Alleged Keilwerth Toneking Prototype (Hey, Helen!)

[pete]

From the German version of ebay. I quote:

Pre-War Keilwerth for sale.

This one is something very special. There ist no JKG stamp nor any serial number visible. And this is absolutely original! I wrote to Keilwerth and spoke to a descendant of Julius Keilwerth, but no one really knew when it had been produced.
So the only thing we found out ist, that it might be a prototype of the Toneking Model 1 dated in the 30s or one of the first or maybe the first sax produced after they moved to Bad Nauhheim.

The main difference to allt Keilwerths is a slightly wider neck receiver (about 28,1mm) and no tuning screw at the neck (original). It does have a D-trill and an Ed trill as all pre-war Keilwerths.

The condition is - considering its age and that it survived the war - great. Slight sign of use at the silver plating and some scratches caused by these old stands and some smallest dings.

Unfortunately a non original marching lyre holder has been added, the neck octave key semms haveing been resoldered and two cracks under the mouthpiece cork have been professionally patched and a ring has been added (replacing the original).

(Misspellings and grammatical errors are in the original text.) What do you think? It does look an awful lot like the s/n 14942 horn on your website.

FWIW, I know this horn is neither a Modell 1 nor the first iteration of the Toneking models. The Modell 1 had left-side bell keys and the first Tonekings had split bell keys.

 

[Helen]

There's lots to say here... I'm getting ready to go out for Thanksgiving Day brunch ATM, then we've got a dinner later on. I'll have to do some research on this.

Let me mention this right up front: The seller's original German text and English are different. In the English he wrote:

I wrote to Keilwerth and spoke to a descendant of Julius Keilwerth, but no one really knew when it had been produced.

In the German he makes no such claim about a Keilwerth descendant. In German he simply says:

Ich habe Keilwerth daraufhin angeschrieben, aber auch sie konnten mir nicht weiter helfen dieses Sax zu datieren.

That would translate into:

I wrote to Keilwerth, but they could not help me to further date the sax.

Even if the seller has had the sax in his possession for a number of years, Gerhard hadn't worked at JK for a number of years before his death. He operated his saxophone restoration and sales company in Nauheim since 2006, before dying in Feb. 2012. I'm not aware of another of Julius' descendents working at the current JK.

 

[SOTSDO]

Lying and deception on an internet website?!?!? Why, I never...

 

[pete]

Hey, I actually am quoting. The ad's in both German and English. No translate used.

Anyhow, I'm more interested in the instrument comparison.