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Antique and period woodwind

I spent an hour this morning playing both the Selmer metal clarinet and my seldom used A clarinet (just to put a little moisture into the horn now and then). (I also cleaned up my favorite mouthpiece - it was getting a bit grubby.)

The metal horn was fine up to high G# (my normal ceiling these days), but had one pad that had puffed out a bit (side Eb key in the trill bunch). The register key, even with the messed up cork pad, worked just fine. The spacing of the keys and the thumbrest is the standard "same as a wood clarinet" sizing that the Selmer metals were favored for. And the tone of the horn (with the exception of the muffled side Eb key) was consistent both with itself and with my wooden Bb (played only for comparison).

The A was as perfect as a well-adjusted Series 9 A clarinet can be.

i hardly ever get to play Bb clarinet these days, and it was nice to run through a bit of Lazarus on the little horns.

And, looking at those gorgeous photos above with a little more time, I noticed that there were two horns with the articulated G# that do not have the extra G# trill sliver between the first and second finger holes on the lower joint. That's weird. Mine has this extra key, like my other clarinets.
 
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Martin Thibouville

Just thought I would add this for interest in the thread.

Last year I bought very cheaply on Ebay an old Boehm Martin Thibouville clarinet. It was interesting to me because it was a 19th century Boehm, it didn't have a barrel joint (and was only £30..)

Researching it on the web I came across the site of the Library of Congress, Music Division, USA. http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dcmhtml/albert.html

The site describes entries within a Martin Thibouville trade catalogue of 1890 and states:

"The catalog is illustrated with engravings or woodcuts of various models, and they seem accurate enough to serve as evidence, except for the curious mistake that two of six soprano clarinet illustrations show an instrument without a barrel joint"

Well as mine did not have a barrel, the curious mistake was by the writer and not the catalogue.

So I sent a quick email to the Library of Congress, and what do you know, yesterday I received copies of the catalogue from them (I am in UK). Isn't that fantastic?

So in case others may be interested, below are pics of my clarinet and the catalogue. I have model 22, by the way. It is in A (A=330)

The last pic is of one of the keys cleaned up.

Chris

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A clarinet without a barrel. That's different. Might make intonation a challenge.

I assume that when you say A=330, you're talking, "When I finger the A key on the clarinet and blow it comes out to 330hz" (or something like that), because I don't recall concert A=330 as an intonation standard. A=440, A=442, A=457 or A=435 are pretty common.
 
I totally get the full Boehm A clarinet now and wish I had one. It isn't the low Eb, it is another Bb that is the reason I see for their desirability. There is a lick in Carmen that would be SO easy on a full Boehm A, and yet doesn't lay well on either the Bb or A clarinets most of us are playing.
 
A clarinet without a barrel. That's different. Might make intonation a challenge.

I assume that when you say A=330, you're talking, "When I finger the A key on the clarinet and blow it comes out to 330hz" (or something like that), because I don't recall concert A=330 as an intonation standard. A=440, A=442, A=457 or A=435 are pretty common.

Sorry - finger error! A=430
As below, A=430, tuner to C, play a C, tuner says A

image001comp.jpg


I Should read it twice before I click submit...

Chris
 
No problem.

If'n you can, you might wanna try to tune to A=435 and see what happens. That's French Standard from the mid-19th century. Again, I don't recall A=430 as being a standard at any time, but, admittedly, I haven't done research on intonation standards in a long while.
 
No problem.

If'n you can, you might wanna try to tune to A=435 and see what happens. That's French Standard from the mid-19th century. Again, I don't recall A=430 as being a standard at any time, but, admittedly, I haven't done research on intonation standards in a long while.

