General Discussion - Voice

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
Strange I didn't create a forum area for "General" doubling stuff. No matter. The way we've set up these areas makes it pretty easy to use this area for "General" posts.

Anyhow.

You could say that I double on vocals. That's not exactly true because I've never had a gig where I'm playing for 128 measures on sax and then have to stop and sing a high C for 16 measures and then finish the piece on bass clarinet, but I have had more than one occasion where I've played through my standard 32 minutes of instrumental stuff and then I have to toddle off to join the choir. (Thankfully, when I've sung barbershop quartet I only had to concentrate on vocal stuff. And I do have a video somewhere of that performance -- I sang lead tenor.)

Further, I insist that I have NO talent playing sax or clarinet -- any ability I have with those instruments came from really hard work -- but I think I do have vocal talent. At least that's what I've been told. And by people not related to me. Pity that that talent really didn't develop until about 8+ years ago, tho ....

So, anyone else out there both sing and play?

Oh. Ed and/or Jim can explain the number choices to you, if you're interested.
 
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I have a fair number of band vocals in my group's library, so you could say that my horn players are all vocalists to some extent. Oddly enough, it's hard to get people out of their shells on this, even when it is essential to the proper performance of the piece.

For example, we have an arrangement of Play That Funky Music, White Boy in which the horns carry the entire chorus. Sure, it's semi-comic and in an easy key, but it's what "makes" the tune. Getting guys (and gals) to sound off like they have a pair is an effort at times.

And, if that's difficult, imagine what it is like to get them to sing in Spanish for the choruses on In These Shoes?
 
Hey, I can sing Latin! I can Agnus Dei with the best of 'em!

What? Sorry. Wrong kind of Latin.

Seriously, the main reason why I don't quite like singing in different languages (I have sung Latin, some Spanish, some Italian and I can fool around with Japanese), is because I can only understand what I'm singing in English and Latin. I'm not embarrassed to try something different, per se, I just don't want to make a fool of myself to someone who can actually speak the language.
 
So with a little more than just trepidation I ask this question. Are most jazz vocalists crazy people? My group, the Dissonance, has gone through three singers in two years. The first one decided it was too much work, the second one died (don't wanna talk about that as she was a dear friend and way too young) and the third couldn't read music. Specifically, she couldn't count so she had a hard time coming in unless she'd memorized the song.

I luv having a singer with the group, but I guess I'll just have to keep looking. But the member of the xTet say singer are almost always problems. Really?
 
Well, I just went in to the neurologist and he said that it's treatable with drugs ....

Oh. Sorry. Overshare.

I've played in a couple groups that have had jazz singers -- swing, really -- and they weren't too bad.
 
I'm Jones'ing for a good singer for two bands. So I guess I'll start asking around again. Need someone who can:
  • Sing in different styles
  • Count (Um I'm only half kidding)
  • Be dependable
  • Be happy with singing only two or three songs in an hour
It will be interesting to see how this goes.
 
I do a few vocals with the Golden Eagle Jazz Band. I did the same in other bands with which I was associated over the years. Yes, it is difficult to go out front on a vocal, but once I broke the ice, it became easier for me.

Folks compliment my vocals, so I guess they aren't as bad as I thought they may be. I think a decent vocal adds a lot to a tune - lyrics always seem to help the audience (and the other players) better understand the tune.

Some that I sing are -

AUNT HAGAR'S CHILDREN (W.C. Handy)
TISHOMINGO BLUES (Spencer Willaims)
DOWN IN HONKY TONKY TOWN
MELANCHOLY BLUES
TERRIBLE BLUES (Clarence Williams)
SAN FRANCISCO BAY BLUES
2:19 BLUES (aka MAMIE DESDUME's BLUES - J.R. Morton)
WHININ' BOY (Morton)

DAVE
 
The world of vocalists

In order to understand them, you really need to think like a vocalist. Some observations:

o They usually don't read the notes in music for the very simple reason that it is hard to correlate a given pitch with a given note on the page. Instead, they learn intervals and are thus able to relate a tune to a given pitch (as in a cue) by reasoning out the various up a third, down a fifth and so forth intervals.

