Hi all,
Are these student horns worth getting? What are the pros/ cons?
Are these student horns worth getting? What are the pros/ cons?
Bundy?
- Thread starter UTEP Horn Guy
- Start date
would you (or anyone) recommend a better student horn? Or are Bundy(s) worth their money?
You can't do much wrong with a Bundy, or a Vito, for that matter. Better invest the saved money into a decent mouthpiece and a couple lessons.
The main drawback for the Bundy student saxophones is the position and feel of the keys. For a player with any degree of technical skill they feel awkward and "clunky". The scale is good and as someone else mentioned they are built like a tank. For a used student saxophone that plays well and has the feel of a more expensive instrument the Yamaha YAS 23 can't be beat. The older Vitos made in Japan are essentially the same saxophone, but they are getting harder to find. A used Yamaha YAS 23 in excellent condition can be picked up for around $500 - $600.
If money is no object, the Cannonball Alcazar is an incredible student model horn which retails around $1200---about $600 less than the cost of a new Yamaha YAS 23. http://www.cannonballmusic.com/alcazar.php
John
If money is no object, the Cannonball Alcazar is an incredible student model horn which retails around $1200---about $600 less than the cost of a new Yamaha YAS 23. http://www.cannonballmusic.com/alcazar.php
John
The other problem with a Bundy (made in USA) is that they stopped making them, oh, 20 years ago. Or more. They made the Selmer USA 100-series for awhile and then moved all student-model production to Taiwan, under names like Buescher (again) and LaVoix.
The Bundys stamped "Made in Germany" are Keilwerth New King stencils and are extremely nice horns, not student-quality at all. However, they're fairly old.
Elaborating on TTT's comment, the Vito was built in USA, France, Japan and Taiwan. The Vitos that are desirable are the ones made in France (you probably won't find one; these are rather old) and Japan (Yamaha stencils). The USA-made ones are very old and low quality. The ones made in Taiwan are Jupiter stencils and aren't much to write home about.
Mentioning John's comment, even student models are expensive. I wouldn't buy one. If you have to have a student model, see if you can find a used, overhauled, warrantied horn (see the below paragraph).
If you're looking into student horns, you should check out our Beginners section at http://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/index.php#the-beginners-corner.1321
The Bundys stamped "Made in Germany" are Keilwerth New King stencils and are extremely nice horns, not student-quality at all. However, they're fairly old.
Elaborating on TTT's comment, the Vito was built in USA, France, Japan and Taiwan. The Vitos that are desirable are the ones made in France (you probably won't find one; these are rather old) and Japan (Yamaha stencils). The USA-made ones are very old and low quality. The ones made in Taiwan are Jupiter stencils and aren't much to write home about.
Mentioning John's comment, even student models are expensive. I wouldn't buy one. If you have to have a student model, see if you can find a used, overhauled, warrantied horn (see the below paragraph).
If you're looking into student horns, you should check out our Beginners section at http://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/index.php#the-beginners-corner.1321
The best route to take for student clarinets is to stay with Yamaha horns. For the money, they are the best selection, hands down. Well built, reasonalby in tune (at least the examples that I have seen), and close enough to a "real" clarinet that stepping up in the future would not present huge difficulties in accommodating the difference.
The only time that I would seek out a Vito would be for someone with extremely small fingerbones, or for someone making the first time leap from saxophone. In those two limited cases, the small tone hole chimneys on the Vitos produced in the United States by the Leblanc folks are an excellent choice. You would start such a student on the Vito, and then, once their finger placements were solid, transition them to a better horn (with fewer intonation issues).
One of the best, free-blowing clarinets that I ever had was a Vito, purchased for all of $25.00 at a rummage shop. The instrument was responsive from top to bottom, and was especially free blowing at the top end of the range. I sold it to a sax player wanting to start on clarinet, that for the same $25.00 price point.
Hopefully, none of the above will jeopardize my lifetime membership in the Selmer Clarinets Forever fan club...
The only time that I would seek out a Vito would be for someone with extremely small fingerbones, or for someone making the first time leap from saxophone. In those two limited cases, the small tone hole chimneys on the Vitos produced in the United States by the Leblanc folks are an excellent choice. You would start such a student on the Vito, and then, once their finger placements were solid, transition them to a better horn (with fewer intonation issues).
One of the best, free-blowing clarinets that I ever had was a Vito, purchased for all of $25.00 at a rummage shop. The instrument was responsive from top to bottom, and was especially free blowing at the top end of the range. I sold it to a sax player wanting to start on clarinet, that for the same $25.00 price point.
Hopefully, none of the above will jeopardize my lifetime membership in the Selmer Clarinets Forever fan club...
UTEP: Two years ago, I was looking for an inexpensive alto saxophone for my then 11-year old grandson. I play tested several different new brands and models at Kessler Music in Las Vegas. Included was a Yamaha 62 (allegedly several steps above the 23). I have played a few 23's and walked away with mixed results - solid horn, very bright tone.
I ended up buying one of Dave Kessler's house-brand altos (Kessler Custom), which I believe is Taiwanese, but I'm not sure. At any rate, the horn played better than anything else that day and was inexpensive. He still plays the horn, is developing nicely, and is still happy with it, as are his instructors.
Price? I recall it was in the $700 range when I bought it. You can always go to Kessler's web-site or call the store and talk to Dave. He ships. DAVE
I ended up buying one of Dave Kessler's house-brand altos (Kessler Custom), which I believe is Taiwanese, but I'm not sure. At any rate, the horn played better than anything else that day and was inexpensive. He still plays the horn, is developing nicely, and is still happy with it, as are his instructors.
