Here's a blog post about the C melody with links to a description and a sound sample by Mo. Enjoy.
C Melody Makin' a comeback?
- Thread starter Gandalfe
- Start date
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=67803
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=37001
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=35233
http://cmelodysax.co.uk/wpblog/?p=39#comment-472
The first two threads are regarding the Aquilasax C melody. The third is just regarding havening one of the "big three/four" manufacture one. The fourth is a post about a Chinese company that's "redesigning" 1920's horns and reselling them. Which is interesting.
I, as always, have an opinion.
I've played and owned a few C melodies. Hey, I have an actual vintage C melody mouthpiece (that I may be willing to sell for the right price ...). I really, really like the tone of the C melody -- if people played the C melody like a C melody and not like a Bb tenor that just happened to be in a different pitch.
The C melody can have a nice, reedy, almost bassonish tone and I think that it'd sound great in a classical ensemble with Conn-O-Saxes and C sopranos.
However, there's a second question: do I think there's a market for the C melody? Probably not. At least not for a new one. The Aquilasax and Pearl River instruments will tell on that front. I'm just wondering if these will be significantly better than, say, a straight-neck Conn in perfect shape -- because those are about equivalently priced.
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=37001
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=35233
http://cmelodysax.co.uk/wpblog/?p=39#comment-472
The first two threads are regarding the Aquilasax C melody. The third is just regarding havening one of the "big three/four" manufacture one. The fourth is a post about a Chinese company that's "redesigning" 1920's horns and reselling them. Which is interesting.
I, as always, have an opinion.
I've played and owned a few C melodies. Hey, I have an actual vintage C melody mouthpiece (that I may be willing to sell for the right price ...). I really, really like the tone of the C melody -- if people played the C melody like a C melody and not like a Bb tenor that just happened to be in a different pitch.
The C melody can have a nice, reedy, almost bassonish tone and I think that it'd sound great in a classical ensemble with Conn-O-Saxes and C sopranos.
However, there's a second question: do I think there's a market for the C melody? Probably not. At least not for a new one. The Aquilasax and Pearl River instruments will tell on that front. I'm just wondering if these will be significantly better than, say, a straight-neck Conn in perfect shape -- because those are about equivalently priced.
One notes on the eBay auction site that there are quite a few Conn-ish C melody horns up for sale. In virtually every case, the horn is misidentified as an alto, and in a few cases someone a little more in the know has bothered to write them and set the straight.
They may not be making new ones, but the old ones are coming out of the woodwork like drone ants on "take flight day)"...
They may not be making new ones, but the old ones are coming out of the woodwork like drone ants on "take flight day)"...
Well, you should be able to find C Melody's for between $50 and $200 pretty easily. It's the refurb that will set you back a pretty penny. And then you have an instrument with the vintage intonation challenges. Pro's wouldn't think twice about playing them. But for intermediate players, they are pretty much unusable except for fun and as a piece of art. But then, maybe that's just me.
I'm luving the sound samples compairing the Aquilla vs. the Martin C Melody sax here: http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/aquilasax/review.htm. Than Alan can really play!
I'm (apparently) the only guy in the world who was not enamored with the Aquilasax and wrote about that. Listening to these sound bites I stand by my observation. But maybe this year's model's will fix that.
I'm (apparently) the only guy in the world who was not enamored with the Aquilasax and wrote about that. Listening to these sound bites I stand by my observation. But maybe this year's model's will fix that.
As much as I like playing my Martin C-Mels (Home model and regular C-Mel). I would have to agree. They are quirky, but that is a lot of their charm too. I agree with Pete also. They have a unique sound that I really respond to. I think the vintage models with their mpc issues keeps them from really taking off in popular playing. They are a challenge, albeit an enjoyable one.
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Gandalfe: Am I missing something? All I found was a lot of text about the production the C-tenor and sound clips for two altos (the Aquila and The Martin). I gather the text dates to 2007. What progress has been made in delivering this new C-tenor to market?
I have a Buescher TT C-Mel but rarely play it. I've found it plays best with my Kessler Bb tenor mouthpiece. Yes, I have two C-Mel mouthpieces but they are stuffy (a Bill Street and a Beechler). I never got on with vintage mouthpieces, though . . . on C-Mel, alto, or soprano.
Would I buy a new C-Mel? Probably not, but still curious. DAVE
I have a Buescher TT C-Mel but rarely play it. I've found it plays best with my Kessler Bb tenor mouthpiece. Yes, I have two C-Mel mouthpieces but they are stuffy (a Bill Street and a Beechler). I never got on with vintage mouthpieces, though . . . on C-Mel, alto, or soprano.
Would I buy a new C-Mel? Probably not, but still curious. DAVE
Greg Fiske from SOTW did an album with some C Mel playing on it. Here's a link:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/gregoryfiske
I think most of the "second versions" of the sound files is on the C Mel.
I bought this album directly from him. Nice stuff!
I must admit the album sounds much nicer than the overly compressed files being shared on CD baby.
http://cdbaby.com/cd/gregoryfiske
I think most of the "second versions" of the sound files is on the C Mel.
I bought this album directly from him. Nice stuff!
I must admit the album sounds much nicer than the overly compressed files being shared on CD baby.
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Dave, you are correct. I was reading about the C Melody or C tenor and clicked out of the subject area by mistake. The sound bites are indeed of the alto sax.
My experience with the Aquilasax C Melody's that were produced and sold in 2007 are here: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=67803&highlight=aquilasax+tech&page=7
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Glen: Thanks for posting that . . . honestly, they all sounded like a regular tenor to me. I guess I'm just locked into Frank Trumbauer and Rosy McHargue's C-Mel sound (plus what I hear from mine - NOT like a tenor at all). Maybe it's the style, though - I suspect most folks confuse style with tone, including me.
When Rosy was still with us, he did a vinyl album with the band I ran. He was in his late 80's at the time and still had that magic. He played an old Buescher with a Steel-Lay mouthpiece. DAVE
When Rosy was still with us, he did a vinyl album with the band I ran. He was in his late 80's at the time and still had that magic. He played an old Buescher with a Steel-Lay mouthpiece. DAVE
There's too little demand for a new C melody horn to make it worth someone's economic while to produce it. There might by a "vanity" project done here and there, but that's it. (Much the same can be said of the bass and contrabass saxes, for that matter.)
The learning curve associated with playing a woodwind instrument, even one so accommodating as the saxophone. These days, "picking up a horn" for the "fun" of it isn't the likely outlet for someone wanting to "fool around" with music. They're much more likely to opt for something computerized, or a chorded instrument like the guitar - less cost and less effort.
'Twasn't that way in the past, of course. Electronic wasn't around (save the Theremin), and guitar (which was) didn't have the cool "jazz" cache that arrived with the Jazz Age.
One is reminded of the original Sax plan for the instrument, where the orchestral horns were to be pitched in F and C, while the military ones were set in Eb and Bb. Had we kept that alignment, the key of F offset would have made things a lot more interesting for us.
The learning curve associated with playing a woodwind instrument, even one so accommodating as the saxophone. These days, "picking up a horn" for the "fun" of it isn't the likely outlet for someone wanting to "fool around" with music. They're much more likely to opt for something computerized, or a chorded instrument like the guitar - less cost and less effort.
'Twasn't that way in the past, of course. Electronic wasn't around (save the Theremin), and guitar (which was) didn't have the cool "jazz" cache that arrived with the Jazz Age.
One is reminded of the original Sax plan for the instrument, where the orchestral horns were to be pitched in F and C, while the military ones were set in Eb and Bb. Had we kept that alignment, the key of F offset would have made things a lot more interesting for us.
Gandalfe: I haven't been on SOTW for several months now, so I missed all of that. Thanks for the link. It didn't make me want to go back, but nevertheless interesting. I had to laugh at Randall's posting on SOTW. His experience matched mine (almost verbatim) with tenor mouthpieces on his C-Mel.
May I assume you never received the Aquila C-Mel?
Terry: I agree with your assessment of the market potential for new C-Mels. This very subject (should they even be made now?) was thoroughly thrashed on SOTW a while back and only the truly committed C-Mel lovers argued for a new one. Hardly enough to support the machining and CAD-work, I think.
But with the Chinese's ability to crank out cheap saxophones, I guess I'm changing to . . . "why not?" I STILL wouldn't buy a new one (nor another old one). DAVE
May I assume you never received the Aquila C-Mel?
Terry: I agree with your assessment of the market potential for new C-Mels. This very subject (should they even be made now?) was thoroughly thrashed on SOTW a while back and only the truly committed C-Mel lovers argued for a new one. Hardly enough to support the machining and CAD-work, I think.
But with the Chinese's ability to crank out cheap saxophones, I guess I'm changing to . . . "why not?" I STILL wouldn't buy a new one (nor another old one). DAVE
I received one and it didn't even play! I sent it back and recieved a full refund.
I first took it to my tech who has done stellar work for me and whose opinion I value. He said, as posted on that link, that the instrument was not work the time to repair. Much of the problems with it were design and finish problems. I was hoping the new model would be better. But I'm not inclined to buy another one.
I first took it to my tech who has done stellar work for me and whose opinion I value. He said, as posted on that link, that the instrument was not work the time to repair. Much of the problems with it were design and finish problems. I was hoping the new model would be better. But I'm not inclined to buy another one.
There's also too large of a supply of decent vintage instruments. While you're probably not going to find another Beaugnier-made Vito C or one of the rumored Yanagisawa horns, you may be able to pick up a late Buescher "Aristocrat" or even a late gold-plated Conn New Wonder transitional.
