'A' key stepped valve opening adjustment ?

Skywalker

Skywalker

My wife came home from her clarinet lesson yesterday saying that her teacher had found an adjustment problem with the 'A' key on her Bundy-Selmer bass .As it turned out he had attempted to get these valves to open simultaneously , but the adjustment screw wound not go down quite far enough thanks to a small collar at the top .

This was apparently the adjustment problem !

I thought Wow !.... Americans are really great with idiot- proof design . If you can't make the valves open at the same time because the screw won't let you , then you would go to a luthier who wound slap you round the head with a swab he keeps in a pot of jam for just such occasions and charge you 50$ for withdrawing the screw in the hope you'll never come back .
Well ...I withdrew the screw again to restore the staggered opening of the mechanism again ,but it got me wondering what the ideal tolerances actually are here . I'm kind of assuming that this staggered opening relationship is the same on all clarinets simply remaining in scale to the given instrument , but if I'm wrong about that I'd like to know .

Thank in advance for any answers to this question . Julian .
 
On my bass clarinet (and most modern basses) : if only the "A key" is pressed/engaged, if you add the register key (with the left thumb), the Bb tone hole will open and the register hole will remain shut (thus producing a Bb).
If you do-not use the A key and then press the register key, the register tone hole will open and the Bb tone hole will remain shut.

It has been my experience that BOTH tone holes (operated by the register key) should not be open at the same time. It's either one or the other....never both.....if both open at the same time you will get squeaks....... The register key on some Bundys' is a "toggle-gizmo-rockerbar-thing" that goes out of adjustment quite often.

I am a retired public school band director/ music teacher and current bass clarinetist in a local Symphony thus I've had a bit of experience with bass clarinet register keys....

I hope that this helps.

Mike M
 
Thank you Mike ,

Perhaps I'm confused then as to which is the A key ! My wife plays the instrument ..... I'm just the mechanic . I was referring to the lever on the opposite side from the register key that operates two valves one just before the other that cross at right angles with an adjustment screw in the middle .

I already figured out the Chinese puzzle of the register key's double function because yes !....the register valve was opening a little when just the register lever was pressed . To say that's not as it should be sounds rediculus , but you know what I mean .

Well Mike , I have to say that I'm really looking forwards to being able to pick your brain if I have adjustment questions on this ' Bundy' Selmer bass .

As for me , I've done a good bit of old clock repairs a restauracion so working on musical instrument mechanics feels right up my street .

If the have any comments on the adjustment that I had meant to refer to then I would love to hear them .
 
To clear up a little confusion: clarinets do not have valves (that's a brass instrument thing). Clarinets have keys which open/close tone holes.
What you are describing is the left hand A/Ab (could also be called A/G#) key mechanism.
The adjustment screw on the Ab key regulates both keys opening / closing at the same time when an A is played.
Note: (if the screw is tightened too much, the Ab key will not close, resulting in a leak that will affect most of the notes on the instrument).

Sometimes the adjustment screw is a bit loose and will loosen-up over time.
Once it is adjusted properly, applying a drop of clear nail polish to the top of the screw will keep it from loosening. (Works like a charm.)

Mike M
 
Skywalker said:
I thought Wow !.... Americans are really great with idiot- proof design . If you can't make the valves open at the same time because the screw won't let you , then you would go to a luthier who wound slap you round the head with a swab he keeps in a pot of jam for just such occasions and charge you 50$ for withdrawing the screw in the hope you'll never come back .
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if I was insulted. Anyone?

Isn't a luthier someone who repairs stringed instruments?

Jam? In pots?
 
  • Like
Reactions: JfW
pete said:
I'm not sure if I was insulted. Anyone?

Isn't a luthier someone who repairs stringed instruments?

Jam? In pots?
Click to expand...
Yes, a Luthier (a french based word) works on stringed instruments that have a neck and a soundbox, by definition.
As such "valves" are related to brass instruments.

I don't really understand what "stance" has been taking or I'm guessing English isn't the first language so I haven't commented.

And I'm not sure about the "screw" thing as MANY early FRENCH instruments have adjusting screws on them.
Just check the lower stack of Selmer Paris Balanced Action saxophones, or any clarinet that is an Enhanced or Full Boehm, or even have the adjusting screw on the throat keys. Or a Bassoon or Oboe made in france or otherwise.

