Counterfeits, knockoffs, etc.

[Helen]

Years ago I wrote some articles about knockoffs and counterfeits in the saxophone world. I am currently researching some more fakes, but this time in mouthpieces and other high-end accessories.

This all got me thinking, why do people buy these things to begin with? Let's face it, a real Theo Wanne MP is going to set you back more than $75, so regardless of the name/logo on the MP, the original buyer has to know it's a fake, yet they go ahead and buy it anyway. Why?

I'm simply curious what goes through people's heads when they plop down their $$ and decide to support counterfeiters. If you have any ideas, please share.

BTW, there is no need to ID yourself as a purchaser of a knockoff or counterfeit. If you want to, that's OK, but you don't need to.

Thanks!

 

[Gandalfe]

Mostly I want to believe that it's because of simple negligence. You know a parent buying an upgrade mouthpiece for their child. But there are those I guess who just wanna try it to see the quality of the cheap item (if any). I know a really good saxophone player who purchased a dirt cheap sop sax and he love it. Dunno why, the intonation must be hard thing to control.

 

[ghostler]

I bought a dirt cheap sop sax in 2012, but I had done considerable research on it before purchase. Of all the Chinese manufactured budget saxes, one stood out above the others. On all the forums I visited, those that owned one said positive comments about it. That was the Venus brand. I had bid on one from a reputable seller on E-Bay, Musical Wheel out of SoCal. The bidder had outbid me.

Then I received a private reduced offer from them for $219, shipping included. (Then, out of state sales tax was not charged. I guess they had a full warehouse of them.)

It plays like an intermediate, plays very well in tune. It's metallurgy is decent. Definitely no soft keywork. I played it so much that I wore out the cloth covered hard foam zippered case. The zipper mechanism finally broke. I bought a plastic universal, lasted me 6 months. Bought another, lasted me another 6 months. Then bought a quality metal one, lasted me a year until the zipper track failed. It now lives in a much more durable ProTec case.

Several months ago had it serviced at Tarpley Music Store in Lubbock, TX. Cost me $152.

The best mouthpiece for it is a Rico Graftonite B5. Although I have played that mouthpiece a lot, it is of better plastic than the old budget Arnold Brilhart black plastic with white insert sold in the 1970's. I haven't put a teeth guard on it, but don't have the deep teeth marks I would get on the old Brilharts. It is of a tougher plastic than available back then.

I haven't even sought out fake brand name mouthpieces. I bought an inexpensive tenor metal mouthpiece about 8 years ago for under $35. It's chrome plating started peeling, is gapped and plays like a beginner mouthpiece. It didn't claim to be a copy of any make, although it resembled my Berg Larson from the 1970's. I only used it a very short time.

 

[ghostler]

More on this tenor metal mouthpiece from the Orient:​

About 8 years ago, I purchased from an unknown seller, a tenor saxophone nickel plated brass metal mouthpiece on an Internet auction site. It did not mention any specifications, mentioned no name brands, was generic. I think I paid less than $35 for it shipping included. The seller had a store with musical instrument accessories from the Orient. Feedback comments seemed favorable, so I bought.

Unbranded tenor sax metal mouthpiece with feeler gauge elements combined for gap measurement.

It played like a beginner mouthpiece. Using my feeler gauge set used for automotive work, I came up with the following measurements. (One stacks the gauge elements until just a very slight drag occurs when sliding under the tip similar to setting valve tappet clearances on an engine head):

I came up with a tip measurement of 0.053 inch or 1.33 mm. A Yamaha 4C, a common beginner mouthpiece has a slightly greater gap of 0.066 in. (1.70mm). This verifies why it played like a beginner mouthpiece.

Shortly after using it a month or two, the nickel plating on it started to peel. I quickly retired it. It resembles the Berg Larson (BL) metal mouthpiece I used back in the 1970's, but certainly did not play like it.

I would have been better to not purchased it, but it was a lesson to me. Given its low price, it was not a great loss. I would have been more disappointed if I had say, paid over $100 for it and if it claimed to be a BL. Today, the metal Berg Larson with lig and cap can cost from $350 to $500 US.

Thus having my senses sharpened from a "school of hard knocks" experience, resort to buying mouthpieces from proven reputable sources. Also I have learned that one can have a satisfying experience with less cost brand name alternatives.

 

[Carl H.]

