Akustik, C.A. Wunderlich, & A Bunch Of Other German Brands

pete

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
I was cruising eBay.ch tonight. I found an interesting horn.

It's more striking than beautiful, IMO. It's an Akustik from VEB (see Helen's galleries of VEB stuff). It's striking because the "pearl" inlay is RED. I do think it's original: I've seen many horns with the "screw on" pearls and I've seen many other horns with various colored stones or glass in place of the pearls.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've got an Akustik tenor, really tatty, waiting for a rebuild. Not a full pearl. The key touches are semi-transparent deep red plastic. Most of the others I've seen on ebay are like that, I've seen one with white 'pearls', I've no idea if they were original or replacements. Afik, the red touches were standard.

I haven't seen a full pearl one before. I agree, the 'pearls' are original, but probably plastic. I'm guessing they'd look darker in life than they do on the photo.

Looks like a couple of problems with this instrument - the neck brace is missing (just like mine) and part of the octave mech is also missing/bent, not sure. Funnily enough I've bought from this seller.

On Akustik, one ebay post I read a while ago said there were only a couple of thousand saxes made by VEB with the Akustik name. No idea how accurate that is.

There's another one listed on ebay.de:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/B-Tenorsaxop...500097?pt=Blasinstrumente&hash=item4603dc9b81
the pearls on that are more usual in appearance. And this ad. repeats the approx 2000 made story. I'd guess the full pearls model is pretty rare...
 
I think it's possible that the "pearls" aren't plastic. Cut glass, perhaps. Dolnet used to do that in place of standard pearls or screw-adjustable felts on the keyguards. Here's a decent pic of one of them. I've seen a couple other colors, as well.

Plastic is a possibility, of course. If you assume that the Akustik is a 1930's-era horn, using plastic -- probably Bakelite -- was a new thing. Hey, I absolutely love the Lucite keyguards on the Keilwerth Toneking/New King and stencils, and those horns were made after plastic became old hat. (The DABICO Keilwerth stencil that's attached is also for sale on eBay.ch.)
 
That link's to a Dolnet lol.

Akustiks were made post WWII. Cos the VEB name was used from '48ish. Old design, but made later. Could be celluloid, don't really know, but they use/used a lot of it for accordian building.

Lucite is another name for perspex, which was widely used in WWII, so the pearls could be a red perspex as well. Intriguing.

There's a really useful post on the Akustiks here: http://www.museum-markneukirchen.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=487

2nd post is it...

In short the poster (Dr Weller, member of staff, possibly curator of the museum) says that from his own research Akustiks Altos from middle of 1948, Tenors from 1950 and about 2000 made to 1950. The book he quotes from Dullat is a recognised history. From the serial number (assuming Akustik had their own series´) it's a late one so you'd guess it was one of the last made, assuming Dullat's research is correct.

Would love the 'Dabico'. Aren't that many Angel Wing baris around, either. Darned thing is in Germany as well. Just as well I'm broke, it's divorce material.
 
kevgermany said:
That link's to a Dolnet lol.
Click to expand...

Pete said:
Cut glass, perhaps. Dolnet used to do that in place of standard pearls or screw-adjustable felts on the keyguards. Here's a decent pic of one of them.
Click to expand...
In other words, it's supposed to be a link to a Dolnet :p.

The DABICO (Dayton Band Instruments Company -- thanks, Groovekiller) bari is a Keilwerth stencil. DABICO has always had interesting stencils made for them. However, I definitely +1 the idea of buying that horn: I know it's a good player

The perspex idea is interesting. I've no clue about it either way.

I've wanted to get that book by Dullat for awhile. Never worked up enough desire to spend the cash. I do know it's not entirely accurate -- I'm not, either, so no worries -- but it's got a lot of pics and a lot of info to look into.
 
It's interesting, because I'd never seen a "full pearl" -- full plastic or whatever-- Acoustic. Thanks for that find Pete. It's great.

I've always assume that the Acoustic horns were the same as VEB's Weltklang--meaning that they were an intermediate horn. As opposed to the B&S, AKA blue label, pro horns that they built. I'll have to take a closer look at these pics and compare/contrast them to the Weltklang to see for sure. Kevin, do you know for sure?