Even stringed instruments have adjusting screws ... the big wooden PEGS and adjusting screws on the Fine Tuner of the Tail Piece.
AdjustingScrews.jpg
 
Last edited:
You are right on all counts ! English is NOT my first language and my instrument is the guitar . It's my wife who plays clarinet so my relationship with the instrument is purely dealing with its mechanics .( which I find fascinating ).

My errors in correct nomenclature have been noted and my remarks about a luthier smacking you with a swab dipped in a pot of jam are an attempt at humor and I can't really see how anybody could take them personally .

If the joke is on me ...then that's fine !

If my posts have baffled people , to clear it up ,I have always been given to understand that the Ab key when correctly adjusted , should NOT open both tone holes simultaneously , but rather that one should open just before the other . My question is HOW MUCH one before the other ?..... Or should they in fact be adjusted to open simultaneously ?
 
Skywalker said:
If my posts have baffled people , to clear it up ,I have always been given to understand that the Ab key when correctly adjusted , should NOT open both tone holes simultaneously , but rather that one should open just before the other . My question is HOW MUCH one before the other ?..... Or should they in fact be adjusted to open simultaneously ?
Click to expand...
They need to open an amount in order to vent properly to not sound stuffy or flat totally dependent upon the players dynamic levels as compared to the repairpersons ability to maximize the setup.

Whether simultaneously, or other is totally dependent upon adjustments, height of the pads in the pads cups and the setup and how the player wants it.

But I would set it up to be nearly simultaneously. The adjusting screw making this easier as even mid 1950s era clarinets all did not have an adjuster screw yet. So one had to use cork thicknesses, etc to make this work the way they wanted it to.
 
Thank you Steve .......that definitely answers my question in a way I can understand .

Is it true that how far pads open affects the pitch along the lines of ...less open lowered pitch , more open heightened pitch ?
 
Yes but Not totally.
One can easily experiment with this.

Closing a pad cup slowly can make it flat/stuffy.
but you are limited to how much you can open it, and only a certain amount will affect it getting to the designed pitch, and shouldn't sharpen it if opened more than designed.

ON a Bb clarinet, Play a C below staff X- XXX - OOO which is just your left hand 3 fingers and thumb.
Then
with your first finger right hand, slowly close a pad cup on the top of the ring keys on the lower joint. ( do not cover any ring key)
As you slowly close it the C tone goes flat and stuffy.
Then if you reverse it, totally closed and slowly open the key you can see how it then raises the tone slowly.

But if you could totally remove the key, then at some point the key opening up does not affect the tone anymore, and thus not the intonation.

This opening is affected by the (a) height of the pad in the pad cup, and (b) any cork or stopping material in relation to the key to the body or other keywork.

This is more relevant based upon a players dynamics and the clarinets setup. Someone that can get a really loud ffffffff versus someone who thinks loud is simply f ... the pad height can affect that note dependent upon player.

I actually was going to use this specific example in my "ear training" youtube videos once I get to them and edit and publish them. I find many repair people are not "performance" players, and thus when they test an instrument they just make sure it "works" for the general player. But as a player advances they can advance past the repair persons ability.
 
Last edited:
Thank you Steve !.... That was a very eloquently explained reply to my question and put into context too . Frankly it hadn't occurred to me that the ideal adjustment of a wind instrument depended on who was playing it ,although that makes perfect sense thinking about it .

I play acoustic guitar and the first thing I do if a get a new one, is set it up myself and to my liking because I know that a luthier just isn't going to do that for me .

You really should do those YouTube videos , I'm sure you have a lot to offer and most definitely a gift for expressing it .
 
Skywalker said:
Thank you Steve !.... That was a very eloquently explained reply to my question and put into context too . Frankly it hadn't occurred to me that the ideal adjustment of a wind instrument depended on who was playing it ,although that makes perfect sense thinking about it .

I play acoustic guitar and the first thing I do if a get a new one, is set it up myself and to my liking because I know that a luthier just isn't going to do that for me .

You really should do those YouTube videos , I'm sure you have a lot to offer and most definitely a gift for expressing it .
Click to expand...
there's a few videos of mine where I reference the pad/keycork heights in regards to tonality, but I have a long list of videos I want to do. Right now i'm meandering through mouthpiece/reed stuff.
 
Great ! ... I'll check them out . I'm sure that your videos have material that would be interesting to me and my wife, who is currently pushing to master the bass clarinet for the woodwind orchestra she plays in . At present there are about 40 members ...... But no bass clarinet ! It's not a Buffet but it's better than nothing .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom