Big-Time Resources

[pete]

All right. Ed gets to shamelessly plug his own Yanagisawa pages in a thread. I get to plug my former website here. (I owned it from 1997 to 2007.)

On The Vintage Saxophone Gallery, I had done quite a bit of research on the following manufacturers:

* Buescher
* Buffet (Evette-Schaeffer)
* Conn
* Couesnon
* Dolnet
* HN White (King)
* Keilwerth
* Kohlert
* Martin
* Pierret
* Sax
* Selmer
* SML (Strasser-Marigaux-Lemaire)

... and had a bunch of pictures from several other manufacturers.

The point is that if you have a horn-related question, it may be answered on that website. Or you might find a picture of what you need.

Please note that the new owners are in process of redesigning saxpics.com and certain portions may become unavailable from time to time.

[pete]

Serial Number Lists for Pro Horns

(Serial number lists for student horns generally don't exist. Sorry.)

We all need 'em.


All info has been combined onto my new chart at http://thesax.info/serials.htm

Note:
-> American-made stencils do not have extant serial number charts. There are some theories about Pan American serial numbers in comparison to Conn pro horns, but the theories don't always work.
-> European stencils generally use the same charts as the horns they were stenciled from.
-> I can kinda-sorta figure serial number charts for Dolnet and Hohner, as the former had an M70 model introduced in 1970 and the latter had an anniversary model stamped with the date.

If any of the above links "die", I'd recommend checking the Internet Wayback Machine at http://www.archive.org.

[pete]

Listing of all known A. Sax instruments (some pics):
http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/galpin/gdsl.html
http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/Clie ... ID=0129093

[Ed Svoboda]

Good stuff.

I would have never had made the Yanagisawa pages except for you indicated that you had little time to do so. I was only filling a gap. Little did I know that I would get tons of email as a result.

[pete]

Well ....

When I created saxpics.com there weren't *any* saxophone picture/info websites, other than Margaret Downie-Banks' page on Conn -- and that page is general Conn info.

ATM, there is The Conn Loyalist, The HN White website, your one on Yanagisawa, The Martin Story and a few "generalist" websites: a couple on C instruments and one for the Soprillo. There are some other sites regarding Keilwerth (and misc. German makes), too, but they're in German (of which, I can read about four words).

Heck, even on saxpics.com, I roped a couple people into doing most of my work for me, like Laurie Pimblett for the Dolnet pages. bill kasper once said that he wanted to do a "saxpics.com" until he had seen my website. And then he shut down Amazing Grace (actually, it was because his kid was born, but hey).

Now, the resources I mentioned above seem to be links for/from a variety of museum exhibits. Which is kewl in and of themselves.

Anyhow, I didn't really do much on Yamaha or Yanagisawa because they're only "quasi" vintage. And Yamaha and Yanagisawa have really, really screwed up records.

The #1 name I'd research if I was still doing saxpics.com is Leblanc. The reason I didn't is because it's a waaayyy big project. Besides, I'm havening fun just doing some random projects.

[pete]

After a couple weeks of playing around the web, I give you my table of approximately 110 sax manufacturers. They're accompanied by links to picture galleries and informational articles.

Enjoy.

[Gandalfe]

Wow, I should put this on FB and point to it from my blog.

[pete]

Kewl!

I posted in the appropriate place on SOTW, too. What I'm hoping is that I'll actually get people e-mailing me more makes and models that don't conform to my list.

[tictactux]

After a couple weeks of playing around the web, I give you my table of approximately 110 sax manufacturers. They're accompanied by links to picture galleries and informational articles.
Enjoy.

Inderbinen is Swiss...we're not assimilated yet.

[LowThudd]

Kewl!

I posted in the appropriate place on SOTW, too. What I'm hoping is that I'll actually get people e-mailing me more makes and models that don't conform to my list.

Are you interested in pics of my Bruno once I get it cleaned up? Although, I guess it is covered by Conn.

[Helen]

Inderbinen is Swiss...we're not assimilated yet.

"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." But that alp horn thingy, that is technology that is not needed.

(In case you didn't see the English version, or are not a Star Trek the Next Generation fan, that was a quote from the Borg.)

[pete]

"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." But that alp horn thingy, that is technology that is not needed.

(In case you didn't see the English version, or are not a Star Trek the Next Generation fan, that was a quote from the Borg.)

Ah, the fun with languages. I'm actually aware that folks in Switzerland speak multiple languages (German, French and Italian, right?), but when you see, "Google Translate. German to English," you tend to go along with the flow.

I've obviously been assimilated by Google. I've fixed the page. Boy, is my typing embarrassed.

==========

@ LowThudd: thanks for offering, but the listing is primarily for professional models. I've mentioned that your Bruno is a stencil of an American horn, Conn, IIRC, and Pan American. That's not to say that all American stencils aren't interesting -- Conn actually did try out some new and interesting designs on their stencils -- but, I'm sorry to say, that the Bruno's not one of them.

I've also got some European stencils mentioned. The reason why is because the majority of European stencils are exactly the same as the horn they were stenciled from and only the engraving is different, such as with the King Marigaux, which is a stencil of the SML Gold Medal horns. I've also got some non-pro horns listed, like the Vibratosax. The reason: it's a rather striking new design. Others are listed just because they're rather unknown manufacturers, like Santoni.

[kevgermany]

Pete, good work. Thanks!

Some points:

1 - Guatrot - this is the common misspelling. Should be Gautrot.
2 - You list many of the older German makers as being part of Migma or B&S. Yet you do not say that A Sax is part of Selmer. Perhaps it would be better to say they were standalone, later became part of the parent.
3 - There's an earlier Max Keilwerth model - World, that takes a clarinet type mouthpiece. e.g. http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...TQ:grin:E:1123
4 - I think a lot of the later Schenkelaars were stencilled from Amati and/or B&S or it's predecessors, not just from Keilwerth.
5 - I'm a bit surprised to see Berg Larssen and Rudolf Carte under B&S. Interesting. You may want to add the Guardala models in there, and the higher end B&S saxes - e.g. Medusa etc.
6 - As an afterthought, maybe need a better way of tracing the mergers/demergers over the years. Like JK. (How????? )

hth

[tictactux]

"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." But that alp horn thingy, that is technology that is not needed.

(In case you didn't see the English version, or are not a Star Trek the Next Generation fan, that was a quote from the Borg.)

I was about to register the ncc1701.com domain when I somehow got distracted by a cuboid.

[Helen]

Are you sure there is a "World" model of Max Keilwerth, Kev? World was made by F.X. Hüller, and because Max worked for them, some attribute the model to him. But unless the sax as a Pure Tone stamp, it's not a Max Keilwerth model.

Max did, for example, build President saxophones, before he worked for Hohner. These horns do however, have a Pure Tone stamp, while the Hohners have a Hohner stamp. The World models from Hüller have certain stamping, but I haven't seen any with his Pure Tone label.

[pete]

Pete, good work. Thanks!

Some points:

1 - Guatrot - this is the common misspelling. Should be Gautrot.
2 - You list many of the older German makers as being part of Migma or B&S. Yet you do not say that A Sax is part of Selmer. Perhaps it would be better to say they were standalone, later became part of the parent.
3 - There's an earlier Max Keilwerth model - World, that takes a clarinet type mouthpiece. e.g. http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...TQ:grin:E:1123
4 - I think a lot of the later Schenkelaars were stencilled from Amati and/or B&S or it's predecessors, not just from Keilwerth.
5 - I'm a bit surprised to see Berg Larssen and Rudolf Carte under B&S. Interesting. You may want to add the Guardala models in there, and the higher end B&S saxes - e.g. Medusa etc.
6 - As an afterthought, maybe need a better way of tracing the mergers/demergers over the years. Like JK. (How????? )

hth

1. I spel gud.
2. You have a point.
3. Disputed! See Helen's post.
FWIW, I'm not sure I could say that it's supposed to have a clarinet-like mouthpiece. The way the neck looks to me is like a Conn microtuner neck with a part missing. The neck is in obviously bad shape, as is the rest of the horn. Of course, I also haven't seen another example of that kind of horn, so I can't confirm or deny if the neck's supposed to be like that or not. I think I mentioned that I slapped together that page fairly quickly and didn't have that much time to look at all the galleries I linked to, other than to confirm the gallery/info existed.
4. What I posted was, "Stencils Only (usually J Keilwerth)." The other J. Keilwerth (Joachim, or something like that -- sorry), Julius Keilwerth's grandson, came out and said very specifically that they made horns for Schenklaars. Again, I haven't done that much research on the company, so I'm going off what I know. Picking a random Google, here's a thread on SOTW that goes in several directions.
5. That's from Helen's website. You're definitely right that I missed the new horns. Will fix.
6. That's definitely a problem.

I'm thinking about re-doing the entire page with a fun tab script I found. What I could then do is have separate tabs for "Information" and "Notes." Why I'm just thinking about it is because it'd take a good bit of work to make it look that pretty and I don't know if I'll have time until the next time I have some vacation days. That'd be late August, I think. Until then, I at least have a link to further data, if I know that the further data exists, of course .

[kevgermany]

Are you sure there is a "World" model of Max Keilwerth, Kev? World was made by F.X. Hüller, and because Max worked for them, some attribute the model to him. But unless the sax as a Pure Tone stamp, it's not a Max Keilwerth model.

Max did, for example, build President saxophones, before he worked for Hohner. These horns do however, have a Pure Tone stamp, while the Hohners have a Hohner stamp. The World models from Hüller have certain stamping, but I haven't seen any with his Pure Tone label.

I've seen pics of one other, but so long ago I can't remember much. The one that's in the link is not showing enough to see the rest. You may well be right. But from memory the Hüller Worlds I've seen looked a lot different and had normal mouthpieces.

[kevgermany]

3 - I'm goig to have to find that now. I'm sure... I saw one for sale with it's special mouthpiece. But I take Helen's point as well.

5 - I found other links as well as Helen's about the Bergs and R Cartes. Not disputing, just expressing my surprise that these guys had been selling horns.

[kevgermany]

I've seen pics of one other, but so long ago I can't remember much. The one that's in the link is not showing enough to see the rest. You may well be right. But from memory the Hüller Worlds I've seen looked a lot different and had normal mouthpieces.

I'm getting mixed up between the one I quoted and the world saxes with a globe on them. Sorry.

Pete, Yes, does look like a missing micro-tuner. Especially when I go to Helen's and see the others, some with the special mouthpiece. (Wasn't wrong on that bit, just it isn't clarinet like...).

[pete]

6 - As an afterthought, maybe need a better way of tracing the mergers/demergers over the years. Like JK. (How????? )

After playing around for about 1.5 hours, I was able to beat the Menu Bar thingy into submission and came up with a new format, as you can see in the screenshot.

However ...

• I'd have to come up with some way to put a menu item into that grey box for something like, "Pete's Comments," that would then open a window that'd have, well, my comments. That's not terribly difficult to do, but it is extremely time consuming if you wanna do it for 110+ manufacturers.
  
• I can see a benefit of doing this style for those of you out there that don't have (at least) 1080p displays. While what you see is just a screenshot from my screen, the overall width of the display is flexible. The size of the menu (grey) box is the only thing that's a fixed size ... primarily because I can't see a place to change the size. It's in the CSS someplace; I just can't find it.
  
• You or someone (like TTT) might ask why I'm playing around in all this HTML when I could do something in Java, JavaScript, HTML5, Flash or something else. The answer to that is compatibility. Y'know how I have Gallery 3 as my picture gallery software? The designers found out that a good percentage of folks still use -- and I get weak in the knees just saying this -- Internet Explorer 6. (You can take a look at this to see the current percentage.) I'm testing Windows 8 with Internet Explorer 10. IE 6 came out in 2002. Another way of saying that I learned my lesson after using a nice bit of Javascript on my Buffet pages on saxpics.com which no longer works. Hey, a large percentage of folks might have really old stuff, but a lot of us have the new stuff.
  
• Finally, while I work on and with computers for the majority of the day, I'd rather not have to spend that much time on coding. Using the new format I picture here more than doubles the time it takes for me to add an entry.

If I had all the time in the world, I'd love to do it, though. Seriously. I really enjoy telling people about these horns.

EDIT: I forgot to mention something. The models are in their own cell because you can't search for them if they're in the menu.

[Helen]

5. That's from Helen's website. You're definitely right that I missed the new horns. Will fix.

There are 2 different companies that we're talking about here. The older stencils you have in are chart are right. They were made by VEB Blechblas- und Signal-Instrumenten-Fabrik--makers of the blue label B&S horns. The newer ones like the Guardala, Chicago Jazz, Allora, etc, were made by Vogtländische Musikinstrumentenfabrik GmbH. This company made the B&S Medusa, 2001, etc. You just have to add it. The second company was formed in 1989.

I haven't had a chance to write the histories of these brands yet. They've been in the "to do" list for some time. Things will be a lot clearer when that's done.

[kevgermany]

There are 2 different companies that we're talking about here. The older stencils you have in are chart are right. They were made by VEB Blechblas- und Signal-Instrumenten-Fabrik--makers of the blue label B&S horns. The newer ones like the Guardala, Chicago Jazz, Allora, etc, were made by Vogtländische Musikinstrumentenfabrik GmbH. This company made the B&S Medusa, 2001, etc. You just have to add it. The second company was formed in 1989.

I haven't had a chance to write the histories of these brands yet. They've been in the "to do" list for some time. Things will be a lot clearer when that's done.

yes, the one morphed (sort of) into the other after the fall of communism.

[pete]

After playing around for about 1.5 hours, I was able to beat the Menu Bar thingy into submission and came up with a new format, as you can see in the screenshot ....

I've actually decided to go with a modified version of what I posted above. Main reason: I was starting to get a few too many INFO links and it started making things look bad. It'll take a while to convert, still.

[pete]

Oh, I'll clean up this thread, eventually :.)

Anyhow, I've been playing around again. Current result. What's supposed to happen is, when you click a button ("Information," etc.) a bit of JavaScript runs and pops up what will be another page, with more information or links, etc. (I just have some random websites as links, right now). The JavaScript is trying to put the pop-up dead center of your main monitor. I've tested it on the newest Windows versions of Chrome, Opera, Firefox, Safari and Internet Explorer.

The center column that has all the model information is actually a clickable box and does the same bit of JavaScript that the button does. I was envisioning putting in some serial numbers and/or date ranges in the pop-up. There's one problem, though: doesn't work in Internet Explorer 9.

I mentioned somewhere that I really hate writing code because if I'm going to write code for a website, I want it to be W3C compliant because that means it should work on everyone's browser. My code failed and that's probably the reason it doesn't work in Internet Explorer. I also know exactly where and what the problem is. I also know that if I fix it, other code gets slaughtered. I also didn't want to do JavaScript because there's no guarantee some web browser implements all JavaScript functions or implements them differently.

So, if any of ya'll want to take a look at my code and come up with something better, please e-mail or PM me.

[kevgermany]

Page came up for me, but the links went nowhere. IE8/XP Pro.... Could be something in the IE settings locked by our admins here.