For those who still think the sax and mouthpiece determine the sound you get

jbtsax

jbtsax

Distinguished Member
Distinguished Member
This new video by Don Menza is amazing. http://www.cannonballmusic.com/don1.php

About halfway through, he demonstrates the sound that other famous tenor players get while playing on the same saxophone and set-up throughout. He shows that it is not the equipment that makes a difference, but the concept in the player's mind and his/her ability to control the sound.

John
 
Interesting video.

Coping a style has a lot to do with more than just tone. He also showed it in the lines that he played when he was talking about other players. The notes played and the approach taken play a huge role in what you sound like.
 
Sure.

That's what we as the audience hear.

On the other hand, I'm sure Don, as the player, could tell us all about how every mouthpiece and horn feel and respond differently too.

He certainly has preferences based upon those considerations.
 
You know, one of the reasons I don't like metal mouthpieces is because of how they feel. I don't like the feel of four pounds of cold metal in my mouth. And I feel that the mouthpiece vibrates a lot more, too.

(Yes, I know they weigh less than four pounds, even for bari sax, but that's how it feels.)
 
MartinMods said:
Sure.
That's what we as the audience hear.
On the other hand, I'm sure Don, as the player, could tell us all about how every mouthpiece and horn feel and respond differently too.
He certainly has preferences based upon those considerations.
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That is true. However, Don Menza will sound like Don Menza regardless of what saxophone or set up he is playing on.
 
SOTSDO said:
So, what you're telling us is that you are a mouth wimp, right?

(I'd put a smiley here, but I took a vow never to use them...)
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I'm told I have a small and delicate mouth :p.
 
I'm with Pete as not being a metal mouthpiece fan. Same issues. I find them cold and they transmit too many vibrations.

Don could find his sound on a whole bunch of setups but I have always argued that the key to finding your sound is to use equipment that gets out of the way. You shouldn't have to work too hard at getting the tone you want. Leave the hard work for all of the technique! :)
 
That is well said Ed. The equipment is simply a means to an end. Some setups are more efficient that others in helping to get to that sound. Mouthpieces, ligatures, reeds, saxophones don't "create" the sound produced, they "facilitate" the sound.

A fairly accomplished high school tenor saxophone player came into our store to buy a classical mouthpiece to get a more controlled sound for concert band. The salesman sent him downstairs to the repair shop to see if I could help him select a mouthpiece. It seems that the problem was that on every "ligit" mouthpiece he tried he sounded the same as did on his current mouthpiece after a few minutes of playing.

He was already playing on an Ernie Northway stock mouthpiece which is an excellent "middle of the road piece" that can be used both in concert band and in jazz ensemble. I asked him to him play a bit, and then asked him who he listened to in order to get a concept of a good classical tenor sax sound. He sheepishly admitted that he had never listened to a classical tenor saxophonist, but he could name lots of jazz/rock players that he had recordings of.

Rather than help the salesman sell him another mouthpiece (he didn't need) for classical playing I gave him the names of James Houlik, and Stephen Pollock to download some music to listen to and suggested that he buy one or more of the works on the recordings to learn and play along with those artists to develop a concept of sound.

I took some flack from my boss for not pushing the mouthpiece sale, but that's ok. I believe that if the kid takes my advice and sees what a difference it makes in his playing that some customer loyalty will grow from that experience. That last think the student needed at that time was a different mouthpiece.
 
jbtsax said:
I took some flack from my boss for not pushing the mouthpiece sale, but that's ok. I believe that if the kid takes my advice and sees what a difference it makes in his playing that some customer loyalty will grow from that experience. That last think the student needed at that time was a different mouthpiece.
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It must be hard to convince most marketing manager types that establishing a reputation as a fair and balanced music store looking after the needs of the customer is more important that selling one mouthpiece that really isn't necessary. My hat is off to you John.
 
Thank you. I just noticed how funny (and true) my typo in that statement you quoted turned out to be. ("think" instead of "thing")
 
It is an interesting phenomena that we're seeing: high school students being encouraged to buy different mouthpieces for different bands. I don't remember this from my days in school... Back when dinosaurs walked the earth... ;-) Just kidding... Actually I'm referring to the late '70s/early '80s.

I'm working with a student right now whose parents were told by his high school teacher--not a sax player--that they might consider getting a Berg Larsen or Otto Link tenor mouthpiece for him. Problem is, the kid doesn't own a tenor. It's the school's horn that he uses in jazz band, and it of course only has a P.O.S. mouthpiece that came with the P.O.S. horn. My student owns an alto that he uses in concert band, and there's a different teacher for that. Don't even get me going on the rest of the problems with the teacher's suggestions on mouthpiece choices...

The point is, it's funny how schools are now suddenly--or perhaps not so suddenly--encouraging their students to start down the road of mouthpiece experimentation, when, as has been so rightly pointed a number of times already on this thread, gear is just one piece of the equation. There are a whole lot of other things that should, and need to be considered first. I think these music teachers are really doing their students a serious disservice.
 
Helen said:
There are a whole lot of other things that should, and need to be considered first. I think these music teachers are really doing their students a serious disservice.
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Where's the "like" button when we need it?

Nothing against swapping a POS beak for a reliable one. Needn't be a high dollar part. Nothing against getting a beaten-up school horn into playable shape. Needn't be a MKVI (or whatever's de rigueur these days). What makes me cringe is the gulp-this-pill-sight-unseen approach. As if ten different problems didn't have ten potentially different causes...
 
Helen said:
It is an interesting phenomena that we're seeing: high school students being encouraged to buy different mouthpieces for different bands. I don't remember this from my days in school... Back when dinosaurs walked the earth... ;-) Just kidding... Actually I'm referring to the late '70s/early '80s.

I'm working with a student right now whose parents were told by his high school teacher--not a sax player--that they might consider getting a Berg Larsen or Otto Link tenor mouthpiece for him. Problem is, the kid doesn't own a tenor. It's the school's horn that he uses in jazz band, and it of course only has a P.O.S. mouthpiece that came with the P.O.S. horn. My student owns an alto that he uses in concert band, and there's a different teacher for that. Don't even get me going on the rest of the problems with the teacher's suggestions on mouthpiece choices...

The point is, it's funny how schools are now suddenly--or perhaps not so suddenly--encouraging their students to start down the road of mouthpiece experimentation, when, as has been so rightly pointed a number of times already on this thread, gear is just one piece of the equation. There are a whole lot of other things that should, and need to be considered first. I think these music teachers are really doing their students a serious disservice.
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+1.

As mentioned here many times, I was mainly a classical player and because my sax instructor was a 2nd gen student of Sigurd Rascher and his instructor (my professor in college) was a 1st gen student of Sigurd Rascher, I used a ... Sigurd Rascher mouthpiece. The basic reason behind that was, in my opinion, for me to play the way my instructors wanted me to play, embochure wise, the Rascher was the "best" choice. Hey, if I've got the same mouthpiece as my instructors, one would assume that they can teach me some ways of working around the mouthpiece's idiosyncrasies.

However, I'd never recommend to a beginner to get a Rascher mouthpiece. Heck, I wouldn't recommend it to just about anyone EXCEPT people in the "Rascher School" of playing or people with vintage instruments -- and, in the latter case, it's only because I've heard more positive things about using a large chamber mouthpiece on, say, a 1925 Buescher True Tone, than I've heard negative things.

However (2), I do think that it'd be a bit difficult for me (or my former instructors) to play "Giant Steps" and sound like Coltrane using the Rascher 'piece. The reason WHY I mention this specific example is because one of those instructors tried that with the Rascher. He did hit the notes, but didn't sound right. He then tried with his Otto Link metal 'piece (IIRC) and sounded much better.

That's a rather extreme example, though :).
 
jbtsax said:
I took some flack from my boss for not pushing the mouthpiece sale
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One of many advantages of not having a boss :)

But lucky for the student he got to a place where he could get good advice. Although some mouthpieces are truely lousy... I've seen some where an inexpensive but decent student model mouthpiece made a huge imporvement. But too many people waste time/money on mouthpieces when they should probably invest in other things.

Occasionally someone comes here with several valuable mouthpieces and starts teelling me about them. Recently someone eventually decided against investing the $200-$300 required to fix his saxophone, but had three very expensive mouthpieces. He then demonstrated them and sounded a bit different on each. They were completely different designed mouthpieces. He sounded mediocre on all. I then tried one of them and it was nearly unplayable, with several stuffy notes hard to respond. He could have had his sax fixed for the cost of one of his mouthpieces, and probably sound better with a decent student mouthpiece or a good Vandoren/Selmer/etc. mouthpiece.

This thing is not limited to any type of player and I see players of all levels do this, but most common it is for amateur that are decent but not great level. "Surprisingly" more than a few excellent professional players just use the mouthpiece they have always been using for many years.
 
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