It's also very possible that you'll find a late Selmer or gold plated Evette-Schaeffer.
As someone said, "It's the economy, stupid." If I could find a horn that needs a good deal of TLC for $100 on eBay (cheapest is going for $10, right now) and then put $500 of TLC into it and have a horn that's close to new shape, a non-pro horn from a Chinese/Taiwanese company doesn't interest me much.
Also, as mentioned, it would be nice if Mr. Eppelsheim did make C sopranos and tenors. Still, though, prices would have to be competitive. I could see spending $2K on an Eppelsheim C. However, I'd be willing to bet that Mr. E couldn't make one for that amount. Hey, Quinn only wants $1250 for a gold plated, Artist's Special Conn. And I think I sold my gold plated Martin (that needed a lot of help) for $300 a couple years back.
I agree about the eBay approach for the occasional "odd" horn. There's little point in producing new C melody horns when a rebuild is available for so little through one of the auction services.
I have stressed trying vintage Conns for many years, since you can get a decent vintage Conn for a hundred bucks or so, put a functional install upgrade into it, and then experience what a Conn can do.
However, I have encountered no end of players who won't even touch one, much less try one. Their loss...
I have stressed trying vintage Conns for many years, since you can get a decent vintage Conn for a hundred bucks or so, put a functional install upgrade into it, and then experience what a Conn can do.
However, I have encountered no end of players who won't even touch one, much less try one. Their loss...
Well, if you could assume the MAXIMUM value for any C melody (minus the incredibly rare horns, like the aforementioned Vito or Selmer) is that one that Quinn is selling -- OK, it's got some plating wear, so let's make it $1500 then as the max you'd want to pay for a C melody.
The cheapest Aquilasax C is $700. That's almost competitive for even for my "Get a basket case horn for $10 and put $500 repair into it", but there are design issues with the Aquilasax (see the above linkies) and it's a bit difficult to call the Aquilasax "pro" quality. My $510 could get a working vintage pro horn. Hey, for the full $700, it be a really good condition working pro horn.
Now, Aquilasax's C soprano might be interesting, but I look at the pricepoint ($660) and think that it might be another out-of-tune junk soprano.
People that are gonna play the C horns don't need or want student quality. They want pro quality. As you said, Terry, it's a niche market. Joe Sax Student isn't going to walk into his high school band and play first chair C melody. Heck, a lot of folks don't even know there are saxophones pitched in C.
It's a lot of wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth over "updated keywork". Keywork isn't everything -- Groovekiller seems to cope just fine with his A. Sax bari, for instance. If they actually IMPROVED the horn's intonation and/or tone, like Eppelsheim did with the bass and contrabass, THAT would be interesting.
The cheapest Aquilasax C is $700. That's almost competitive for even for my "Get a basket case horn for $10 and put $500 repair into it", but there are design issues with the Aquilasax (see the above linkies) and it's a bit difficult to call the Aquilasax "pro" quality. My $510 could get a working vintage pro horn. Hey, for the full $700, it be a really good condition working pro horn.
Now, Aquilasax's C soprano might be interesting, but I look at the pricepoint ($660) and think that it might be another out-of-tune junk soprano.
People that are gonna play the C horns don't need or want student quality. They want pro quality. As you said, Terry, it's a niche market. Joe Sax Student isn't going to walk into his high school band and play first chair C melody. Heck, a lot of folks don't even know there are saxophones pitched in C.
It's a lot of wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth over "updated keywork". Keywork isn't everything -- Groovekiller seems to cope just fine with his A. Sax bari, for instance. If they actually IMPROVED the horn's intonation and/or tone, like Eppelsheim did with the bass and contrabass, THAT would be interesting.
Full disclosure:
I have three (3) C melody saxophones, an early Martin and a later Conn (straight neck), and a Buescher. I like the Martin best, Buescher close second. I have completely overhauled all 3 horns. My personal opinion: They all suck.
In the hands of a great player, a C melody saxophone has possibilities. Leo Van Oostrom's C melody recording is fantastic. By the way, I have never played a Selmer, which is the horn Rudy Wiedoeft used.
If anyone, including Aquilasax, is copying American C melody saxophones from the 1920s, all I can say is, "Why?"
I have three (3) C melody saxophones, an early Martin and a later Conn (straight neck), and a Buescher. I like the Martin best, Buescher close second. I have completely overhauled all 3 horns. My personal opinion: They all suck.
In the hands of a great player, a C melody saxophone has possibilities. Leo Van Oostrom's C melody recording is fantastic. By the way, I have never played a Selmer, which is the horn Rudy Wiedoeft used.
If anyone, including Aquilasax, is copying American C melody saxophones from the 1920s, all I can say is, "Why?"