Late model Mark VI tenor

Al Stevens

Al Stevens

Late model Mark VI tenor (and, now, low register tenor tests)

A while ago I tried to sell a Mark VI tenor for a friend. Here's a link to that thread.

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=81731

That says all there is to say about that horn up until today. It's mine now. (I might have sold it if I were a better photographer.)

A few weeks ago I was having some trouble with low notes on the sax, so I took it to my neighborhood tech. His advice was if I plan to sell it to fix a few leaks, if I plan to keep it, overhaul it. I chose the latter.

I got it back today and it made me almost cry it's so nice to play. One of my tests for a great playing tenor is the ease with which I can play a subtone G1 followed by a subtone Bb1 without difficulty. There is a passage in "Don't Blame Me" where I like to play that sequence. Specifically the 1st 2 notes of the 5th measure or elsewhere where the melody repeats that phrase.

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The new/old VI passed the test most of the time. Then, for the heck of it, I put a Ref 54 neck on it. (Interestingly, the lacquer color matches.) The note sequence plays without effort now.

The vintage '74 VI blew away the myths I've heard that these horns are somehow less than the 5-digit vintage. I have a 5-digit VI, which plays very nicely. The '74 is every bit the player the '56 is.

As a side issue, the Ref 54 that contributed the neck blows much better with an aftermarket (Barone) neck than it does with its own. Less stuffy in the upper register. Yet the VI doesn't like the Barone neck at all. Go figure. My tech tells me its mostly a personal thing. Other players would get different results.
 
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I find that to true for many of my instruments and combinations. I also find that say a Barone neck plays well on one Ref 54 it won't necessarily on another. But getting a horn the way you like it is really nice. I luv to pick up an instrument and just start playing it.

As I look around me I have a soprillo, soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone saxes plus a recorder out. The alto and tenor are Ref series, 54 and 36 respectively and they are perhaps the finest instruments for an alto and tenor sax that I have ever played.

I loathed Mark VIs for years because the specious intonation issues which probably sez more about me than the instrument. With the new Selmer Ref series, all those complaints are gone.
 
Al Stevens said:
The vintage '74 VI blew away the myths I've heard that these horns are somehow less than the 5-digit vintage. I have a 5-digit VI, which plays very nicely. The '74 is every bit the player the '56 is.
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I mentioned on saxpics.com that if the SBA was a more popular horn, we'd be havening debates that the 1952 models were better than 1953's or some such tripe.

I've not played as many VIs as some folks have, but all I've played have been excellent horns. Except the sopranos, but I suck at playing straight soprano (I'm halfway decent on a curved one).

I tend to think that there is *some* veracity to the statement that one vintage of VI is "nicer" in some way than another vintage, due primarily to the fact that Selmer tweaked the design over the years -- and I bet that for some people, their sound/intonation is better on that horn.

However, I don't think that any vintage of VI could be considered "bad".

"Avoid those 1974 VIs. They were all junk. But, hey, if you have one, I'll pay you $500 for it! That's a great deal, particularly comnsidering how junky they are, in comparison to the 1955 version ...."

Hey, I heard a lot of folks say that low A altos were junk. Yeah. Send your low A altos to me. I don't mind. I'll even pay shipping!
 
I'm familiar with this series mark6, my new alto, purchased in March of 1975 had the serial # of 226,218. I bought the horn from Charles Ponte Music in NYC and paid $585. I played the horn until Dec 2003, when I sold it after buying the reference alto that I'm playing now.

My late model 6 was an incredible instrument. I owned the horn at a time when I was fortunate to be working commercial recording sessions (the sound of Philadelphia) during the day, and jazz gigs at night, many times racking up 12 to 16 hours a day on the horn. Plus, I was compulsive in the wood shed. So this horn got a lot of wear and tear. I can remember looking at the rods that ran between the bell and the body, the rods for the low Bb, B, and C#, the bell and bow keys. I remember seeing a VERY LARGE amount of play between these rods and the posts they connected to at the bottom of the horn. Saul Fromkin overhauled the horn for me, and told me that swedging would take care of that. And it did. The cups that held the settings for the pearls were worn so thin that one of the pearls, the C of the left hand, actually fell out, having nothing to hold it in. I saved the pearl, but when I tried to hand it to Saul so that he could properly repair it without gluing it back in, he dropped it, and it rolled under his workbench. So much for that. He glued in a cheap replacement pearl (I was trying to avoid that) and sent me on my way. The horn was never dented or dropped, never relacquered. But I played a lot of notes on that horn.