Price? I recall it was in the $700 range when I bought it. You can always go to Kessler's web-site or call the store and talk to Dave. He ships. DAVE
Very interesting. So the general agreement is that a Bundy would be a good choice for a beginner student since it's built to take a beating, plays fairly decent, and is easy on the wallet.
I don't agree. As far as I know, the Bundys that I know are no longer made - and if they are, they are probably no different from the myriad of inexpensive Chinese/Taiwanese/Vietnamese saxophones out there bearing a house brand. And if they are still being made (meaning, imported from Asia with the Bundy name on them) the mere presence of the Bundy name is no guarantee that they will be even close to the original Bundy horns as described here. Witness the horrible examples of cheap Asian horns bearing the revered name of Buescher.
I get the impression you have your eyes on a particular Bundy OR already have one. If that is the case, enjoy it. But if you are going out seeking one (having yet to find one), then I for one would rather have one of Kessler's saxophones. At least I trust the Kesslers to set up their products and trust that they work closely with their suppliers to obtain the best worksmanship and features available from the numerous Asian suppliers. A Bundy would be far down my preferred list of student saxophones, given that Yamaha 23's and some pretty neat Taiwanese models are readily available. DAVE
I get the impression you have your eyes on a particular Bundy OR already have one. If that is the case, enjoy it. But if you are going out seeking one (having yet to find one), then I for one would rather have one of Kessler's saxophones. At least I trust the Kesslers to set up their products and trust that they work closely with their suppliers to obtain the best worksmanship and features available from the numerous Asian suppliers. A Bundy would be far down my preferred list of student saxophones, given that Yamaha 23's and some pretty neat Taiwanese models are readily available. DAVE
I'm actually looking into getting a simple, yet decent alto sax for myself. Keep in mind I'm a trombone player and I'll be graduating soon, so I don't intend on spending too much time or money on this horn. I do however would like to get something new (I've had one too many bad experiences with used horns). I was flipping some pages in a WWBW magazine and saw a Bundy for $700. I saw the Y23s as well, but they're about $1700. So I was looking for a plan B.
I'd recommend one of these at http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/clarinet/clarinets.htm
I'd go to http://www.kesslermusic.com/ and contact them about their recommended student saxes. Their clarinets make lousy saxes!
Oops, thinking of another thread I guess. Sorry for the noise.I'd go to http://www.kesslermusic.com/ and contact them about their recommended student saxes. Their clarinets make lousy saxes!
Sorry, I couldn't resist.;-)
The problem with Bundy is that there are many Bundys.
I don't think I have experience with the original older Bundy saxophones.
I have experience with Bundy II saxophones. IMO they are pretty awful. Yes they play in tune but they have so many mechanical problems that I just don't think they are good at all. I also don't like their tone comapred with most other student saxophones.
The current new Bundy is AFAIK Chinese made and sold by WW&BW.
I'd definitely prefer a lot of Taiwanese saxophones and some Chinese saxophones over an old Bundy II.
I also like the Yamaha student model that John recommended. The YAS-23 (and YTS-23 too) are very good and have good tone, intonation and feel. But now with the improvements from Chinese and Taiwanese saxophones it's getting harder to recommend it. These student models from Yamaha have some mechanical problems that make them now less of a good option as in the past when they didn't have much competition. Though I have no experience with newer student Yamahas made in China, but was told they still have the problems.
I just saw a Vito Japan made by Yamaha (I still have it here actually). This one was made in the 90s. It has a weird problem of the bell key arms (especially low Bb) being too short. I know this is original from the factory. I don't remember ever seeing that on a real YAS model. I would want to see more examples to find it was just a rare problem before I would recommend this model.
I don't think I have experience with the original older Bundy saxophones.
I have experience with Bundy II saxophones. IMO they are pretty awful. Yes they play in tune but they have so many mechanical problems that I just don't think they are good at all. I also don't like their tone comapred with most other student saxophones.
The current new Bundy is AFAIK Chinese made and sold by WW&BW.
I'd definitely prefer a lot of Taiwanese saxophones and some Chinese saxophones over an old Bundy II.
I also like the Yamaha student model that John recommended. The YAS-23 (and YTS-23 too) are very good and have good tone, intonation and feel. But now with the improvements from Chinese and Taiwanese saxophones it's getting harder to recommend it. These student models from Yamaha have some mechanical problems that make them now less of a good option as in the past when they didn't have much competition. Though I have no experience with newer student Yamahas made in China, but was told they still have the problems.
I just saw a Vito Japan made by Yamaha (I still have it here actually). This one was made in the 90s. It has a weird problem of the bell key arms (especially low Bb) being too short. I know this is original from the factory. I don't remember ever seeing that on a real YAS model. I would want to see more examples to find it was just a rare problem before I would recommend this model.
Two YAS23's are at https://www.junkdude.com/ProductGroup.aspx?group=saxophones&id_prodcat=187 for $625, each.
If Junkdude (Dave) says it's in good shape, it's in good shape. Buy it. Don't get a Bundy II.
If Junkdude (Dave) says it's in good shape, it's in good shape. Buy it. Don't get a Bundy II.
My Bundy II sounds pretty decent IMHO, is mouthpiece friendly, and has great intonation. No, it's not the end-all, beat all, and the Kessler is probably the better bet for several reasons, but concerning the Bundy II:
Don't they have a True Tone body tube essentially? If so, why wouldn't they sound OK? Yes--the keywork is different, in what I guess was an attempt to improve things (??). I found a post on another site, purportedly from Ralph Morgan concerning, and discussed it here:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=99925&highlight=bundy+morgan