Amps & Effects Pedals: Who Here Uses Them?

Helen

Helen

Content Expert Saxophones
Staff member
Administrator
For more than 20 years now I've been playing in rock & blues bands. I use a lot of effects in my playing, but all of them come from my throat. My vocal chords have taken a beating. Like singers who have spent years in loud bands, I too am starting to feel changes in my throat and in my voice.

I've always run my wireless unit through the main board and out through the PA because I just didn't want to pack around more gear in the form of a keyboard amp. But I've also really wanted to play around with pedals, and having an amp would be the way to go.

So finally this week I bit the bullet and called up a sound guy I know who happens to be the Pro Audio Consultant and Assistant Manager at one of the local music stores. Dave has done my sound a number of times for a couple of different bands I work in, so he knows my playing style, and my current effects. He's also a really knowledgeable and nice guy. I completely trust him... And I need someone like that, because I'm a bit of an idiot when it comes to stuff like this. I let the sound guys look after me. I just come and play.

I told Dave what I was looking for, and asked him what his suggestions for gear would be. He came up with something surprisingly economical: A Behringer amp, and if I did want to go with an effects pedal, his recommendation was the Boss VE-20 Vocal Performer.

Because he didn't have many different brands in stock of the wattage I was interested in, and I didn't have my horn and wireless unit with me, we made an appointment for next Friday. I'll bring my gear in, and he'll have a variety of amps for me to try.

The Behringer has quite a lot of effects built in already, so a pedal might not be necessary. It all depends on what I decide I want to do. Playing around with the gear next Friday will give me an idea what it can do, and what sounds it will produce.

I have resisted using this gear for years, but no more. My vocal chords need a break. It will also be nice to be in control of my own sound, and volume in smaller venues.

Is there anyone here who uses gear like this? I realize this is a subject that hasn't been talked about much (at all?) here on the WF. If anyone has any insights, it would be great to hear them.
 
The Boss looks like a good pedal.

A lot depends on whether you're running into the PA or using your own amp.

If you have your own amp, it should be a full range amplifier - like a keyboard amp. Guitar amps don't have the frequency response you need. You'll also need an XLR input for your mic.

Then you can run regular stompbox or multifx units
through the effects loop.

Some effect types that work well on sax include chorus, Leslie speaker simulators, and dynamic wahs (aka envelope followers). The Brecker Brothers used many of these effects as well as harmonizers.
 
For years I used a Digitech Quad rack mount effects unit. I liked this unit because it had a myriad of effects, including the Hammond B3 rotary, which I used to augment my terrible keyboard skills. It also had a nice foot switch that allowed you to cycle up and down through your patches, and a one button bypass. I used two channels on the keys, and one for the sax. My sax signal path was wireless mic to effects unit to direct box to the PA. I had about nine custom user patches built in ascending order as follows:
1. No effect
2. Very slight EQ boost (mostly bass & treble)
3. Greater EQ boost
4. EQ boost plus some delay
5. EQ boost plus lots of long delay
6. EQ boost plus flange (rarely used)
7. Octave double up
8. Octave double down
9. Octave double up and down

I used patches 2, 3 and 4 quite a bit for soloing, and the others for the very occasional special effect. Patch 5 was for a sax cadenza at the end of Chain of Fools as I would wander through the audience. I could actually accompany myself!

Octave doubling can be hazardous to your speakers. Doubling down on bari sax produces some earth rumbling results. I typically would use the double up option to thicken up a powerful horn section riff.

Unfortunately, the Digitech unit bit the dust last year. It shuts itself off for no apparent reason, usually at a most inconvenient time. I looked at the various vocal processors and guitar multi-effects units, and decided to simplify a bit. I ended up with a Zoom G1 guitar processor.

http://www.amazon.com/Zoom-G1-Guita...8&s=musical-instruments&qid=1281296419&sr=8-1

Light weight, and simple operation, but plenty of effects. I ended up programming 1-5 above, and adding a no effect as #6, since the bypass function requires you to step on two buttons simultaneously for one second. This unit is very easy to program your user patches.

I've only used it a couple times, but it seems to work fine. Pretty clean sound. The only thing to watch out for is you don't want to accidentally punch in some of the pre-programmed guitar patches. I hit one by mistake (kicked the down button once too many times) and ended up with a hideous squeal. I may actually program a couple more no effect patches at the beginning and end, just so that doesn't happen again.
 
bpimentel said:
Why is this? Wouldn't pedals work just as well with the venue's PA? Just wondering.
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Gandalfe said:
I was wondering this too as the advertisement sez it does work on PAs.
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I have a small bit of experience running sound boards and setting up various electronic equipment. I only used amps as monitor speakers or if some guy came in with $1.2 trillion in his own equipment. When that was the case, it meant that I just put a mic next to the amp just in case it wasn't loud enough and to route it to other people's monitors.