Re: the DABICO bari, that thing has been for sale for months now. I wonder why it hasn't sold. For a while it was over priced, but now I'm not sure. It was on the German eBay site, and on the US on too IIRC. In wonder if the store has dropped its price. Proper photos would help their cause too!
 
It is at almost $2900 US. That's a tad -- and I do mean "a tad" -- high, even if you figure in the European markup on instruments. As an example, saxshop.nl has a couple around that price and one for considerably less. I might want to take my cash and go to a dealer that gives me a warranty and I can try before I buy.

You're definitely right on the picture thing. I can only see one side of the horn, so I don't know how nice it is on the other side. However, one would *think* that if the gigantic plastic wing is intact, the original owner took good care of the horn.
 
No idea on the quality of the Akustik saxes, but a couple of owners seem to like them (google the German forums). I just know the brand was dropped following a merger.

I was speaking to an accordian builder in summer last year at the instrument museum open day in late summer. He told me that post-war the accordian companies were nationalised and later forced into a single company. His take was that it had been beneficial as there'd been too much competition in the poor post WWII market. Afik the same happened with the other instrument makers including saxes. Akustik disappeared about 1952, as a result of one of the mergers. Incidentally it looks as if many/most of these saxes had white, non-resonator pads, mine were hand made/sewn up at the back, but unusable due to age. And they used sealing wax, not shellac to stick the things in. Sealing wax does have shellac as a component, but it's not pure. Amati also used it for a long time.

On the Bari, in Germany any dealer using distance selling has to give an unconditional return option and the details are in the German ad. Didn't look in detail, but it looks as if the same is in the swiss ad. (Basically 1 month here, twice the statutary requirement). It also says that the lacquer is mostly gone on the other side (Pete, you're rightly suspicious), and that there are some dents. Says the plastic wing isn't perfect, either. Had a repad in the last couple of years or so. and there are some soldering places where a guard used to be... More photos on request (guess he's trying to keep his ebay costs down). He also says you can test play (by appointment) in Köln (Cologne). So although the price is high, the seller is not as bad as you suspect.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/DABICO-R-R-D...833172?pt=Blasinstrumente&hash=item1c269bdd14
 
Helen said:
It's interesting, because I'd never seen a "full pearl" -- full plastic or whatever-- Acoustic. Thanks for that find Pete. It's great.

I've always assume that the Acoustic horns were the same as VEB's Weltklang--meaning that they were an intermediate horn. As opposed to the B&S, AKA blue label, pro horns that they built. I'll have to take a closer look at these pics and compare/contrast them to the Weltklang to see for sure. Kevin, do you know for sure?
Click to expand...

Helen, I think this link will help, post 442 especially:

http://saxwelt.de/index.php/de/home...t-jemand-hintergruende-zu-dieser-qmarkeq.html

I found a web link to an Akustik with S/n 32xx, and another with 27xx, so the circa 2000 instruments is a little conservative -but the post on page 2 gives more info.
And there's a really early Weltklang here: http://www.saxophon-kuehl.de/index.php?tenor
with red pearls.....
 
Maybe the Akustik stuff would be better in a dedicated thread.

Just a word on VEB - it's a german acronym for Volkseigener Betrieb literally translated as people's enterprise - or better as nationally owned enterprise. And the research today reminded me I'd been using the term wrongly.

In East German times, there were many VEBs, and Weltklang were made by the 'VEB Blechblas- und Signal-Instrumenten-Fabrik', later to be known as B&S, while the Akustiks were made by a post war VEB, 'VEB Sächsische Musikinstrumentenfabrik Klingenthal' that was the successor to the Ernst Hess (Heß) instrument makers. This, along with other VEBs became merged into the 'VEB Blechblas- und Signal-Instrumenten-Fabrik'.
 
I'd be very leery of purchasing any horn over twenty years of age that had parts like wing keyguards and the like. "Pearls" (being small disks that are supported over their entire back) are going to be relatively trouble free, but keyguards and instrument bodies made of most thermoplastics are guaranteed to fail once the plasticizer component leaches out from the plastic.

The crumbling Grafton saxophone isn't a myth - once the plasticizer leaches away from the styrene monomer, it's subject to disintegration with the smallest of impacts.