If you google "A=430 baroque" you get quite a few hits

Chris
 
Extended range clarinets and their twelfths

The low Eb key on a clarinet (or bass clarinet) equipped with one is there first and foremost to produce a low Eb. It will throw the twelfth (the Bb in the middle of the staff when played with the register or double register key), but the note that it produces is both different in character and slightly more difficult to produce than the notes immediately above (mid-staff B and C) (but see expansion of this below). For that reason, in over forty years of owning both clarinets and bass clarinets so equipped, I have only used it (in actual performance, rather than experimentation) a mere handful of times.

One (the most frequent, by the way) is when playing the oboe solo opening the "Bacchanale" movement of "Samson and Delilah". It's an "oriental-flavored" bit that is good if a situation requires a little bit of ad lib exotic-sounding music, and as such I usually end up playing it on the clarinet. (You don't want to hear me play it, or any other tune, or even a tuning A, on the oboe...)

It runs through the entire "clarinet" range of the instrument down through mid staff B, with one grace note like venture down to Bb in the horrid (in conceptual terms) throat tones. As the little deviation down to the pinch Bb is both awkward and difficult to execute with the same facility as the rest of the bit, I will (in that instance only) use my "long Bb" with the extra Eb key. It allows for the entire phrase to be played with the same lilting light touch as it has when played on the torture rack soprano oboe.

Other than that (or some other similar circumstance), the only time that I touch it is for playing the extended range Eb (which on both horns, soprano and bass, was placed there only for the transposed E of the every-so-slightly deeper pitched A clarinet) should I be transposing an A clarinet or bass clarinet part.

There is one other use for the low Eb key though, and it's one that I really appreciate. The long B on a horn equipped with a low Eb key always sounds more "consistent" than it does on instruments not so equipped. This is true both of soprano clarinets and of the occasional "old school" bass clarinet that I have owned or experimented with. Putting this note through a tone hole rather than through the bell really smoothes out the "clarinet" register.

Having said all of that, I agree that having some of the throat tones duplicated at the bottom of the "clarinet" register is certainly an excellent idea. We already have that done for us with the B and C at the top end of the "chalmeau" register (register and side trill key fingerings), even though (again) the tone quality leaves something to be desired.

(Well, as perceived by the player of the instrument, at least. I have had impromptu "taste tests" held to see if "non-clarinet people" can detect the difference - sort of a blind test only with ignorance (on the part of the listeners) taking the place of the screen. They can't tell the difference, folks, regardless of the fingering. So, like breath noise (so easily perceived by the player (and on closely miked recordings), but rarely heard by the listener, it may all be in our heads.)

My guess is that makers of "full Boehm clarinets", the few of these that have ever existed (and the makers of the analogous modern bass clarinets of every stripe), have not spent that much time tuning and fiddling with the low Eb note on these horns to make it also as functional as a Bb in the middle of the staff with the addition of the register key. The difference between a low E and low Eb is there in all cases (but see below), slight though it may be, and the difference between the twelfths of these notes (mid-staff B and Bb) is much more striking. But, spending the time equalizing and grinding when it isn't (in the eyes of the maker) really all that important for producing a note that is already pretty good played in the normal fashion.

(In this, it is similar to the alternative Eb key for the LH little finger. When it is provided, it simplifies things a lot, but a lot more get by (due to their training and tradition) without it pretty well.)

Other examples of this exist as well. The aforementioned C and B with the "trill keys" are one. These notes come through about as well as they can, but they are never (in most cases) as good as the "long" fingerings for the same note. (But yet again, see below) On the saxophone, the much hated (by me, anyway, with my huge ham hands) palm keys provide another example. Sure, you can play a mid-staff D with the first palm key, but few serious sax players will do so when it's possible to sub in the "long" D in its place. As for the saxophone, so too for the clarinet (for some of us).

What's the point of all of this. Well, it filled in my time before breakfast this morning, so that alone works for me. And, it may piss off some of you - like the grain of sand that starts the formation of a pearl - irritation has its rewards. I know that the "flat" response of the horn when playing a throat Bb the normal way has irritated me for nigh on half a century now, and the solution is right there in front of us if only the makers would take note and the teachers would recognize it for what it is.

