Does R13, stamped UK denote A=440?

Chris J

Chris J

I have put this in the clarinet BBoard, but thought would do no harm to try here too.

I have just bought, and received, a pair of R13s (1974)

Both have "UK" stamped just below the Buffet logo of the UJ. (I can do pictures if needed)

The only mention of this from searches suggests that this means that they were made to A=440 and for the UK market (this from a website of a company that sells many high end instruments in UK, and mentioned in one of their adverts).

Does anybody have a confirmatory or differing view regarding what the "UK" stamp signifies?

Another question

The A has serial 144xxx and the Bb has serial B143xxx (on UJs and LJs)

Another web search does not yield anything to say why the Bb serial starts with a B. I would like to think that the instruments were factory matched, and the B shows which joints are the Bb. But that is just my imagination.

I wouldn't like to think they were B grade seconds!!

I confess never to have strayed to R13s before, having remained faithful to my Leblanc Opus over all these years, with my faith tested occasionally (and seriously) by my Couesnon Monopole (oh, and a pair of FB Selmer CTs, and oh yes, the pair of metal Selmers sometimes give me a coy look and a beckoning finger from the corner of the room). This means I have only the internet as my guide when it comes to serial numbers, and I had not expected to see the B at the beginning of the Bb serial number.

Thoughts and information, ladies and gentlemen?

Steve, I had a good roam around your website but did not spot a reference to the UK stamp. Do you want a photo for the website, when or if an explanation emerges?

Chris
 
Chris,

I would like some pics of that "UK" stamp for the website. Of course, you can play the instruments against an adjustable tuner to check for 440 or 442 or other ?? It's probably as odd as the "NB" or "DG" stamps.

The "B" prefix on the serial numbers are odd for the Bb. I have no information to that either. Most "matched" sets are somewhat obvious to players to which joints go with which joints and how they fit into the case.


On another note, you can return the metals Selmers to me any time you get tired of them :p
 
a good source .. excuse me, I nearly choked
said the "B" stood for the Benny Hill edition ...

So far .. the only UK possible, though highly unlikely, answer as we all know the theme song was sax based thanks to Boots Randolph

But the real baffling bit of information is based on a bacchanal bellowing baculine clarinets beckoning a badinage of Bechet bebop.
 
The Buffet with a mysterious B,
Is from "UK", over the C
But the B with the "B"
Is 440 H Z
That's an A, not a B, you C

(NB Z= Zee, not Zed....)
 
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Ahem

I think we are wandering off the path here....

Here are a couple of pictures to show the stamp. Steve, please feel free to copy and paste, or let me know if you want the higher resolution versions.

pair2UK.jpg


UKsingle.jpg


On the Clarinet BBoard, there has been suggestion that RCs (and not R13s) were stamped UK. As much as I would like to believe that, the Buffet web site finds the

(B)143xxx Bb as: R 13 Am?rique 17/01/74
144xxx A as: La Am?rique 18/02/1974

I know the Buffet serial search is not always accurate, but I understand that if no model is given, assume it is a R13 (as I did for the A) and the Bb shows as a R13. So I can't see how they could be RCs.

It was also suggested on the BBoard that I could tell if it was an RC by feeling the LJ to bell joint inside the bell. It was said that a R13 is wider inside the bottom joint than the entrance to the bell, so in a R13 I would feel a step as the wider LJ hits the narrower bell bore. The RC apparently has no step.

I had not come across that identifying feature before, so mention it for interest. Unfortunately it was not said how big the step may be. In my instruments the lower joint is indeed fractionally wider than bell bore it joins, but less than 1mm. Difficult to photo but I had a go:

LJtobell.jpg


Any thoughts on the B prefix to the Bb serial number?

And as for my metal Selmers, they may be coy, but they are not promiscuous. They're staying!!

Chris
 
I'll provide some pics and measurements from the following instruments to compare to your R13s

[1] a 1974 R13
[2] a 1969ish BC-20 - this is a F prefix high pitch 442 instrument
[3] a modern RC Prestige becz I ain't got an early RC :p
[4] a S-1

but one identifier is the location of the register vent - numbers measured from - mid reg vent to upper joint shoulder (ie, excluding the tenon). For example:
reg vent
BC-20 15.6mm

1965 R-13 18.95

1969 R13 19
 
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Mid reg vent to top of joint, excluding tenon
18.75
Closer to Steve's R13


Steve - if you have an R13 of the same year as mine, then a few choice measurements from your for comparison should clinch it.

Are there any distinguishing key work features that would help, so I can take other pictures?

