Bass clarinet vs tenor sax

[Carl H.]

I've only played bass clarinet in bands when specifically requested to do so for pieces with important parts. I've played tenor sax in a number of bands as the tenor guy. The typical tenor part I've encountered is generally very boring and poorly written, but occasionally there is a gem thrown in.

On an average concert band concert (Yeah, define average) do the bass clarinet parts tend to be as poorly written as tenor sax parts or, from the players perspective, are they more interesting?

Do they also typically end up doubling with the bassoon?

I'm trying to decide on continuing as a player in the local concert band vs dropping it entirely. The conductor is a real piece of work, so I will not be asking which part he'd prefer I play, as I don't want to be one of his highly abused percussionists, and there are some "territorial" players in the sections I'd prefer to be playing in. I'm playing purely as a means to get out of the house and play something on a weekly basis for conditioning purposes. Playing at home instead is not an option and there are no local college facilities to use either.

 

[tictactux]

I've only played bass clarinet in bands when specifically requested to do so for pieces with important parts. I've played tenor sax in a number of bands as the tenor guy. The typical tenor part I've encountered is generally very boring and poorly written, but occasionally there is a gem thrown in.

On an average concert band concert (Yeah, define average) do the bass clarinet parts tend to be as poorly written as tenor sax parts or, from the players perspective, are they more interesting?

Do they also typically end up doubling with the bassoon?

That all depends on who did the actual arrangement of a piece. Typically each "exotic" part (eg bassoon, alto and bass clarinet, bari sax) is covered by another instrument so a band with less players still can perform that piece satisfactorily.

This year, I with my bass share parts of parts (one or more phrases) with trombone, bassoon, tenor sax and bari sax. I once have a duet together with an alto sax. And some piece is downright boring, I play "ooom" while the alto saxes play "pah-pah". I don't think this is fundamentally different from the tenor player's experience. But I am the only bass and my director makes me feel important.
One thing that definitely is different is the seating. You end up center stage in front of the tubas, or at the far end "somewhere". You have no proper section, you might sit with bassoon and french horn (ie the marginalia section). For me it's very important after whom I can orient myself when playing, that has been a real challenge this year. I'd need more ears, more than I dearly need more pinkies!

 

[SOTSDO]

Push comes to shove, I'd opt for the bass clarinet in concert band music. The tonal color of the bass clarinet is more unique than "just another saxophone", and has universal application in areas where you are looking for mysterious sounds.

That's not to say that the tenor saxophone is incapable of projecting such feelings (when properly written for by the arranger). It's just that concert band music is (for the greatest part) unimaginative when it comes to using the tonal color available.

Aside from this, I would also say that inserting yourself into a concert band on a "harmony" instrument is setting yourself up for failure. While I can deal with a wide range of music, from classical to country and everything in between, I have seldom been happy with playing in concert bands. The endless accompaniment parts ("opmh" and "phah" only begins to describe them) are part of the problem, but also the "written to a contest specification" nature of much of concert band music is as responsible. You know that you're heading for discomfort when you see a piece like "Blaze of Glory, a concert march" landing on your stand.

There is plenty of decent concert band stuff out there, not all of it Sousa arrangements, but most community based concert bands are cash-poor and thus unable to purchase much in the way of new tunes. Thus, they cycle through the same old stuff that they got on the cheap sometime in the past, and add new stuff only through the charitable donations of local band directors.

No, if I were still looking for a place to play, I'd go with a community orchestra (less phony music) or a jazz group long before I'd darken the doors of a concert band. IN the last thirty five years, I may have helped out such groups in an emergency (chiefly on bass clarinet or baritone sax) but never played in them on a regular basis. Of course, it's different for someone who plays (say) baritone horn, and I would imagine that most brass players not into jazz style charts would prefer one as well.

And, these days there is always the alternative (poor though it may be) of the Music Minus One approach. Not much there for bass clarinet, admittedly, but you could always over-build your bass clarinet skills by playing the regular clarinet repertory.