o Since they don't read notes, many of them have never seen the need to understand any of the rest of the notation. I have placed ads that clearly state "MUST READ MUSIC", yet will have any number who will lie and say that they can (during the phone call), only to get shown up the first time that they step up to the mike. While I can forgive the first point above, the second is unconscionable. Knowing that there's an eight bar intro is all well and good, but they need to know when an adjustment has to be done and suddenly their eight bars turns into twelve.

o Having said all of this, there are any number of excellent vocalists (as far as looks, charisma, tone and the like are concerned) who are well worth having on board as long as they are willing to learn. And, this is where they tend to fail. Either they are not willing to put in rehearsal time to learn additional tunes, or they can't read enough music to learn the tunes on their own time so that they only need a tune up rehearsal before performing them. Either one is a catastrophy, and I don't want to have such a person around unless it is absolutely necessary.

o Finally, and this is a particular sore spot with the musicians, many vocalists think that they are somehow "special" and thus exempt from the many elements that lead up to doing a decent performance. Not wanting to rehearse is a big one of these (them cute gals like to spend the night before out on the town, not getting up for a 9:00 AM rehearsal on our only available day), but right up there with them are not being willing to sing backup, not being willing to expand out of their genre, not willing to help with teardown, and not being prompt on the bandstand when it's their time to shine. I can tell plenty of stories about each of these, and a vocalist who steers clear of them all is a treasure indeed.

I have recently lost four vocalists. The prize three moved, one far out of state, and two to north and central Texas (which is as bad as moving to another state anywhere else in the Union). As a result, over the past four weeks I have run an ad for vocalists in the local "alternative newspaper", and have gotten about twenty five responses.

Of the twenty five:

A. Ten or so I discouraged up front, as being obviously unable to read rests, much less music. If they don't know if they are an alto, mezzo, baritone or tenor, it's usually a good sign that they will fall in this first category.

B. Of the remainder, about six more got screened out by getting cold feet (or by belonging in the first category but not wanting to tell me about it up front). I program five at a rehearsal, knowing full well that one or two will invariably not show up.

C. Of the residual of the above processes, we will get perhaps four at a given rehearsal. This past week was typical, with five scheduled (plus one piano player), but with only four vocalists (two girl, two boy) and no piano player showing. That's when it gets interesting.

Generally, once you get this far, they are either up to the task or they are not, with no grey area. In this case, it was much the same. The two girls were both excellent, even when you consider that one could not do much with reading music. One of the boys was also excellent, with a full command of Sinatra and Darin and rock stuff. All tested out well on adaptability, willingness to cross genres, stage presence, and with singing backup when needed.

And then there was boy singer number two. On the morning of the tryout, he tells me that he's primarily a country and western singer, something not mentioned at all during our telephone contact. No problem there, as long as he's willing to learn. I ask him to pick four tunes from our country assortment, to try some of the Elvis country numbers as they are easier than most, and we'll run them for him one in turn with the other vocalists.

First tune was the every popular Crazy, done in the original Willie Nelson key (since we've found it's better for the instrumentalists to adjust to a odd key than it is for a vocalist to shift). In this case, however, the precaution was in vain - the guy couldn't even stay on pitch through most of the number. Not a problem; that's why we go with more than one tune. Stee-rike one, but you get two more so not to worry.

(Later on, when the other boy singer did Twist and Shout, we asked boy number 2 to sing backup. As anyone in the bidness knows, this is not a complicated number, and the girls readily joined my lovely wife in filling in the echos and the "Ahhh - ahhh - ahhh - ahhh!" parts, but boy number 2 could or would not join in. Uh, oh - not a good sign.)

Up he comes in the rotation again, and this time he tries He'll Have To Go, which he claims he knows backwards and forwards. Again, way off pitch, and he doesn't know the timing and entries either. Stee-rike two, as they say in at the ball yard.

Comes the third time around in the rotation, I ask what he wants to do and he says that he doesn't know any of the other tunes out of the nigh on a thousand that we carry. None of the Elvis country stuff, not Funny How Time Slips Away - he had shot his bolt. I told him to take his time and look around a bit more, but he decides that it's better that he takes his leave, slipping out when I was involved with a technical question with one of the girls. Sad, a waste of his time and of ours, but what are you going to do when ego gets in the way of reality.