A comment/clarification for future new sax players reading this discussion. Tip opening in no way corresponds to the quality of a mouthpiece or to the ability of the player. It is a personal preference just like reed strength - they mean nothing. What matters is if they are working for you.

 

[ghostler]

A comment/clarification for future new sax players reading this discussion. Tip opening in no way corresponds to the quality of a mouthpiece or to the ability of the player. It is a personal preference just like reed strength - they mean nothing. What matters is if they are working for you.

I think you may have misunderstood the point of my post. Basically it is, "Don't buy unlabeled mouthpieces from unknown sources and without adequate technical descriptions.

Of interest, Jody Jazz has laid out a decent comparison of various tenor sax mouthpieces to theirs with a recommended range to seek depended upon one's skill level.

They start with the well respected Yamaha 4C on up. Their chart is based on tip gap.

My point was that one should buy their mouthpieces from reputable sources.

THIS ONE at 0.053 inch gap is a VERY SMALL gap for a tenor saxphone with its larger reed than a sop or clarinet. Thomann lists the Bari Esprit mouthpiece at 0.085 inch gap. I use the Esprit on my Jupiter stencil tenor in the community band. It works very well as I can balance my volume with the upper woodwinds, plus I can get a decent subtone out of it in the lower bell notes.

Bari Esprit Tenor Saxophone

Mouthpiece for Tenor Saxophone Material: Plastic, Particularly suitable for pupils and students, Tip opening: .085, Facing length: 20 mm, Full, vibrant tone, Easy response, With ligature and cap

www.thomannmusic.com

Jodi Jazz has a facing chart at:

JodyJazz | Tenor Sax Facing Charts - Compare Tip Openings

The best tenor sax facing charts that you are likely to find with all alto JodyJazz models and all other popular brands. Download & Print a copy here

jodyjazz.com

They are interested in garnering all saxist markets to include the beginner. So, gap is not the only criteria to consider, but for saxes, they do play a part.

 

[Helen]

Besides all the legal and ethical issues involved with buying a counterfeit or knockoff, with regards to MPs, something that has always worried me is what these are made of. We have these things in our mouth for hundreds or thousands of hours. If the infamous melamine in baby food examples from a decade + doesn't cause us pause, I don't know what should.

 

[ghostler]

We have these things in our mouth for hundreds or thousands of hours. If the infamous melamine in baby food examples from a decade + doesn't cause us pause, I don't know what should.

You bring up a valid point for consideration, @Helen .

Why It's Not a Good Idea to Use Melamine Dishes for Kids - Center for Environmental Health

Let’s face it… babies, toddlers, and even school-aged kids can be rambunctious at meal times. We’ll try anything to make mealtimes go a little more smoothly, including brightly colored bowls and plates with a fun kid-friendly design. But before your next dinnerware purchase, it’s good to check...

ceh.org

What is Melamine?​

Melamine is a chemical compound that, when combined with formaldehyde, makes a hard plastic that can be shaped into tableware. We know that melamine in large quantities is toxic; remember when it was used as a filler in baby formula in 2008, that led to 6 deaths and 50,000 hospitalizations in China? Eating off of melamine dishes won’t kill or cause acute poisoning in the same way, but research has shown that small amounts of it does leach into foods (1). And new research is showing that low dose exposure to melamine is neurotoxic and changes how hormones work in the body (2). Kids can be especially vulnerable since their bodies and brains are rapidly changing and developing.

This article cites a good reason to be wary of mouthpieces produced by unknown sources. The reputable manufacturers will be more careful to select synthetic materials that have no known health risks. They have a lot at stake. Negative press from lawsuits and government decease and desist orders can cast their brand in a disfavorable light causing the saxist community to seek their competition instead. It could even cause their business to fail.

Because of the lack of apparent scrutiny in order to cut costs, a non-scrupulous manufacturer can substitute cheaper non-food safe synthetic materials. It would be a shame that one should years later find their life was shortened because of hormonal disruption or other ills like cancers and organ failure.

If one is on a budget, there are sufficient lower cost mouthpieces amongst reputable name brands to choose from.

 

[Carl H.]

I came up with a tip measurement of 0.053 inch or 1.33 mm. A Yamaha 4C, a common beginner mouthpiece has a slightly greater gap of 0.066 in. (1.70mm). This verifies why it played like a beginner mouthpiece.

Not much ambiguous about this statement.

 

[LaFlute]

Like the guy who puts fake M3 badges on his standard bmw 3 series to show off.