And, you could do what I did - get a cheap library to start (our original tunes, all serial numbered with odd whole numbers (1, 3, 5, 7, 9...; for further explanation see my recommendations on creating a music library elsewhere on this service) are all "jazz" standards, virtually all instrumentals, and for the large part trash) and then build on it for a band that you create. You would be surprised how many like-minded folks you can find out there.

For my "new" arrangements, I pay about $45.00 each. (This is either for a custom chart, or for something similar from Hal Leonard or Lush Life that you could pick up on line or from a music jobber.) This gets me five sax parts, four trombone parts, four trumpet parts and four rhythm parts, plus the vocal chart. To make that arrangement work, I need a minimum of 4334 plus the singer. That's fifteen folks, not counting yourself. A lot less work than putting a concert band together, where the minimum number is more in the thirty range plus the director. And, this smaller group has the added advantage of being commercially viable should you choose to go that route.

Also, you can use a smaller rehearsal space, and will not need to have access to tympani, bass drums and other such equipment.

Just a thought, and I've left out a lot of the other work involved (including training vocalists, the hardest overall part of the job, even harder than the marketing), but it is a viable alternative path.

 

[Gandalfe]

I play whatever we don't have from sop to bass sax and some bass clarinet. It seems whenever I start in an empty section I find replacements and move. On my poor bass clarinet chops became quickly overcome by the infusion of three full-time bass clarinet players. I hate playing tenor so I found two players to fill that slot. We needed a baritone sax and within a year I found my replacement. Now I'm playing alto sax which is my primary love.

Suzy does the same thing for clarinet playing Eb sopranino, Bb, C, and A soprano, alto and bass clarinet. I even got a really good clarinetist to play my contrabass clarinet for the community band this year.

I don't play for dysfunctional bands if I can help it. I sub a lot, or I should say as much as I want, so I can afford to turn down gigs with lousy directors or nasty band mates. And I've started two Big Bands from scratch, handing them off to a board, a sax quartet, and a jazz combo.

I say this not as an ego trip thang but because I'm never the best player in the band. I'd much rather be in a band where I'm the weakest player than the strongest. But I do have organizational skills like crazy. So I get to play with some very talented people because they'd rather just show up and play.

Maybe that would be of interest to you especially if you like picking the music the band plays, love enticing new talent into your band, and every once in a while, playing a concert that makes it all worth while. Remember, it's hard to fly like an eagle if you are surrounded by turkeys.

 

[Carl H.]

Remember, it's hard to fly like an eagle if you are surrounded by turkeys.

Aye, there's the rub. There is a lawyer who insists he is a bassoonist whom I would prefer to never share a melodic line with ever again.

The whole reason I'm sticking with this band has to do in some part with friendship, but mostly with face time. I need to have an instrument in my face more than I would get if I weren't in the band. I play principal clarinet in the symphony and tenor sax in a big band and a small band.

I'm currently on the board of the band and encouraging looking for a new conductor. As a group we have a decent library with many good orchestral transcriptions, but we lack a conductor who can handle them. Sadly he was a student of a man I consider a mentor, and I see certain habits he is attempting to emulate, but he lived as a middle school band director and I suspect he was a failure there as well.

I am trying to get a chamber winds group going, as it requires fewer individuals, but lack of depth is a problem. It seems like it may end up as a woodwind quintet with a brass quintet on the side.


As far as the band goes, I'm leaning towards being the stage manager and just practicing in the back room while the band rehearses. It gets me a place to play.

 

[pete]

Insanely good comments in this thread.

I've played bass clarinet and tenor sax, as well, and I think that a bass clarinet played well is one of the nicest sounding things out there, for any kind of music. However, I don't think that Giant Steps would sound all that great on bass clarinet.

> On an average concert band concert (Yeah, define average) do the bass clarinet parts tend to be as poorly written as tenor sax parts?
Yes, this has been my experience. Orchestral work is different, but concert bands, such as in larger high schools, have bass clarinet parts that are almost always doubling something. Not to say that the parts aren't as fun to play as on tenor sax, but they double.