We've got another five scheduled for this week, and I'm interested to see just how many show this time. My wife has taken to going with the presumed shortfall of one or two, and orders donuts and coffee accordingly.

Unlike most groups of our general instrumentation (5444), we do a lot of vocals, as many as 75 to 80% of the total during a given performance. I may open and close with instrumentals, and may use a higher proportion of them during the "dinner" and "dessert" sets at a charity benefit, but by and large I find the crowd better connects with a vocalist up front than with a fire-breathing jazz tune with no vocalist. Virtually every dance set tune is a vocal, plain and simple.

I've been told that a vocalist adds about twenty percent value to an entertainment (with theatrical lighting adding perhaps another 25%, just on its own). From the different reception that we get (dance floor occupancy, inquiries from audience members and general comments during the band breaks) when there is a vocal heavy performance as opposed to a instrumental one only, I'm inclined to believe that figure, or maybe value it a bit higher.

I attribute part of this to the general ability of a typical audience member to better relate to a singer (which most people can do to some extent or another) than to a instrumentalist (where skills are at a much lower level in the general population). Playing Someone To Watch Over Me is entertaining, but listening to a skilled vocalist doing the same thing in front of a musical group is both that and engaging.

To move one step farther, the right vocalist (or vocalists) out front can jack up this value even higher. A good looking guy or gal, or a well-coordinated girl group will literally enthrall the crowd. Stack three or four of these together, while tying them together with the right bridging "patter", and you really get things cooking.

As I'm up front on the stand, I make it a point to study the reception that we get when performing certain tunes, and I note that a good instrumental will command some attention from the crowd, but nothing more. A good vocal will usually grab three quarters of the heads at the tables (you can particularly gauge this by the folks who have to turn around), and a stunning girl vocalist will grab nigh on 100% of the eyes in the room, male and female alike. Some of it is vocal skills, some of it is presentation, and some of it is sheer charisma. (Those vocalists who effectively work the room during a break do this better than those who visit with their boyfriends behind the bandstand.)

(Thus far, I have avoided the temptation to do too many vocals myself. Other than my never to be imitated "buffoon" male vocal for Love Shack (oddly enough, a real crowd pleaser the few times we have been able to perform it), some backgrounds on other tunes, and the occasional turn trading choruses in Mac The Knife when we're shorthanded on the male vocalist side, I keep my big fat mouth shut.)

I've worked with an ex-TV anchorwoman who used to sing with some area bands, and she was the prize of all in this category. In a rowdy New Year's Eve crowd of nigh on six hundred in a huge hotel ballroom, I've seen her bring the noise level down to a hush, and then do her bit with every man jack in the room watching her every gesture, and virtually all of the women (except for those who were glaring at their husbands). Some of it was good looks, some of it was lust, but most of it was an appreciation for how well she did her craft.

I've never seen that, even with the very best of the instrumental soloists with whom I've worked. It's just not the same.
 
Sorry, Jim and Terry: I don't want the job. I *just* mentioned that the closest to soloing I've done has been barbershop quartet -- although I was being groomed to do a solo from Messiah before my last round of health issues.

(Although I might have freaked out if they really decided to have me do it.)

> Finally, and this is a particular sore spot with the musicians, many vocalists think that they are somehow "special" and thus exempt from the many elements that lead up to doing a decent performance.
FWIW, I think this is the case with a lot of soloists. They are, more-or-less by definition, special -- but they're either a member of the group ... or not. This problem had gotten so out of hand in a church choir I used to belong to that order from on-high was given: you want to sing a solo, you're gonna be a choir member. And follow their rules. NO outside soloists. Hey, our choir members can sing just as good as you, but with 1/2 the attitude.

Perhaps I can tell you about the choir directors I've known that can't read music ....
 
Worse than them (if that is possible) are the ones who persist in beating words and phrases rather than time when conducting a mixed ensemble. I've occasionally had to perform under the direction of these, and it's worse than trying to play in an ensemble with a church organist.

We once did Ein Fester Burg Ist Unser Gott with such a beast, and there's nothing like trying to follow someone who beats six beats to a bar in a tune set in 4/4 time. And, the worst thing is that none of them are willing to admit to the problem when confronted with it.

In the end, each time the musicians had to trust to the percussion section to do the right thing, and learned to ignore the conductor except for indications of ritards and similar timing issues. Not good musicianship, but you do what you can.
 
The best singers we've worked with play an instrument and will periodically wander over the mic to sing. They know how read music, understand pitch, and don't care if they only sing two songs in a night.

Terry your experience were captured so some degree I think in the audition scene from the movie "The Fabulous Baker Boys". For me, that was the second best part of the movie. The music was the best part. :cool:
 
Well...

...for me the best part was Michelle Pfieffer stretched out on the piano...

I've worked with groups with "part time" vocalists in the past, as well as done the occasional vocal myself, and I would disagree. The best vocalists are the ones who may be able to read music, and may understand rhythm and all of that ink on the page stuff, but who certainly know how to sing a tune with feeling, sell it to the audience, and come across with enough "sex appeal" (and I mean this in a non-sleazy fashion) to "captivate" the crowd.

I follow a multi-step approach to music:

o Playing:

this is the ability to push the valves or the touchpieces, to manipulate the lips and lungs, and to be able to carry a tune. Virtually everyone who posts on this (and any other musical site) has this ability, and almost every person who styles his or herself as a vocalist can do much the same. Competence and skill levels differ, but it's the floor of the whole trade.

o Performing:

Another step up the scale, and you are now dealing with people who have some degree of Playing above, but with the added difference that they know just how to turn a phrase, how to time their entries (not only on the tunes, but on the stage as well), how to meld well with the instrumentalists (few vocalists do this well), and (in general) how to "kick it up" a level with their efforts. Once again, competence and skill levels differ here, but it too is an important part of the whole package.

o Entertaining:

This one is the hard part. In addition to some degree of the above two, the amount of "entertainer" in a performer makes a BIG difference, whether vocalist or instrumentalist.

Of course, it's hard to be too personable with a horn shoved in your mouth, but there are ways to convey this. Take hats, for example.

Hat mutes are not the norm any longer; some groups get by without them completely. I provide them in spades, and make sure that the horn guys on the back row not only use them, but use them with flare. Flips and turns, unison waves off to the side and in an upward direction, all sorts of stuff.

Why? Well, hoi polloi doesn't know spit about trumpet playing, but the flipping around of hats impresses and captivates them. It's cute, it provides motion where little is normally present and (by many accounts, both written (bios from the big band era) and anecdotal (we get comments all of the time (filtered through my vocalists) about how someone in the audience "loves the hat bits")) that it works.

Other examples include horn line moves (like in the choruses of Jump, Jive & Wail!, where my saxes do the marching band moves on the "jumps") standing up for solos (some groups still don't do this; trumpet solos where this is not done appear to come out of the sound system), "novelty numbers" (band vocals are also great crowd pleasers; we do the gamut from When You're Smilin' to Play That Funky Music, White Boy) and (yes) the occasional trip from in the group to go up front and sing a tune now and then.

Then there's the need to bridge the gaps between tunes. Someone (vocalist, leader, whoever) has to bridge the longer gaps between songs. Some vocalists can do this (third category stuff). other times the leader or someone else has to do it. It's even better when the person doing the bridging can talk intelligently about what's coming up ("We're next going to do an old Cole Porter number, but updated and with a Latin beat...") as well. "Dead air" is athemia to entertainment, and far too many groups ignore this completely.

For a vocalist, it's a bit of a different matter. You can have a vocalist with minimal musical skills and not too much in the way of performance skills, but who knows how to entertain, and you are home free. Rock music is full of examples of just this sort of person, but they abound elsewhere as well. Here, good looks/hot bodies, flashy clothing, eye contact and "drawing in the audience" and other "entertainment skills" are what do the job.

We do costume changes for the female vocalists, with something nice up front, something more "pop" during the dance sets, and finishing off the evening in something more formal. When you do this, it's like you're bringing out a new singer or singers, and people like variety, plain and simple. It works for Celine and Cher, and it will work for your girl singers as well, as long as you can get them to do it.

I've known mediocre singers, with limited range, who are knockout entertainers, and I'd pick them for their "front value" over a spectacular trumpet or sax player any day of the week. Like it or not (and as a musician, I don't like it at all but am realistic enough to understand what it, is), the "front" people are the ones that the audience pays attention to. This is one of the problems of many "jazz" based groups, who end up playing to a limited (and usually non-paying audience) because they don't do enough vocal music.

I've carried (and have seen carried) poor "vocalist musicians" who had the entertainment factor in spades, simply because they are realistically, much more important than a skilled, horn playing devotee of bop or fusion or whatever. We musicians may remember Zoot Sims or Al Hirt or whoever as a soloist, but virtually everyone else identifies more with the vocalists (Billie Holliday, Lena Horne, and (shudder) Doris Day) than with the instrumentalists.

There's a lot more to this, some of it having to do with whistling, of all things, but I've gone on long enough.
 
The best singers we've worked with play an instrument and will periodically wander over the mic to sing. They know how read music, understand pitch, and don't care if they only sing two songs in a night.
There was an article recently that said something about all notation systems/tuning standards (I'm missing both the term and the article; it was recent) approximate the human voice. People researched this? I said, "Duh!"

I think instruments were created to extend the human voice or help call out a particular color of the human voice. Even percussion. Just an opinion, but I think it's possibly the correct one.

Hey, someone else convince me that there's another reason why the sax has a 2.5 octave range :).

I have a great passion for singing, far more than I had with playing. Possibly because it's *much* easier for me. Possibly because I had been told, when I was younger, that I wasn't very good. In any event, the best singer or player, in my opinion is one that lets it all hang out and gives it his best. That's why I mentioned (in another thread) that I'm extremely fond of Mai Yamane on "Gotta Knock a Little Harder" (the bass player does an excellent job, too, BTB -- even though everyone seems to lose the beat in at least one place).

==========

Regarding SOTSDO's comments on "entertainment", I think he's got a great point. One of the reasons why some bands got very popular -- The Greatful Dead, Phish, Cake -- wasn't because they sounded all that fabulous, but they put on a GREAT show and had "decent" tunes (I like Cake because they're witty, too, but I've been told that they put on an exceptional show).

However, I think you'll have a bunch of people disagreeing with you on "but virtually everyone else identifies more with the vocalists (Billie Holliday, Lena Horne, and (shudder) Doris Day) than with the instrumentalists" -- at least, with this group. And possibly with the millions that played some instrument at some point in their life. That's a bit too subjective, I think, to say "virtually everyone". However, I could be the exception to the rule :).

FWIW, I rarely go to any performances of any kind (other than ones that are free or have family members performing) because I can't afford it. That means that the QUALITY or the performance is what I look for, not the entertainment value -- because I'm going to get the CD or MP3.

As an aside to this, one of the very best things I've evar done, musically, is completely avail myself of the fact that the college I went to (about 20 years ago) had free performances from a variety of groups almost every night and I went to almost all of 'em. And this was at a music school (SUNY Fredonia), so the quality was also excellent. That's where I'm virtually positive I heard the Hyperbass flute. That wuz kewl.
 
Simple explanation...

...and that's because you are, instead of a refined gentleman like moi. Iffen you spent more time on bass clarinet and baritone, you would mellow out and have such a sweet disposition that no one would ever call you a horndog again.

Regarding the comments on vocalists and music above, I think that there needs to be another distinction made her. Many (if not most) of us on here prefer one type of music over another. And, that's a very normal reaction - everyone has preferences.

(I like to tell people that I can't abide modern music, and that I prefer the stuff from the Nineties. When they start talking about U2 and B52 and all, I gently correct them and say, "No, the 1790's".)

However, that's us. Perform the music that you like and your audience is going to be very much like you. And, an auditorium full of jazz folks will have one characteristic - they will be cheap.