I think we are going to prove my instruments are R13s but I am interested to get further about the UK stamp. I assume it is for the same reason as the UK stamp on the RCs and S1s - but why?

And the B prefix to the serial?....
 
Thus we have learned that there are
S1s
RCs
R13s

all three were stamped UK and of course, found in the UK.

One theory was that the R13 in question was actually an RC

But then why would the RC and S1s have a UK stamp. And why stamp an RC or S1 if it was not what the model stamp was?

When did Boosey & Hawkes take over Buffet ? 1980/81

but we're talking 1974 here .. 6 years earlier. Maybe they were samples sent to B&H as business dealing back then took a bit longer than today.

we'll see when I measure up a few .. shortly
 
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There seems to be enough in circulation to suggest they are more than samples.

In this advert a pair of a pair of RCs (stamped UK), the seller is suggesting that the first production targeted the UK, to explain the stamp.

http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/Sagi-RCs.html

That doesn't ring true. There were R13s before and after, so why stamp them to differentiate them to the purchaser from other R13s unless they were different in some way?

Others are:
http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/RCinA-Davies.html
http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/PersisRC-Pair.html
http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/Ingamells-S1s.html

I have just sent an email to the UK Buffet contact. I wonder if I will get a reply.

Chris
 
It's quite amazing how many clarinet players are around. In my neighborhood I can pick up a variety of Buffets to do these comparisons.

For some reason I thought I had a 1974 R13, but alas it is a 1971. So I went searching around but no 1974.

So I measured up a few instruments anyways


In the end I compared a
  • Pre R13 Master Bore 42xxx ...... year 1951
  • R 13 87xxx, 106xxx & 117xxx ..... years 1965, 1969, 1971
  • S1 125xxx ..... year 1971
  • BC20 F98xxx ..... year 1967
  • RC Prestige 375xxx ..... year 1990
and for utmost comparison I added a Selmer Centered Tone from my notes. The CT has cylindrical toneholes no overcutting.
I also added a 1992 R13 & Vintage R13 and Leblanc LL from notes

picture.php
 
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I measure several items:
  • Upper Joint Inbound Bore (where the barrel fits on)
  • Upper Joint Outbound Bore (where the lower joint fits on)
  • the 2 ring key toneholes
  • and the C/G tonehole diameters


INBOUND / OUTBOUND BORE MEASUREMENTS
To measure the upper joint inbound and outbound bore I used a special device which one inserts into the bore. This device is as close to perfectly round as possible with Clarinet Bore Measuring Tool
http://www.ferreestools.com/index_files/Page110.htm
image9387.jpg

The basic concept is that you insert this tool into the bore, you adjust the sleeve to the stopping point, and then you use calipers to measure the diameter of the tool at the point that the sleeve is. This will give you the bore diameter. Of course, if the bore itself is not perfectly round the tool will stop. You can "shove" it in to get a few more portions of a millimeter. Just like you can use a caliper and "push" it and the measurement will be different. Thus when measuring one has to be as light as possible for an accurate measurement. But is it quite easy to measure something several times and get several different measurements. Thus being light is key for repeatability.

You can measure with just a caliper but I recommend measuring in 3 spots around the bore. This will allow one to see the variation and take the smallest of avg of them.

TONEHOLE MEASUREMENTS
To measure the toneholes one has to be really careful. The reason is the Buffet toneholes have undercutting and overcutting. basically the toneholes are hourglass shaped. Thus one, for consistent measuring, has to measure the smallest diameter of the tonehole. Measuring other areas of it require practice. When I analyse a clarinet I will measure not only the mid point of the hourglass shape but also the overcut max diameter right at the lip of the tonehole. I have not found a method to accurate and repeatability way of measuring the undercut.

REGISTER VENT
The measurement of the register vent is it's location from mid point of the register vent to the shoulder of the upper joint. This excludes the tenon. When a clarinet has no keys on it this can be accurately measured. With the keys on one has to eye it a bit. You open the key and measure it going down both in front and behind the key for a proper perspective.
 
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Year/ ......... UJ Entry ..... UJ Exit .... Register
Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

1951 Pre R13 ...14.77 ......... 14.55 ........ 18.45

1965 R13 ........14.90 ..........14.63 ........ 18.52

1969 R13 ........14.94 ..........14.60 ........ 18.76

1971 R13 ........14.85 ..........14.44 ........ 18.3

1971 S1 ..........14.81 ..........14.49 ........ 16.0

1967 BC-20 .....14.86 ...........14.56 ........ 15.6

1990 RC P .......14.95 ...........14.59 ........ 15.6

one problem i have with these measurements is that I know sometimes I will lightly push the tool into the bore. But in order to adjust the sleeve I have to make sure there's no wiggle room as I'm holding the instrument with the other hand and one hand inserts and adjusts the tool, unless I'm holding it vertically which I do sometimes. I'm wondering how much african blackwood can compress under low stress loads at a small deflection point. Of course, this can make the measurements variable with the same instrument under different measuring techniques.
 
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next we have the tonehole diameters of the ring keys and the C/G

...... .......... 1971 R13 ...... S1 ...... BC-20 .... RC P ... PreR13 .... 1965 R13 ..... 1969 R13 ..... Selmer CT .. 1992 R13 .. Vintage .. LL
1st ring .......... 5.44 ........ 4.95 ..... 4.98 ...... 4.71 ..... 4.93 ........ 4.95 ............4.87 ................ 5.2 ........ .. 4.45 ..... 4.83 ...... 5.26

2nd ring ......... 6.54 ......... 6.62 ..... 6.55 ...... 6.32 ..... 6.68 ........ 6.66 ............6.45 ............... 7.17 ......... 6.38 ...... 6.61 ...... 7.19

C/G ............... 7.50 ........ 7.63 ...... 7.56 ...... 7.32 ..... 7.64 ........ 7.60 ............7.42 ............... 8.15 ......... 7.47 ...... 7.8 ........ 7.98
 
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Now I believe I previously mentioned that I keep a spreadsheet of measurements which include ALL Toneholes and overcuts both the location from the shoulder of the UJ and the diameters. And also lower joint measurements (sometimes).

I've learned how to measure things more carefully over time but as mentioned one can get multiple measurements per tonehole until one learns to be very light on the calipers. Variations of half a millimeter is very easy.

I've been meaning on doing a "presentation" of findings but it is easily seen that things varied over time. They varied from design tweaks but I also think that they may have varied from so manual manual tasks can't be perfect all the time.

On another note, an odd design characteristic of the Vintage R13 is that many the toneholes were not hourglass shaped. The instrument was designed to be very similar to a 1955 R13 but is not designed the same way. I know at one time I had a 51xxx and a 55xxx 1951 R13s. They all sounded the same in nearly every regard except the Vintages were more free blowing.
 
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Steve

Wow

Just wow!

Being a budding instrument geek, I find the evolution of design quite interesting, eventhough the physics behind the changes goes right over my head!

So my clarinet

UJ entry
14.7, 14.6, 14.6, 14.55 average = 14.61 (Steve's closest is pre R13)

UJ exit
14.6, 14.6, 14.6, 14.55 average = 14.58 (Steve's closest is 1990 RC P, also 1967 BC-20 and 1965 R13)

Register
= 18.75 (Steve's closest is 1969 R13 - certainly in the R13 range c.f. others)

First ring
4.8, 4.6 average = 4.7 (hard to measure with my calipers) (Steve's closest is RC P, also Vintage R13)

Second ring
6.3, 6.3 average = 6.3 (Steve's closest is RC P)

C/G
7.4, 7.2 average = 7.3 (Steve's closest is RC P)

I think the defining feature is clearly register to shoulder of tenon making my instrument an R13

The other values are quite close to the other R13 measurements, and I can see a fair degree of user error in the measurements, as although when more than one measurement was taken above, they were in different directions across the tone hole, even when repeating the same direction, results can differ.

So I can definitely say my pair are R13s

But

I still have no idea what the "UK" stamp denotes, and why I have a B prefix to the Bb serial

But sincere thanks to Steve for taking these measurements. It is interesting how the same instrument can vary in so many ways...

Chris
 
I think the real key (pun intended) is the register location.
There is a clear difference between the R13 and RC instruments in this design.

As to the UK, as mentioned on the Clarinet BBoard I think it was a marketing tool. For Buffet to break into the B&H market as everything UK seemed to swirl around B&H. Then, of course, subsequently for B&H to buy Buffet a few years later.

The UK stamp looks like an afterthought in a way. It was just stamped where ever there was room. The pics of an S1 with the stamp really shows no room for that UK stamp but it was still placed between the A key and the Buffet stamp.

I'd be curious on a Buffet UK response too .. if anyone remembers.
 
as time goes on one learns things like ... the register vent bore isn't cylindrical .. it's multi-tapered. how does one measure that small thing ? And what affects are there on diameter and length.
Needless to say .. I've got some small metal tubes now I can cut to length (small plumbers cutter) then bore out ...

For instance on a Buffet (Shreiber) E-11 "A" the vent is long (the longest I've seen).
http://www.ClarinetPerfection.com/clsnBuffet.htm#E11
cl04a.jpg

cl03a.jpg
 
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