The funny thing about this horn, and this is the truth, is that I felt that it was still breaking in when I sold it 28 years after I bought it. It still held near perfect intonation, had a beautiful piercing tone, and a very responsive, springy action. I could have kept that horn, could have played it tonight with no problems, but I was basically tired of it, I guess. My reference has it covered, but the ref out performs all of the 6's I've compared it to, including my gold plated 58,000 alto. So I'm happy, I love my ref.

So if your 226,000 horn is anything like the one I owned, you got yourself a good horn.

Rambling over, time to get into bed.
 
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Horns are such a personal thing but a great playing VI is always a special horn. The envy of most players.
 
I had some production changes information on the VIs - especially the neck changes throughout the years. I never fully documented it but have just a bit in the Selmer-Paris section here.
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/snsax.htm#Selmer(Paris)

Truthfully, my favorite is the SBA tenor and alto (or earlier VI altos) But I really like my VII alto and tenor (much cheaper to buy too). The tenor requires a mod to the body octave pip to make it play the way you want (a monster player to a more controlled player by the size of the opening).

But fine VIs are like wine. Of course, many of them are old and many are out of whack too. So if i were to buy a VI (or SBA or any older horn) i'd get it completely overhauled to my specs. But any vintage VI, as long as it's set up right will be a great player.

and of course, various mpcs will make various horns sound various ways .. of course, completely variable =-)

but for me. Selmer horns have that certain "core" sound and feel that I can't find from other brands of that era.
 
The only real -- as in "something you could really identify and confirm one way or another" -- regarding the VI is why some of them have serial numbers that begin with an "N" and some with and "M".

* It's a definite that the VI had some design changes over the years. IMO, the SBA actually had more.
* Yes, I love the anecdote that 1950's Mark VI were made out of melted down artillery shells, but so many people have pointed out how ludicrous that is.
* I've shot down the myth that there is a certain serial number range or finish that happens to be consistently more valuable or less valuable.
* There were at least three, but probably more, necks available for the VI. There were at least three available for the BA (the teakettle vent is my personal favorite because it looks kewl) and that means that probably at least that many for the SBA.

+1 on the overhaul. A lot of people tend to say that a vintage horn is "bad" because they've play tested something that's been run over by a tank and leaks like a sieve. If the horn was a decent make/model when it was new, chances are that it can be made that way again. If you throw enough $ at it. (This is also why, when people write me and say they have a VI or some other popular make, I tell them that there's no profit in having the horn overhauled and then sold: sell it as is and let the buyer overhaul it however he wants.)

All that being said, I really like VIs. I think VIIs are really nice, but my wife's 1981 Omega is better than the very few VIIs I've played.
 
pete said:
The only real -- as in "something you could really identify and confirm one way or another" -- regarding the VI is why some of them have serial numbers that begin with an "N" and some with and "M".
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Do you know why that is Pete? I've always been curious, and I don't think I've ever read an explanation. Then there are also those than have no letters at all.


For example, my VIs represent all varieties mentioned:
  • Soprano: N 266XXX (1977)
  • Alto: M 240XXX (1975)
  • Tenor: M 198XXX (1972)
  • Bari: 147XXX (1967)
 
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just in the VII series there are the M and N series. At some point i did some investigating the differences but lost it. and every time i get a horn in i want to compare it to my M VII tenor or my N VII alto .. but i always forget.

I'd love to buy a N VII tenor just for comparison !! one of these days.


Helen - is your alto a M VII ??

Pete - i've also played some Omegas - they are very nice. I wouldn't mind having a set. I was looking for an Omega to replace my Couf tenor until i ran across the current VII.
 
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Understanding what went (and goes) on with Selmer Paris is an uphill battle. I have a bass clarinet that (according to Selmer Paris) simply doesn't exist, and one of my soprano clarinets is of a similar nature. And, don't get me started on the pro metal models...

Truth be told, they have more important things to do than to satisfy the curiosity of end users who encounter their horns second hand. Any public information that they provide should be considered a gift from heaven, and treated accordingly.

When I was a young sprout, and had a horn over in RVN which a less than honest trumpet player sold while I was out in the field, Selmer moved heaven and earth for me to prove that the horn had been mine in the first place - enough evidence to get the guy who "bought it" to give it back to me for the specified price. He was a chaplain's assistant, and must have had a few scruples somewhere. Ultimately, it cost me $300 to retrieve it...not the end of the workd, but still pretty pricey for the time and place.)

Selmer did all of this via long distance telephone (through the MARS system), and at very inconvenient times (to the point of having someone at the office early in the morning as I recall). That makes up (to me) for a lot of non-responsiveness these days.
 
I own a mk6 alto, serial# 58,xxx that has an M hand written (not stamped) in front of the serial#. I've seen a few late SBA horns which also have the M hand scratched on the horn. So I'm thinking this M business started during the SBA model run.
 
SteveSklar said:
anyone know when the M tubes started .. approximately ?
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I'm not 100% positive that M/N stands for "different tube/bore". No one's been able to conclusively prove that one way or another.

I've never bothered calling Selmer to ask.

BTB, Terry, Selmer also denied the existence of curved sopranos. I have pictures of about a half-dozen of them. I think that they denied the existence of C melodies, too. Again, I've got lotsa pics of those.

Of course, this doesn't even touch on the fact that their serial number to model chart on their website(s) is woefully incorrect and leaves off several models.

I also have an e-mail that someone got from Selmer (allegedly) that identified a Martin (or some such; I don't remember exactly) as a Selmer-made horn. A Mark VI, IIRC. I'll have to look for that e-mail. It was amusing.
 
BTB, Terry, Selmer also denied the existence of curved sopranos. I have pictures of about a half-dozen of them. I think that they denied the existence of C melodies, too. Again, I've got lotsa pics of those.
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Denial is a bit harsh of a word to use for this. Just think, your inquiry to the rustic yet charming offices of Selmer Paris is most likely going to be answered by one of two different people:

1 ) A crusty old, Galois-smoking Frenchman in a blue smock and beret, who probably knows a lot about what happened when but has no written records to back his memory up (and not enough time to do the looking, since he's going home at the end of his six hour day and has to stop to pick up a bottle of vin ordinaire and a baugette to go with the afternoon's pot a feu, or

2 ) A young girl on the office staff with her black hair held back by a ribbon just so, and whose mother was still in her infancy when the last Mark VI came down the line, and whose thoughts are tending to the bundle of fresh flowers and a bottle of vin ordinaire and a baugette to go with the afternoon's pot a feu, this to share with her hot young lover who is really into technopop, and who has used a Mark VI amplifier at one point before going totally digital some time in the 1990's.

Either party is not going to be 100% conversant with the glory days of Selmer Paris, and you will get a half hearted attempt out of them at best.

The way I see it, serial numbers on horns have three (no, check that) four principal reasons for existence:

1 ) Sales and theft information. Sales, so they know that M5544878 went out to the USA on March 17, 1975, and not sneaked out the door into the basket on the back of Marc's bicycle. Theft, so if a whole batch gets lifted, they can still say which ones

2 ) A convenient way to order spare parts, even though most still require hand fitting upon receipt

3 ) Theft prevention ("Mr. Shylock, I know that you run an honest pawn shop here, but that particular serial numbered horn is mine, and I have the paperwork and police report to prove it")

And, a long way fourth:

4) "Yeah, this is a pre-M654490 tenor - they were made out of shell casings from the main gun on the Char B1 bis, and they are so much more = oh, I don't know - resonant than later horns. What's the serial on your tenor? M665490, you say? Oh well, it's still a Selmer"
 
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SOTSDO said:
4) "Yeah, this is a pre-M654490 tenor - they were made out of shell casings from the main gun on the Char B1 bis, and they are so much more = oh, I don't know - resonant than later horns. What's the serial on your tenor? M665490, you say? Oh well, it's still a Selmer"
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Yar. The M665490 has bad mojo. No one likes those. Tell you whut -- and I'm cutting you a great deal -- I'll take it off your hands for $500, no questions asked.

(Of course, that serial number is a tad high for a VI ....)

:p
 
I did, of course, snatch the faux serial numbers out of the air. But, I see than my point was well taken.

People who buy horns as "investments" are in the same pool as are women who buy expensive clothing, shoes and accessories as "investments". In both cases, you are welcome to try the approach, but you get far more out of using the horns/clothing than you ever will gain a return on your "investment".

But, that's just me...
 
"Investment" is actually quite different. In your example, Terry, if I sold my wife's clothes, I'd probably only get a couple $ for each item. If I sold her Selmer Omega, I'd get upwards of $1500.

I've discussed the concept of "investing" in saxophones and there is a quasi-market. The best example is the Mark VI, which is one of the very few saxophones that have appreciated -- as an over-all average, that is. Only by a little.

Now, if you want to buy a good horn that will retain its value and may actually go up a bit, Selmer's probably it. SML was a great find and the promotion it got from Fred Cicetti and me bumped prices on those up to a high of about $2500 for a really good shape Gold Medal "Mk. I", but the bottom has fallen out of that market. Even Selmers are "correcting". Conn 6/10M Standard ("Naked Lady") prices have come down significantly. I even think vintage curved sopranos are down. I still think Buffet Dynaction/SuperDynactions are undervalued, along with most pre-SX90 Keilwerths.

However, even if your VI becomes valued at $0, at least you can play a gig and try to get more cash!
 
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