(One group that I played for would do big band and 1960's jazz chart stuff all night long. The group's fans (and there were quite a few) would grab a table, order one cheap drink a person, and then nurse same all night long. Cheap entertainment for them, but a very low net for the bar and thus not conducive to a big net out of which the band gets paid.

Mind you, there's nothing wrong with that kind of music (or any other kind, for that matter). All music deserves to be heard, and playing all of those great Basie charts (the ones that stretch out to six pages and have some name like Basie (B)) is certainly entertaining to play and for some to listen to. But, that audience and the one that's willing to pay for live music are two different animals.

My group is different. While we play some music that we like (and the vocalist sing a lot that they like), there's never a job where the musicians or the vocalists are happy with the majority of the tunes. However, that's because they are selected for the benefit of the audience, not of members of the band. Remember, the audience (or the venue that draws the audience) are the ones that are paying the bills, and (trite saying ahead) the customer is always right.

Dancing these days means (for over 99% of the population) music in 4/4 time with a beat count running from 100 up to about 160 or so. Few waltzes, even fewer foxtrots, and dancing to Woody Herman or Stan Getz or (yes) even Jacky Gleason arrangements just isn't done any longer.

Once in a while we get a call for a waltz, and I've got about twenty of them to oblige the requester. People also like to hear a swing tune now and then, and again there are plenty in the box to satisfy that demand. But, what keeps the dance floor filled and entertains the ones who want to sit and listen are vocals with that general tempo.

Disco, despite the almost universal loathing that the term generates when mentioned in mixed company, is still alive and well in the live music business. I've never played a gig where there was not a group of women wanting the musical group to play some tunes from the heyday of disco. Some groups that I've played with answered that "We don't play that kind of music", a la the Blues Brothers. I don't make that mistake, and can trot out most of Donna Sumner, Gloria Gaynor, the Weather Girls and others that made the 1970's such a positive time for live music.

None of this stuff is "great tunes" by any stretch of the imagination. But, it is what hoi polloi wants to hear, and (in my world) those who are paying the bills are entitled to get what they want. We can play Charlie Barnett charts on our own time...
 
> (I like to tell people that I can't abide modern music, and that I prefer the stuff from the Nineties. When they start talking about U2 and B52 and all, I gently correct them and say, "No, the 1790's".)

U2 and the B-52's were both formed in 1976, according to Wikipedia, and had most of their hits in the 1980's. 1990's music, I might not know a lot of. 1980's, yup. Love shack, baby.

> And, an auditorium full of jazz folks will have one characteristic - they will be cheap.
I am not cheap. My wife had to take me out to Denny's, at least. You know how much a Grand Slam costs? OK, so it's ONLY $5.99, but still.

FWIW, I feel your pain and I understand the point, but I've also mentioned elsewhere that I've gone out to hear orchestral concerts that were $25 or more per ticket (which I got for free) and the performance was ... sub par. It's probable that the jazz fans you've taken notice of are those that have heard some fairly poor bands and are just there to hang out with friends. Hey, gas is also $4 a gallon.

Now, I have heard some great big-band groups and even small ensembles, both in concert and restaurant/bar-ish settings. Hey, one place even charged me $5 for a Coke (the brown fizzy kind, not the Columbian kind).

I do agree with the comment that "the customer is always right". Hey, they ARE paying you. Give 'em what they want. If you want to make your GROUP happy, have a jam session night. I can virtually guarantee that half the group will be oddly unable to make it, tho.

Question: am I a refined gentleman? I've probably put in more time on bass clarinet than tenor sax and a lot more time on bari than either bass clarinet or tenor sax. Heck, I can sing bari ....

I wanna hear "Disco Duck" on contrabass. That would be worth paying for.
 
We backed up a vocalist last month who brought his own book to the party. Among the twenty or so fragmental arrangements (he did impressions, and there were only one or two tunes that we did the whole thing played through) was a Three Stooges/Rocky bit that ended with the old tag from the Stooge movies, the one on the bass sax that went "Da Da, da dah, dah dump!".

I was tempted to borrow a bass sax, just for those six notes, but the logistics of getting it to the venue mitigated against it. So, I just did it on the baritone.
 
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