Does anyone use this fingering for F#?

jbtsax

jbtsax

Distinguished Member
Distinguished Member
There is a debate on the instrument repair forum whether or not to regulate the sax so that the 1 2 3 | X X 6 fingering can be used for F#---the way it is normally fingered on the flute. My questions are:

-Does anyone here ever play F# with this fingering on the sax?

-Are there any altissimo fingerings that would require the D key to close the F# completely.

Thanks

John
 
The altissimo fingerings tend to be different across a lot of horns. I personally don't see much of a merit to changing that, it makes hard passages harder IMHO. I use the 123x2x fingering on flute sometimes in quick passages if I'm not thinking clearly, and I have used 123xx3 on sax sometimes if I'm coming off a lot of flute stuff *this is all in pits btw*. Haven't had any problems on either.

All that you'd change is the key height on the F key, so it wouldn't be permanant. There shouldn't be any problem if a sax player wanted it regulated like that.
 
jbtsax said:
There is a debate on the instrument repair forum whether or not to regulate the sax so that the 1 2 3 | X X 6 fingering can be used for F#---the way it is normally fingered on the flute. My questions are:

-Does anyone here ever play F# with this fingering on the sax?

-Are there any altissimo fingerings that would require the D key to close the F# completely.

Thanks

John
Click to expand...

Nope, but I do use that sax finger on flute sometimes.
When I need an alternate fingering fo F#, I use the fork F#.
 
I can't think of any fingering, including altissimo, that would require the instrument to be regulated for that, but I guess I would rather have the option available than not. Is there a good reason NOT to regulate it that way? Just that it's more work?
 
John,

If I interpret your question correctly you are asking about the top staff line F#, or lower F#

Either way, 123-xx6 is a possible alternative.

altissimo fingers vary on older horns vs newer horns it seems. I have an old altissimo fingering book which never worked on my more modern selmers. Then Paul Coates said the book was for older horns such as Conns etc. Blue cover - can't think of the title.

but the F# question has to be asked why? Other than coming off of flute and such. If you are holding a long note then one will hear a possible tonal deviation and may want to switch. Or just bear with it.

as if you regulate it for that, it may throw off the other alternate F# such as:

123-4xx and side F#
123-x5x

using the 6 key is just overkill for the sax. Sure, you use it on flute but are we talking about the flute or the sax ? Of course, not all fingers for flute work on sax and vice versa. But if someone really, really wants the 6 F# to work then they must know of the possible problems that it can create.
 
I don't see why not, but how is it also going to affect the F or E note tonal qualities?

I think due to various tonehole widths and such that it would be dependent upon each instrument. Plus if you have 456 (or FED) keys with various heights ... how would one like the feel of that - personally I wouldn't want it that way.

take a look and see the tonehole width variance between the side F# and the 5 tonehole. Quite a bit of difference I think on alot of horns - so that would have to take that into account. I would think, theoretically, the 5 key would have to be quite low which would throw off the natural F both tonally and flat ??? what do you guys think ?

remember the flute is a cylindrical body with same size main stack toneholes. Easier to deal with than a conical body where as you go further down the body, the toneholes get generally larger for the main stacks.

But an experiment truthfully I haven't even tried.

easy test for you - just try playing F# with the 6 key and lower the 5 key until it sounds "ok". Then play F natural with the 5 key the same height.
 
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Sorry Steve I don't follow what your test is intended to prove. Can you explain it a bit further?


John
 
wish i had a sax in front of me to try - have been away from home the past week.
(my brain is a little scrambled on this one too - sick - sinus infection, ear infection et all right now)

objective: simulate the keyheight for 2nd finger to support the 3rd F# - then test F with the approx 2nd keyheight for F natural tonal check

Basically we are trying to find out the key height needed for the middle key RH if one used the 3rd finger key for F# to do a cross check of the tonal quality of F.

We know middle finger F# is (should - at least close to) be F#
and we know that first finger F with the side F# is (should) be F#

and we know that third finger (from normal deduction) F# should be too sharp to be F#, thus we add the middle finger slowly until it comes into tune to F# - this should simulate the key height needed.

Then, noting the height of the middle finger key - if we play 1st finger F PLUS set the 2nd finger to the height of how it was for F# then that would give us an idea of how badly (or not badly) regular F would be if we set the key height of 2nd finger to support the 3rd finger F#

does that make any sense ??
or i might just be confusing myself (and everyone else) right now ... late =-O
 
grabbed my old alto earlier (Royalist II sitting on a stand) and

F# at the top of the staff was dead on intonation (so was F w/side F#, and middle F#)
lower F# was 10cents flat

did not sound as good as mid F#
and the F and side F# sounded the best
 
Thanks for your reply. I understand it better now. My experience with trying to adjust intonation with individual key heights on all but the independent keys has you chasing your tail for hours. In my opinion the best approach is given by Curt Alterac in his "tuning and toning method" described on his website.

Basically that method sets the key height for the stack keys to the height that the most under vented note needs to "vent" clearly. This makes the regulation and the elimination of lost motion much simpler to accomplish and the sax has a much more even "keyboard". Then if there are any glaring intonation problems they are addressed by adding crescents to the upstream side of the tonehole. Even on independent keys when lowering the key opening to bring the note in tune produces a stuffy sound, Curt's approach is to still add a crescent so as not to hurt the tone quality of the note for the sake of its intonation. I hope I have explained it in a way that makes sense to you.

John
 
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