If a horn (or major structural components of a horn) were to be made of Bakelite, it would be a different story. Bakelite is a thermoset plastic, rather than a thermoplastic like styrene, and it is molded with a completely different process that ensures that (once the form of the object is made and the "plastic" in the mold is cured, that's all she wrote and you are stuck with what you have made, virtually forever.

Against this marvelous property, you have the disadvantages of Bakelite - it's not as colorful as other plastics, it is a lot heavier, and it dulls tone in musical instruments other than the fife.
 
I had a Keilwerth-made Bundy bari from about the same time period as the Keilwerth-made DABICO on the other thread. It only had one of the plastic key guards: the pants-protector one. The other key guards were factory-standard sheet-metal. The plastic guard had some hairline cracks around the screws that connected it to the body, but was otherwise in very good shape. The point being that YMMV.

There are some folks that make not only a sheet-metal replacement for the plastic wing on the Keilwerth New King/Toneking, but plastic guards for it and the beautiful Conn 28M Connstellation, so there are options. Helen might have some dollar figures. Considering that the 28M reproduction looks almost exactly like the original, I wouldn't say "no" to buying a 28M that's missing that key guard only.
 
SOTSDO said:
I'd be very leery of purchasing any horn over twenty years of age that had parts like wing key guards and the like.
Click to expand...

That wouldn't be a turn-off for me. In the last year I bought 2 lovely, and nearly pristine, JK Tonkings from 1957. (An alto and a tenor.) The only thing that was damaged on them was the Lucite angel wing and clothes guard. However, I knew I could get replacement pieces, so I factored that into the price I paid for the horns.

Here's a fun fact many people don't know... JK used metal wings for their Tonekings and The New Kings destined as US exports, and as replacement parts when there were warranty claims. In other words, metal angel wings and clothes guards were not an after-thought on the part of JK. These parts have been around as long as these angel wings have been.

pete said:
I had a Keilwerth-made Bundy bari from about the same time period as the Keilwerth-made DABICO on the other thread. It only had one of the plastic key guards: the pants-protector one. The other key guards were factory-standard sheet-metal. The plastic guard had some hairline cracks around the screws that connected it to the body, but was otherwise in very good shape. The point being that YMMV.
Click to expand...

Both my alto and tenor have the same cracking around the screws on these clothes guards. I don't think anyone's mileage varied. :frown:

pete said:
There are some folks that make not only a sheet-metal replacement for the plastic wing on the Keilwerth New King/Toneking, but plastic guards for it and the beautiful Conn 28M Connstellation, so there are options. Helen might have some dollar figures. Considering that the 28M reproduction looks almost exactly like the original, I wouldn't say "no" to buying a 28M that's missing that key guard only.
Click to expand...

I don't know of anyone who makes Plexiglass or Lucite angel wing replacement parts. I ordered metal wings and clothes guards, because that's all I know that is available, and as I pointed out above, was an OEM part.

My parts arrived yesterday. I ordered them from Gerhard Keilwerth's shop in Nauheim. (His family is continuing to run his business since his death, and has kept his former employees on.) That said, I received an email from a fellow in Vienna who told me that the Julius Keilwerth company still makes these parts as replacement pieces, and that he had ordered replacement angel wings and clothes guards for all his vintage JKs from them. He told me to get a hold of the Buffet Group.

All totalled, the 4 parts, shipping, handling fees in Canada, taxes (both here and in Germany... don't get me going on that one...), and duty, was around $250. Not bad, when I consider that my horns--especially my alto which has all its original accessories, and is 99% intact in the lacquer dep't--are in astounding condition. Furthermore, my tenor has become my main axe, so dropping $125 to bring each horn up to original is not a big deal in my eyes. YMMV, and likely will, but to me, it was an investment in 2 very fine vintage horns.
 
Pete, thanks for bringing back to me the memory of the Keilwerth Bundy bari that I played from about 1964 to 1968. Once you mentioned it, I remembered that plastic pants guard. It was a great playing horn.

And if I'm not mistaken, Bakelite was the material used to make the beautiful cream colored steering wheels and gearshift knobs on the Buick automobiles made from around 1936 until possibly the mid '50s. They had a sort of translucent quality that has always fascinated me.