(Oh. I'm using "amp" a little too loosely: an amp is just the thing that takes a signal and amplifies it. There are lotsa amps that don't have speakers. I'm using "amp" as in "an all-in-one amplifier and speaker package".)

Using the house system was generally better because the house sound was generally better quality than whatever a person brought in. Additionally if you have a really big venue, you do have to worry about the speed of sound (seriously) and that means that the venue may have speakers every few feet to work around this problem.

Boss was owned by Roland when I last played with electronic gear (just checked; they still are) and that's a very big name in electronic music. Should be high quality. You might also be able to find stuff on eBay.

Both amps and pedals are one of the original sources of GAS, according to Wikipedia. Just to warn you.

For what it's worth, I've not heard an all-in-one amp that I was incredibly impressed with. Most had a way too boomy low end -- which is one of the very few complaints I have about my car's stereo: big bass, big treble, no midrange.

I've mentioned the two obvious saxophone electronic devices to Helen: the Selmer Varitone and the Vox-produced King-"stenciled" Octavoice. Both are pricey, if you can find them, but the Octavoice is generally the cheaper of the two. 'Course there are a bunch of different Electronic Wind Instruments which have the advantage of always being in tune and you don't have to use anywhere near as much wind/pressure -- the latter being exceptionally important to those of us that have neuro problems.
 
Thanks for the thoughts guys. Couple of things I didn't put the thread that would explain why I plan to use an amp. Although I have traditionally run through the boards in all the bands I've worked, I am tired of being at the whim of the guy in control of the board. For larger festival venues where we have dedicated sound guys "out there", that's not an issue since they adjust the sound as needed. But for smaller venues where we do our own sound, it's starting to really get to me.

In the band that I now work in primarily, we have just added a keyboard player who brings a Hammond, electric piano, and some other keyed "thingy"--don't remember what it is--and runs them all through a big mother of Leslie. Combined with the guitar and the bass, and a very powerful drum kit, I don't stand a chance once everyone gets going, because I don't have control over my own levels. While my level is fine when it is set at the beginning during our sound check, by part way through the 2nd set--and by the 3rd for sure--I'm usually starting to get drowned out in the monitors.

Our PA system including the 4 mains, 4 monitors, the board, all the components in the various cabinets, and sundry bits is a fairly large and fairly expensive system. It runs in the neighbourhood of 60K. Depending on how big the venue is we play, we often only take 2 mains, and the rest of the stuff. We're not a small production. We have a pure, clean, & can have a very big sound. Besides the instruments, the band also features 3 vocalists.

So my reason for using an amp in small venues when we don't have a sound crew, is that it will allow me to be in control of my monitor volume. This way I can turn up when I need to, and not run the risk interfering with the vocals coming out of the monitors.

Certainly a pedal can go directly into the board, and if I'm playing at a festival, that's most likely what I would do.

Oh, and Pete... No worries about either amps or pedals becoming a G.A.S. issue for me. I'm way too addicted to horns. (I don't have more than 1 wireless unit and 1 corded Shure microphone, and I've had them for years.) That's why I went to see my trusted colleague who does sound professionally. Dave knows me, and knows my style and my likes/dislikes. He knows I want to buy this stuff only once, and don't mind spending a few dollars to make sure that what I get will a) do the job I want/need it to do, and b) will last.

Once I've had a chance to play test the gear later this week I'll have a much better idea of what it will sound like, and if any of it going to solve my problems for me. I'm most curious to hear the different amp brands.
 
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There something to be said for having your own sound guy. But it's too expensive for what I do. We're lucky if we get $30 a player.

There was the time when we had to yell at the sound man to turn on the vocalist's mic during a gig; he was chattin' up some babe and I would guess not concentrating on our music. Actually we had to do it twice and that was painful. :emoji_rolling_eyes:
 
Helen,

You may want to look at some powered speaker options instead of a traditional style keyboard / guitar amp. The Mackie SRM 350s and 450s have a nice clean sound with a built in XLR input, as do the equivalent JBLs. For less money, you can get a Behringer or a Harbinger, although if Hak chimes in, he will warn you away from the Behringer (I tend to agree - there is a reason they are so much cheaper). The nice thing about these is the light weight and versatile shape. You can put them on a stand, set them upright on the floor, or use them like a traditional wedge monitor. YMMV.
 
Helen said:
So my reason for using an amp in small venues when we don't have a sound crew, is that it will allow me to be in control of my volume.
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This, of course, doesn't guarantee that the house sound guy won't turn you down. An example, from when I ran sound:

After a rehearsal, the leader of the band (vocals, drums) I was doing sound for was hanging around and helping me tear down stuff. He asked me how I thought Amy's (not her real name) singing was. I found a very polite way of saying that her singing sucked, but her personality was very good for the group. He agreed and said that what I should do is turn off the singer in the house -- and only put her in her own monitor -- so the audience really couldn't hear her anymore.