A tenor sax part doesn't always double something in a concert band, in my experience, but it does it often enough that I wonder about the tonal quality. A bass clarinet sounds better on a bassoon part than a tenor sax, for instance. Arguably the tenor sax sounds OK when doubling a baritone/euphonium/trombone part, but I think it sounds better on bari sax. 4th French Horn? I suppose tenor sax would win, but I don't think it sounds that great.

I played a lot of bass clarinet parts doubling tuba.

Bass clarinet parts specifically written for bass clarinet in jazz ensembles sound awesome.

Shall we get on a side topic of Eb alto clarinet, just to provoke SOTSDO?

 

[Carl H.]

I dunno bout that one. The "nerd" factor of being seen with one let alone playing one is just too much to bear. (We won't mention folks who own AND play them.)

If either jazz group did regular rehearsals the problem would be solved, but they are about the gig, not keeping in shape. The symphony provides a workout, when I do play, but the problem is there are sections which need time as a group, and (aside from a certain lawyer) the WW are reasonably musical and proficient enough to work out our own problems on the side. It is the extended sitting without playing, except for the performance.

In my previous life/ alter ego I am a professional violinist. I'm used to seeing a lot of action in a concert, but as a section player. In performance, the ww solo parts seem so much more rewarding, with the trade off of sitting around while the reeds dry out or extended filler as in the Sibeleus symphony we did this fall.

I can go without playing the violin for months and then pick it up and do a day (8 hours) of playing without any real issues. Wind instruments are not nearly so forgiving. If I take 2 weeks off I can really feel it. This is the whole reason for this thread. I need a regular gig to keep in shape. The symphony doesn't give enough of a workout to keep in shape except for brief solo passages where NSF chops really show themselves. Since it is 1 to a part I don't want to be the weakest link in the performance.

 

[tictactux]

I dunno bout that one. The "nerd" factor of being seen with one let alone playing one is just too much to bear. (We won't mention folks who own AND play them.)

Easy now. I might be using my Alto clarinet for a spontaneous Christmas music busking gig as there might be no Alto saxes around. Just to add a different timbre and something exotic to look at. Plus, ever since picking up bass, I also sound better on Alto.

 

[Carl H.]

Well...
Is it an SML alto clarinet? I think you and I are the only SML clarinet players I know of, which means we are obviously too distinguished and cool to need ever worry about nerdiness. (Though I wouldn't be caught dead with one of those roller jobs (mostly because I've never seen one other than your pictures)).

 

[tictactux]

Well...
Is it an SML alto clarinet? I think you and I are the only SML clarinet players I know of, which means we are obviously too distinguished and cool to need ever worry about nerdiness.

Mine has "Bundy" on it. Might be an SML stencil, who knows.
I'm not much of a brand person. If it plays right it is right...

(Though I wouldn't be caught dead with one of those roller jobs (mostly because I've never seen one other than your pictures)).

Those rollers are about the coolest thing I ever had in a clarinet. When sax and German players can have them, why not me? (it must be said that it doesn't have an LH Eb lever).

 

[Carl H.]

Mine has "Bundy" on it. Might be an SML stencil, who knows.

Al or Peggy, I wonder...

(it must be said that it doesn't have an LH Eb lever).

Pffft, obviously a chinese student instrument then.


What does the case look like? My 5 star is an alligator case.

 

[tictactux]

What does the case look like? My 5 star is an alligator case.

Mine is an aluminium flight case, aptly dubbed "the beautycase". Not original, but suggested so by Richard Scotto as the original got lost somewhere in a time warp.

 

[SOTSDO]

I'm not a big fan of rollers on either clarinets or saxophones, but then again with all of my time on Boehm clarinets (and full Boehm ones at that) it may just be that I've been so acclimated to R-L-R situations that they never really are needed. My Conn alto has them on right side and left, but I still tend to lift and place my fingers in anything but the fastest of passages, and I'm never really aware of them being there.

My main maintenance and repair guy up in Saint Louis will add rollers to keys amiable to their installation if you really want them. Being a bassoonist, he's used to such requests as part of the faggotte-fraternity. But, they don't come that cheap.

The ease with which violin playing (and guitar playing and the like) comes back after an extended absence is probably due to the fact that your hands and arms are in constant use whether playing or not, while the facial muscles associated with woodwind embouchures (I like using the word and its derivatives, simply because I have learned (after long association and much correction) how to spell it correctly) are not called upon to contort on a day-to-day basis in the same fashion as they are when playing.

After an extended period away from 1) baritone sax playing, 2) bass clarinet playing and/or 3) bassoon playing, I find that i have some pain and distress in 1) my left thumb and little finger; 2) my left little finger and my right thumb; and 3) my entire left hand and my right thumb and little finger, respectively.

If playing baritone in the "standing up for three hours, playing straight forward in the funk and rock" position, I can add back and right should problems to the mix.

In all cases, the problem go away after the first session. No carpal tunnel - yet...

 

[tictactux]

I'm not a big fan of rollers on either clarinets or saxophones (...)

Even a small fan is a fan.

Either an LH Eb lever, or rollers. I have to revert to sliding on my Bundy bass (as it offers neither), and it just isn't the same.

(of course, beating up the composer is another solution, but that specific one's already pushing the daisies)

 

[Ed]

Bass clarinet parts generally seem more interesting in a concert band situation. The tenor parts aren't nearly as bad as the bari parts.

 

[Carl H.]

At least with the Bari you can randomly Honk a low A at a flute player.


With string instruments the big endurance issue is callouses. Without them you become hamburger, FAST. Just for grins, take your left arm and pretend you are holding up and playing a violin for just 5 minutes. See how strong those muscles aren't from regular daily motions? No resting on your leg, moving a fraction of an inch changes the pitch, don't drop your violin now, VIBRATO people VIBRATO!!!


As far as rollers go, since discovering the Christmas chimney routine (place your finger uspide your nose) I've had little love for rollers. It's amazing how fast you can go from Eb to C with this technique.

 

[SOTSDO]

I have used the nose oil on occasion when using a loaner bass, but going the full Boehm route on all of my principal clarinets avoids that completely.

The problem with oiling things up is that it doesn't allow for perfect "control" at all times. What you gain in sliding, you lose in sure "fingerness". A compromise, just like everything else.

 

[bari_sax_diva]

I play in two community concert bands, both for the same conductor. I do it as a way to help keep up my reading chops on doubles and as such, I tend to avoid playing sax unless it's a performance situation and they REALLY need me there. The conductor is sympathetic, and until I started playing alto in one band (allowing the lead guy to switch to flute for a while), I've been lucky enough to move all over the place in the woodwinds.

At any rate, I've landed on bass clarinet in the larger of the two bands, and I'm actually enjoying it a lot. The parts do include a lot of oom-pahs, but being a low-reed person anyway I must have a higher tolerance for that. My section-mates are the baboons (one of which is a contra-alto clarinet on the 2nd part), and the alto clarinet, and there is NO primadonna behavior back there--everyone is totally laid-back. About once every rehearsal or two there's a part where I'm anchoring a woodwind choir (or the odd solo), and that's where I get to show off a bit. Filling out the bottom of some fat chord is soooooo cool. Especially around low D-C. Best of all, I get to remind myself what all the extra keywork on this beast does so that way I don't panic when I have to pick it up in a big band.

As Terry mentioned, if you can get connected with a decent orchestra there are a couple great pieces that include bass clarinet. I *highly* recommend Still's "African-American Suite." Parts for four, count 'em, FOUR clarinets, and some GREAT solo moments for bass clarinet. Definitely worth the search for that perfect reed.

 

[SOTSDO]

And, in community orchestra organizations, there are often (in the pops selections) some pretty choice sax parts, parts where they already have a skilled sax player (you) there to play them. Plus, there's always Gershwin...

 

[Carl H.]

Yesterday we did the Wedding, and Troika from Kijé. I played 1st clarinet and the sax solo part. Quick change, but I've seen worse changes in pits.

Next, the old castle . . .