

Would you recommend Ebonol over liver of sulfur? If that is what the makers use, seems they must have made that choice for a reason.

Matt,

Ebonol, can be purchased in bulk, we buy ours in 20 litre drums at a time. Have you looked at some of those funky finishes that are coming out these days, some are bluish green, others are vintage brown, matt black and so on. Ebonol, dependant on the mix rate and how you apply it, gives all those finishes, the product has been around a long time.

Its almost addictive in using, you can also alter the finish in patches or runs by spraying hot water / vinegar , it gives nice streaks to the finish.

Follow it up with a coat of lacquer, I like 2 pack poly urethane clear, but nitro will be fine and easier to spray for most people, and you have a super sexy looking instrument.

[pete]

[Admin Notice]

Kinda more like an apology.

For some reason, the software we use here doesn't like the brand-names that are being used in this thread, so it dumps your posts into the Moderation Queue. That means one of the WF staff has to approve your post before it shows up in this thread. Sorry about that.

I've been a tad under-the-weather for the past couple of days, so I've only checked in here one or two times. My head is fuzzy enough to not be able to tackle technical issues. Except for computer ones.

Anyhow, please carry on. I promise that if I see a post in the Moderation Queue for this thread, I'll approve it the next time I visit.

[/Admin_Notice]

[jbtsax]

Matt,

Ebonol, can be purchased in bulk, we buy ours in 20 litre drums at a time. Have you looked at some of those funky finishes that are coming out these days, some are bluish green, others are vintage brown, matt black and so on. Ebonol, dependant on the mix rate and how you apply it, gives all those finishes, the product has been around a long time.

Its almost addictive in using, you can also alter the finish in patches or runs by spraying hot water / vinegar , it gives nice streaks to the finish.

Follow it up with a coat of lacquer, I like 2 pack poly urethane clear, but nitro will be fine and easier to spray for most people, and you have a super sexy looking instrument.

Pictures?

[jbtsax]

The mention of "Ebonol" piqued my curiosity so I did some research. It seems that it is manufactured by Enthone in the US and only available through their distributors. I spoke with the sales manager at Chemithon in Seattle, Washington who is the closest distributor to Utah.

Ebonol C which is the darkening agent for metals containing copper comes as a dry powder and is only available in a 110 lb. container for a price of $750.00. The shipping to Utah by UPS would run about $210. Furthermore it must be heated to 120 F to 180 F to color metals requiring a plastic or steel drum and a tank heater.

The sales manager suggested another product they carry made by EPI Electrochemical Products Inc. which is B/Ox 312 that he believed to be more suitable and cost effective than Ebonol for the musical instrument application I described.

B/Ox 312 comes in a 1 gallon bottle for $82.81 or a 5 gallon pail for $174.40 both of which prices includes the $27.50 hazardous shipping fee. It is used at 20% (or less) by volume so 1 gallon will produce 5 gallons of the product, and best of all, it works at room temperature so there is no need for expensive drums and heaters.

EPI will also send a sample kit of 250ml of several of their chemicals at a modest price to try. For most of their chemicals they show photographs of the various finishes that can be produced using that particular product.

[simso]

The Ebonol I use,

• Supplied in a 20 litre drum,
• Liquid in form
• No heating required

[jbtsax]

Any pictures of saxes you've given an antique/vintage finish using Ebonol? What does your 20 liter drum cost in Australia?