Anyway, enough bitching on my part; the notes follow.

NOTES ON ABOVE FOLLOW:

Regarding the differences between C, B and the "faked" Bb afforded by a low Eb key:


Clarinet players are not as aware of this as are saxophone players (who also play clarinet). The temptation to put that RH little finger down to play C in the staff is always there in the back of my mind. Hell, it works on the clarinet - why not on the sax. Sax players (who have never played clarinet) don't give this a second thought. Nurture versus nature, I guess.

Regarding the difference between low E and low Eb:

This is rare enough (due to the paucity of "full Boehm" instruments) that most don't worry about it. On the bass clarinet, it is pronounced (but not a real issue, due to the rarity of parts pitched in A in most player's universes).

It comes from the perceived difference in the liberation of the sound from the low E on the bottom joint of the instrument, while the low Eb issues from the different bell. I have never been able to get another bass clarinet player (who could actually play the horn as well as I) to play these two notes while I had my head down between their knees to listen up close and personal at the point where the sound was issuing from the horn. (I wonder why this was?)

However, on an extended range bass, the difference is pronounced. There, since everything from the low E down to low C# comes from the side of the horn, there is much more perceived consistency. (The low C, issuing from the bell, has the same problem as the low Eb on the smaller horn.)

And, I have noticed (but have not had an opportunity to evaluate first hand) the practice of some makers (Buffet for one) to have the low Eb issue from a tone hole (usually situated at the beginning of the bell), instead of through the bell. This has been a practice of some German makers for many years now, and it is nice to see the practice bleeding over into the French world. All too often, the practices of the German clarinet world have been ignored by the French school of playing - it's high time that this stops.

Regarding the difference between trill fingering C and B and their "clarinet" register analogs:

While it is hard to evaluate this adequately on a soprano clarinet, the owner of an extended range bass clarinet can try this experiment: finger the low Eb, D, Db and (barely) C with the addition of the double register key. You will find that you can choke out the equivalent Bb, A, Ab and G of the "chalmeau" register of the horn, although the tones get progressively less desirable as you descend the scale.

But, if you have access to a third hand, you may be able to finger the same notes down on the bottom joint with some side trill key on the upper joint (it varies from horn to horn) in place of the register key, and the Bb through G will come through much clearer (although still not perfect). This is because you have added an additional "register vent" further down on the instrument that allows these long notes to speak clearly, just as every double register key bass clarinet maker has already provided on the more highly developed bass clarinet.

The location and size of the register vent on a "bog standard" soprano clarinet (and on a "student model" bass clarinet) has been determined by a series of compromises. It has to work both as a tone hole for the stuffy "pinch" Bb, as well as the vent for a whole series of tones ascending upwards on the horn, from the middle of the staff (where it acts for the entire tube of the clarinet) all the way up to high E (when used for various alternate fingerings ascending from high C above the staff). Really, considering all that it has to do, the clarinet makers have done a wonderful job with stealing a little facility here, a little tone clarity there, and a little positional cleverness there. (This last can best be seen on a single register key basset horn - that key arm is one long, thin piece of metal.)

However, craft and artifice can only go so far. Once their abilities have been exhausted, complexity has to take their place. One striking example of this is the "double register key" that is required on any working bass clarinet, "pro" or "student".

(I have seen a single register key bass clarinet, although it was not in playing condition. I don't envy those few who chose to expose themselves back before Sax thought of the double key - just coaxing out the tones below G above the staff when playing in the "clarinet" must have required a lip to do justice to a Hapsburg prince.)

The double key register systems trade complexity for compromise, since the limits of compromise have been reached in such a horn (probably due to bore diameter - I leave it to the scientific among you to explain this). Instead of one register vent opening high up on the body, they add a second vent. Then, the upper vent can be sited and sized to act only as the vent for those notes for which it is designed, while the lower opening serves for notes lower in the scale.

"Student" horns differ in that the upper vent is still called upon to handle the entire "clarinet" register on the instrument, while the lower one only comes into play with the middle Bb. The mechanism is not so much less complicated for this, but it does avoid the long and exposed linkages on the back of the instrument, so easy to damage when in the hands of a student player (or non-player).

With this (and the equally clever systems on the saxophone - thank you Uncle Adolph for inventing this cleverness, wherever you are), there has been laid down a blueprint for further improvements. Maezzo noted the superiority of the trill key for B as a vent for the throat Bb and moved in that direction. (His "error", if you can call it that, was to depart from tried and true clarinet technique (with his "improved" fingering system), instead of just going the automatic key method (like on a "student" bass clarinet). Selmer had a different approach, which went so far as to add another vent (this up on the barrel) to improve performance and intonation in the "altissimo" register. We all "half-hole" above high C (or, in the case of bass players, "finger roll").

And Don Berger, the patent expert over on the Clarinet boards, could probably cite a dozen or more similar efforts by others to fix the problems. All have failed, partially because of "tradition" and partially because of expense/complexity.

Me? Well, I'm happy enough that the two hole approach was taken on the bass clarinet. I can live without automatic provisions for the register vents (but still really appreciate the automatic keywork on both the bass and the saxophone). And, I hardly ever play the throat Bb without using the trill key as the second tone hole (in place of the register key). Somebody ought to do something about that...
 
The Leblanc paperclip contras actually have a triple-action register key, which operates both register vents and a separate pad for the throat Bb. Are there any bass clarinets with a similar setup?

Grant
 
If you google "A=430 baroque" you get quite a few hits
I got ... two.

:D

Expanding my search, Stephen Fox says that classical period clarinets were A=430hz. That's 1820 and earlier. The horn we're looking at is 1890-ish. French Standard Pitch was "invented" in 1859 and adopted in 1887 (there's a Wiki article on it and I had quoted some guy's website that no longer exists, but it is mentioned elsewhere).

But, you are right in mentioning that A=430 was a valid intonation standard and I appreciate the knowledge.
 
I got ... two.

:D

Expanding my search, Stephen Fox says that classical period clarinets were A=430hz. That's 1820 and earlier. The horn we're looking at is 1890-ish. French Standard Pitch was "invented" in 1859 and adopted in 1887 (there's a Wiki article on it and I had quoted some guy's website that no longer exists, but it is mentioned elsewhere).

But, you are right in mentioning that A=430 was a valid intonation standard and I appreciate the knowledge.

Touché!

Take away my quotation marks and you might get 1610 hits - but looking more closely at those hits it describes clearly that A=430 is classical, not baroque.

I do love these fora where experience and information is so freely and generously shared - which leads me to a comment about your last post, SOTSDO. It may have filled your time before breakfast, but it was a delight to read before bed for me!

The 1890 catalogue showing my clarinet was interesting to me, but in itself it does not fully date the clarinet. From what I have read, the Boehm and Albert system developed almost independently, with the Albert (simple) system only 6 years before the Boehm system (I may need to find a reference for that...)

I also think that Martin Thibouville was the father of Jerome (of JTL fame) and so my clarinet could be much earlier that 1890.

I wonder if the A=430 might date it more accurately - but I have no other reference to go by and have now drawn a blank. The 1890 catalogue shows an A clarinet was made with no barrel joint, but no reference to what it was tuned to.

Chris
 
I've not played a contra clarinet for a l-o-n-g time, so my memory of those experiences is but a distant shadow, viewed at dusk through a glass darkly. My Yamaha YBS 62 has three vent openings (two for the lower setting, one for the other), but the bottom two are opened within a tenth of a second of each other at the same time.

In effect, you are opening two vents at once for the altissimo on clarinets (the register key and the half-hole/rolled first finger). What a wonderful world we clarinet players live in...
 
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