Now, if you're playing in a coffeehouse/bar or something, a decent little amp has enough sound to fill up the room, so no problem. Big venue, problem. It'd still help you, though, because you won't have to blow up your throat. At some point, you have to say, "Well, I'm doing enough. The sound guy needs to do his job better."
 
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Pete is a wise and wonderful person, whom I will respect forevermore because he can fix edits. 'n' stuff. What I meant to post was:

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pete said:
After a rehearsal, the leader of the band (vocals, drums) I was doing sound for was hanging around and helping me tear down stuff. He asked me how I thought Amy's (not her real name) singing was. I found a very polite way of saying that her singing sucked, but her personality was very good for the group. He agreed and said that what I should do is turn off the singer in the house -- and only put her in her own monitor -- so the audience really couldn't hear her anymore.
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With some jazz stuff, you can get away with that. But, if the melody is all in the vocals, the front of house sound may be minus her "contributions", but it will also be very uninteresting music.

pete said:
Now, if you're playing in a coffeehouse/bar or something, a decent little amp has enough sound to fill up the room, so no problem. Big venue, problem. It'd still help you, though, because you won't have to blow up your throat. At some point, you have to say, "Well, I'm doing enough. The sound guy needs to do his job better."
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When I started my group, I inherited a music library from a band out on the West Coast, one that was very light on vocal parts. (This is apparently not uncommon, as vocalists have a habit of walking off with their charts.) Included were a number of standards, among them the college-level arrangement of (Somewhere) Over The Rainbow, which came with a vocal part (which was missing in our book) plus a pair of Tenor 1 parts - one for the vocal version and one for the instrumental solo.

When pulling the set list for our very first job (one with orange extension cords to power our stand lights, a second hand PA head, and bargain basement microphones), I made the mistake of allowing the sidemen to pull their own charts. It's not one that I'll make a second time.

All of the music was pulled (and the parts and their order verified by my less than musical (at the time) wife) before we set up for the job. Things went fine until we launched into the ill-fated tune. At that point, I started noticing that we didn't seem to have a melody going on.

What had happened, of course, was that the non-solo part was the one that the tenor player had pulled (and that my lovely wife had not recognized as the wrong one). Bummer.

Since that time, I always make two separate charts for those dual arrangements, with two different numbers in our filing system. Never have made that mistake again...

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Again, Pete is a man amongst men and I will always be in his debt because he graces us with his presence.
 
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Wow, Terry. After reading what you wrote (and making my feeble attempts to fix it), I still feel that you are like a bass clarinet god amongst mortals, and I defer to your mastery of the manual register key bass clarinet in the key of A with Albert system keywork.

Two can play at this game, of course
 
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Some days my brain really is mushed, and my cognitive misfires really are apparent. (Either too many Rx, or not enough... Hard to tell.) Case in point: my 2nd post above. I realize I rather confused things, and combined 2 bands together and wrote mains when I meant monitors... :-( I'm not really stupid... Just, sometimes a bit impaired. :oops: I did fix the post just now, and hopefully the rest of this makes sense. (No guarantees.) ;-)

A couple of days ago I did go out a play test all the gear. I ended up not getting the Behringer because compared to the other amps, it just didn't sound as good. I ended up getting a Roland KC-350 keyboard amp along with the Boss vocal processor pedal I mentioned before. If all I was ever going to do was use the amp as a monitor for my work with the blues band, then the Behringer would have been fine. However, there are lots of times where I could have used the the amp with the jazz band I front, and for that use, the Behringer didn't stand a chance compared to the warmth and richness that the Roland produced.

For my work with the blues band, I plan to use the amp as a monitor in smaller venues when we don't have a dedicated sound crew and gear (read festival), thus allowing me to turn up when things get louder on stage as the evening wears on. Right now I'm coming through the monitors along with the vocals, and when I ask to be turned up there in "my monitor", it throws things off, since I usually have to share my monitor for a variety of reasons. My signal out through the mains is quite hot. (If anything, sometimes too loud.) It always has been. The sax is front and centre in Deception, which is why I really need to be able to hear myself. I solo a lot, and do a lot of improvised duets with the the electric guitar. This band really is sax player's dream come true. You will never be told that you are over playing. If anything, you're being told you're not playing enough.

This weekend I've been playing around with the new gear, and have been trying to figure out the various presets that come with the Boss. Art, Deception's front man, guitar player and sound guy, is coming over on Monday and he'll bring his guitar. We'll play around together for a while in advance of Thursday's rehearsal.
 
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