Julian
 
pete said:
There are some folks that make not only a sheet-metal replacement for the plastic wing on the Keilwerth New King/Toneking, but plastic guards for it and the beautiful Conn 28M Connstellation, so there are options. Helen might have some dollar figures. Considering that the 28M reproduction looks almost exactly like the original, I wouldn't say "no" to buying a 28M that's missing that key guard only.
Click to expand...

Helen said:
I don't know of anyone who makes Plexiglass or Lucite angel wing replacement parts. I ordered metal wings and clothes guards, because that's all I know that is available, and as I pointed out above, was an OEM part.
Click to expand...
http://doctorsax.biz/connstellation_keyguard.htm This says that they're $135.

(He's also got a whole bunch of excellent horns and pics of horns. He also mentions my websites a time or two, so g'head and buy something from him :))

I can't find the link for the Keilwerth ones, ATM. 'Course if you have a friend with a 3D printer and you have the dimensions of the keyguard, you're in bizness. I'm relatively sure that you could find someone on the website I referenced that would be able to do it for you, too.
 
I don't know if this (the making of these vintage parts) is something JK advertises. It was a fellow I know from Germany who was friends with Gerhard, who told me I should order from his shop. At the time, I thought it was Gerhard's shop that was making them as reproductions. However, in my correspondence with Gerhard's widow, it became clear that when I ordered them from her, she placed an order from somewhere else, and they were custom-made at the time. She didn't say who made them or where in Germany that occurred. As I was waiting for her to write to me and let me know that she had shipped my order, I received an email from the fellow in Vienna, telling me that JK still makes the parts.

If you were to have a friend make them for you, I think the hardest part might be getting a 100% finish match. The lacquer finish is nearly dead on. The only difference is that my horns are both from 1957, so the lacquer has darkened a bit over the past 55 years on the horns. However, it is hardly noticeable, you have to stare pretty darn hard at the angel wing and the horn to see the difference.

I don't have a photo of the wings on this computer, I'll upload one a little later when I'm using the laptop.

What's interesting is that the clothes guards came pre-drilled with holes, but the angel wings didn't. I can only surmise that the different models (The New King and Toneking) may have varied with the location and perhaps number of fastening screws. Or, that over the course of the production run, the locations for these screws varied.

Oh, and regarding the price I paid, to further add to my annoyance about the $125 each, I talked to my tech David yesterday. He was telling me that there should have been no duty charged, because musical instruments and musical instrument parts from Europe are exempt from duty. So Canada Customs made a mistake. What a shock. Not... I guess I'll have another thing to apply for a rebate for on the form that they provided. Maybe, just maybe, I can get that price knocked down yet. That would be nice...

Edit: Just uploaded the photo of the angel wings and clothes guards.
 
Last edited:
rotfl laughing. so I suggest moving the Akustik stuff out and we switch quickly to JK.

Agree with Terry in principle, if I got an angel wing, I'd want the metal guards. Plastic's too brittle, especially over time.
 
Helen said:
If you were to have a friend make them for you, I think the hardest part might be getting a 100% finish match. The lacquer finish is nearly dead on. The only difference is that my horns are both from 1957, so the lacquer has darkened a bit over the past 55 years on the horns. However, it is hardly noticeable, you have to stare pretty darn hard at the angel wing and the horn to see the difference.
Click to expand...
I was referring to the clear plastic keyguards, not the metal replacements -- although you could get metal ones if you have a friend with a CNC machine.
 
kevgermany said:
rotfl laughing. so I suggest moving the Akustik stuff out and we switch quickly to JK.

Agree with Terry in principle, if I got an angel wing, I'd want the metal guards. Plastic's too brittle, especially over time.
Click to expand...

Ah, come on now Kevin. German is German, right? ;-) We all know those German brands are all interchangeable anyway. :emoji_smile:

Now, just so I can totally lead this thread astray, did you happen to see the C.A. Wunderlich on the German eBay site? (Pics here for when the auction vanishes) I think it's likely a Franz Köhler stencil. What do you think? Pete? Anyone else?

Its pinkie cluster doesn't look exactly Hüller-like to me, although it is close. It is an interesting horn. BTW, I wrote about it yesterday in my blog, so that's another place to see all the pics if the auction is gone.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom