Dropping a Dime on Eb
- Thread starter Henry D
- Start date
Santy Runyon developed a Bis key doohickey (I think that's the technical term) for the soprano clarinet.
http://runyonproducts.com/clar.bis.html
http://runyonproducts.com/clar.bis.html
Modern bass clarinets use the same method.
- For either Eb or Bb you have to close the small hole, and it is not so comfortable to do this and press the Bis key. Especially when keys are curved like those on your bass seem to me (mine are straight which personally I prefer).
- Because of the small hole in the F# key, I like to have an extension for this key like the modern models have. This makes it more comfortable to finger notes when you want this small hole open. The extension will make the Bis key further away from the hole making it basically impossible to use it, if there is enough space to have one at all.
- The Bis fingering won't really help me with any fingering I ever want to do. The Eb is not great on almsot all clarinets (slightly better on some bass clarinets) and I only use this i.e. the 1-1 fingering, for some fast playing. I also rarely use the 1-1 Bb. Bis fingering woudln't help me.
But if someone wants the Bis key and it helps them, I can't see a problem with that.
Clarinet is my first instrument and I don't think anything like that, IMO no problem if someone wants to use the Bis key at all. But there are a few reasons why I personally wouldn't one on my bass clarinet.
- For either Eb or Bb you have to close the small hole, and it is not so comfortable to do this and press the Bis key. Especially when keys are curved like those on your bass seem to me (mine are straight which personally I prefer).
- Because of the small hole in the F# key, I like to have an extension for this key like the modern models have. This makes it more comfortable to finger notes when you want this small hole open. The extension will make the Bis key further away from the hole making it basically impossible to use it, if there is enough space to have one at all.
- The Bis fingering won't really help me with any fingering I ever want to do. The Eb is not great on almsot all clarinets (slightly better on some bass clarinets) and I only use this i.e. the 1-1 fingering, for some fast playing. I also rarely use the 1-1 Bb. Bis fingering woudln't help me.
But if someone wants the Bis key and it helps them, I can't see a problem with that.
I've had one of these in my junk box for years, and now I know what it is. Thanks!
Hi Henry
By the way, you are the person who emailed me about the idea of the fixing the hinge tube play yes?
Re using the Bis while sealing the small hole, yes that depends on finger sausageness
Just realized another problem I would have with a Bis. Since it has to be very close to the F# key, to allow closing the hole and pressing it at the same time, it would interfere with some fingerings that need the small vent hole open and Bis open too. From what I remember one fingering for altisimo A, one fingering for altisimo C# and several other altisimo fingerings. I use these fingerings often.
By the way, you are the person who emailed me about the idea of the fixing the hinge tube play yes?
I use the name of the note that is playing when pressing the key. Thumb is F/C, second finger is D/A, etc. The left hand first finger key is a little unique in that it doesn't really have a corresponding 12th note so I just call it the F# key. It's easier for soprano clarinets since there is a ring and a key but bass clarinets have two keys actually.
Re using the Bis while sealing the small hole, yes that depends on finger sausageness
Just realized another problem I would have with a Bis. Since it has to be very close to the F# key, to allow closing the hole and pressing it at the same time, it would interfere with some fingerings that need the small vent hole open and Bis open too. From what I remember one fingering for altisimo A, one fingering for altisimo C# and several other altisimo fingerings. I use these fingerings often.
I will check that on my bass clarinet later. On soprano clarinets the main problem of the Eb is that the tone is not great and that it is very sharp. Playing it Eis instead of 1-1 usually makes this even worse. Adding more right hand fingers even down to F/C helps but pretty much defeats the purpose... though I still use that fingering occasionally. Though from what I remember Eb both Eis and 1-1 work a bit better on bass clarinets generally so I need to check.
Hmm... what key? I meant specifically a situation that you press the F# key with the vent open but don't press the Bis key. It's possible, but in the way the keys are in the photo and with the way I like to press the F# when leaving the vent open, it wouldn't be possible, or at least not comfortable. How/where do you press the F# key when you do this?
It's not my first langauge so I don't know, I just made it up, so... you tell meAnd isn't the correct term "sausageneity ?"
I'm sure that it's been mentioned before, but the fork Eb (on the upper joint, as opposed to the horrible Leblanc fork Eb on the lower joint) has been around for well over a century now. It's a bit hard to come by except through Amati (not my favorite manufacturer) or in the secondary market (where you pays yer money and takes yer chances), but it works very well and (more importantly) without displacing a finger off the appropriate tone hole.
Chris P, over on the Saxophone forum, has written about adding this key onto clarinets. He seems to think that it would not be that difficult. However, from some of the excellent projects that he has shown us in the past, "difficult" is a variable term. (Indeed, it appears that he could rebuild a clarinet from which only the open space of the tone holes still remained.)
Selmer and Leblanc and Heckel used to offer this (and a number of other keywork variants) on special order from the distributor, but an apparent lack of demand killed that off deader than dead. So, in a way, it's all your fault...
Chris P, over on the Saxophone forum, has written about adding this key onto clarinets. He seems to think that it would not be that difficult. However, from some of the excellent projects that he has shown us in the past, "difficult" is a variable term. (Indeed, it appears that he could rebuild a clarinet from which only the open space of the tone holes still remained.)
Selmer and Leblanc and Heckel used to offer this (and a number of other keywork variants) on special order from the distributor, but an apparent lack of demand killed that off deader than dead. So, in a way, it's all your fault...
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There's a proper technique?
FWIW, there's probably a bunch of proper techniques, depending on the player, music, style, etc.
Of course there is a proper (fingering) technique, just as there is a proper hand position, proper posture, proper breath support, etc. Proper technique is built around the most effective use of alternate fingerings in any given pattern of notes. All well written technical studies take the player through exercises designed to teach the "proper technique" for difficult passages in the music.
Traditional clarinet pedagogy does not include the use or need of a "bis" key to play Eb/Bb. The key design by Boehm has served clarinetists well for 170 years. There have been a few practical innovations such as the LH Eb key, but adding a "bis" key does not fall into this category IMO.
John
> The key design by Boehm has served clarinetists well for 170 years.
For the people that use the Boehm fingering system. I think you'll get some other comments by SOTSDO and other folks that use alternate systems.
Also, what about full Boehm system instruments? The ones we've discussed in this thread are partial Boehm, I believe.
> There have been a few practical innovations such as the LH Eb key, but adding a "bis" key does not fall into this category IMO.
I think it's more, "If you like it and see a benefit, why not?"
I'd think the fingering wouldn't necessarily be that bad, but I don't know if I, personally, would get that much use out of it, just like I don't think I'd get that much use out of a full Boehm instrument or a low C bass, for that matter. But it'd be kewl to have one.
For the people that use the Boehm fingering system. I think you'll get some other comments by SOTSDO and other folks that use alternate systems
.Also, what about full Boehm system instruments? The ones we've discussed in this thread are partial Boehm, I believe.
> There have been a few practical innovations such as the LH Eb key, but adding a "bis" key does not fall into this category IMO.
I think it's more, "If you like it and see a benefit, why not?"
I'd think the fingering wouldn't necessarily be that bad, but I don't know if I, personally, would get that much use out of it, just like I don't think I'd get that much use out of a full Boehm instrument or a low C bass, for that matter. But it'd be kewl to have one.
I think the bis key can be quite useful.
Tremolo from G to Bb anyone? How about tremolo from C to Eb? Db/Eb trill?
These things come up all the time in stage musicals, and the bis key is the easiest solution to these technical problems.
I think the term Standard Boehm is for "regular" clarinets
then enhanced boehm
then full boehm (for all options plus the Bb/Eb)
but, truthfully, what the hey .. very few manufacturers make all the options nowadays anyways as Terry said. I thought it was an interesting discussion for those interested in the various options.
For those of us with hands suited to playing the Eb clarinet, the bis key is only a dream, as those darned toneholes don't like it when you pull your finger off to one side. I have tried the add-on bis on Bb and A and found them totally useless. Now if I had hands that could play an open hole bass it might be a different story.
If there was a workable bis I would have it on all my clarinets.
If there was a workable bis I would have it on all my clarinets.
Adding the space in the case for an A clarinet has been the traditional way to solve the technical weakness of the key layout design when playing in "remote" keys.
That is technically true, but I disagree with this idea. Trying to translate to English, what we would say here is that in music, all means are acceptable. All that is important is to get the result you want. You can use ANY way to play it. If a Bis key helps someone play something that would otherwise struggle with, no problem IMO!
You heard some of my playing I think... I don't think you heard technical problems? I can say that the way I move my fingers is definitely not the technically correct way. Back in high school, around the time my hands finished growing, I had a GREAT (classical) teacher and she spent a lot of time trying to correct my fingers. Nothing worked and this is just how I play.
It should also be added here that Oswald Boehm, while a very clever fellow, spent his time working to perfect (if that word can be used for such an instrument) the flute. He did nothing to make our clarinets play better.
The brille (German for "eyeglasses") keys that he devised to tame the flute were adapted to the "simple" clarinet by technicians working under the general guidance of the Frenchman Klosé (he of the teaching methods; also, note neat accent used there), and the 'Boehm' clarinet ought to be called the "Boehm/Klosé clarinet", at the very least.
And, I still say that the "full Boehm" clarinet is the solution for just about every clarinet problem that I have seen presented. True, it will not sustain a E1 to E4 tremolo (only a EWI can do that with felicity), but the three extra bits of keywork make all of the difference in the world. If for no other reason, people should adopt them to avoid having to put nose grease on the RH little finger keywork for "sliding".
But, I'm the guy who also plays Albert system bass clarinets, so what do I know?
The brille (German for "eyeglasses") keys that he devised to tame the flute were adapted to the "simple" clarinet by technicians working under the general guidance of the Frenchman Klosé (he of the teaching methods; also, note neat accent used there), and the 'Boehm' clarinet ought to be called the "Boehm/Klosé clarinet", at the very least.
And, I still say that the "full Boehm" clarinet is the solution for just about every clarinet problem that I have seen presented. True, it will not sustain a E1 to E4 tremolo (only a EWI can do that with felicity), but the three extra bits of keywork make all of the difference in the world. If for no other reason, people should adopt them to avoid having to put nose grease on the RH little finger keywork for "sliding".
But, I'm the guy who also plays Albert system bass clarinets, so what do I know?