How to tell a C-melody from a Tenor

[jbtsax]

A question often asked when shown a photograph of a vintage saxophone is, "Is this a C-melody or a Tenor"? When saxes are the same vintage and make it is often hard to tell. With so many "experts" on this forum, I though this would be the perfect place to ask the question.

 

[Gandalfe]

I've heard knowledgeable folks ask for the length measurement from the receiver opening to the butt end of the instrument. For example, my Conn C-melody is 25 inches and my Selmer tenor sax is 29 inches.

 

[pete]

FWIW, the measurement is probably the best thing, but it's not always best. I still have problems telling them apart in pics. I usually say something like, "See it in person or ask the dealer to put a modern tenor next to it to be sure." However, like you, JBT, I'd like to hear if anyone has a good trick to tell the difference from a photo!

 

[jbtsax]

I had always referred to this picture comparison showing the distance of the bell brace from the end of the bell, but I have had others come up with photographs that are either different or mislabeled. I was sure the "illuminati" on the Woodwind Forum would have the definitive answer. The C-mel is on the left.

 

[pete]

The chromatic F# key is different. That's how you can tell a Bb tenor from a C melody. C melodies are also cleaner because they don't get much use.

Kidding.

The low C key is also kinda different. It's got a longer arm on the C and the tonehole, itself, is in a slightly different place. However, I'm fairly sure that's not the case with all C melodies and it's also really, really subtle.

 

[Helen]

Often you can tell by the shape of the neck. The Conn straight neck is a dead give away... Duh...

When it comes to tenors, let me grab my C mel Handcraft off the wall, and my similar era tenor out of its case. I'll photograph side by side for you. The necks in some brands have a squatter look to them on the C mel models.

Now to totally confuse things, take a look at these 2 horns. The larger one is my Series III Toneking from 1957, while the other is a C-pitched tenor that I didn't buy when I had the chance (idiot probably) that Adolphe Edouard Sax built.

The C pitched tenor is currently getting restored at my tech's shop. Once it's done I will be recording a video with it, and then... Who knows... I might buy it yet... Or it will continue to sit in its case in Vancouver with a non-sax player. Or he'll decide to sell it for way more money than I'm willing to pay...

 

[pete]

An AE Sax C melody isn't something you're likely to come across again anytime soon, too, especially considering it's a non-Selmer one (not saying there are Selmer AE Sax C melodies, just that Selmer-made AE Sax horns pop-up more often). It might be a good investment. Well, unless HP. AE Sax mouthpiece, too?

For me, I'd still say that the necks look way too similar to easily tell the difference, but I can tell the difference in your pics. I'd also say that it varies quite a bit by make/model. I think those Bueschers look closer to each other than the AE Sax and Keilwerth.

 

[Steve]

With some instruments it's hard to tell by a photo unless there's a comparison next to it.

Just like a Bb and A clarinet, especially the vintage ones. The length though, helps resolve the unknowns in the photo.

 

[Helen]

OK, here are my 2 Martin Handcrafts. The C mel on top is [HASHTAG]#48XXX[/HASHTAG], while the Bb tenor is [HASHTAG]#68XXX[/HASHTAG].

Other than the the obvious size difference--the C mel is 21" to the bottom of the body tube (not counting the bell to bow connecting ring), or 24 inches to the bottom of the bow (not counting the bow guard)--the difference that I see is in the neck. The C mel has a bit more of an arch than the tenor.

An interesting side note, and something I had never noticed before, since I have never compared them side to side before, is that the placement of the chromatic F# key is different on the 2 horns.

 

[Helen]

I had always referred to this picture comparison showing the distance of the bell brace from the end of the bell, but I have had others come up with photographs that are either different or mislabeled. I was sure the "illuminati" on the Woodwind Forum would have the definitive answer. The C-mel is on the left.

Well, the distance thingy might work in Bueschers, but not so much in all other brands. For example check out my Martin Handcraft pics. If anything, the tenor is slightly, with the emphasis on slightly, higher in the mounting of the bell to body support brace vs. that on the C mel.

On the Buescher I would again go back to the neck. The C mel has a longer section of straight pipe that seems to tip up towards the MP, compared to that of the tenor.
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BTW, this conversation has had me scouring the Net for pics of Conn and King pics as well. I will now have to write about this for my website... Great....

Seriously though, it is a great topic for conversation. A "How to ID the Differences" article would be very handy. I will have to measure and photograph my straight neck Conn to compare/contrast the size difference between it and the Martin. I'm curious about the differences.

 

[Steve]

Does anyone have a straight neck C-Mel - the alto neck version for comparison to the curved neck C-Mel & tenor ?

 

[Helen]

Does anyone have a straight neck C-Mel - the alto neck version for comparison to the curved neck C-Mel & tenor ?

Yup, I do. That is my actually "playing" C mel. (One those once or twice a year occasions when my C mel comes out to a show with me.)

Would you like me to take a comparison shot between it and my Martin Handcraft C mel wall decor, as well as my Handcraft tenor? I also have a Conn 10M to throw into the mix, but it's a later one with an underslung neck, so not really all that useful for comparison sake.

 

[Steve]

Yup, I do. That is my actually "playing" C mel. (One those once or twice a year occasions when my C mel comes out to a show with me.)

Would you like me to take a comparison shot between it and my Martin Handcraft C mel wall decor, as well as my Handcraft tenor? I also have a Conn 10M to throw into the mix, but it's a later one with an underslung neck, so not really all that useful for comparison sake.

I'm not really interested.
But if people ask about C-Mel's they have to understand there's more than one kind so they don't go running off thinking they have some rare alto that is worth $10,000, instead of just $10.

 

[Helen]

I'm not really interested.
But if people ask about C-Mel's they have to understand there's more than one kind so they don't go running off thinking they have some rare alto that is worth $10,000, instead of just $10.

Well I'm hurt Steve. You mean to tell me my C mel isn't worth 10K? :cry: What will I ever retire on???

In any event, I took a shot of my Conn straight neck c mel, Martin C mel, and my Martin tenor for comparison's sake. It's not the best shot, but I'm having a brain fart, and can't seem to remember the right settings on my camera this am... But it will do the job.

 

[pete]

Does anyone have a straight neck C-Mel - the alto neck version for comparison to the curved neck C-Mel & tenor ?

Although a little outside this topic, I'd actually like the measurements of the neck of the Conn "alto" neck C melody vs the "tenor" neck C melody (length, bore, etc.). I'd like to know the differences in sizes, if there are any.

You mean to tell me my C mel isn't worth 10K?

Here ya go. $12,000 C melody.

 

[Steve]

Although a little outside this topic, I'd actually like the measurements of the neck of the Conn "alto" neck C melody vs the "tenor" neck C melody (length, bore, etc.). I'd like to know the differences in sizes, if there are any.

Here ya go. $12,000 C melody.

I like the ruggedness of the neck octave mechanism and all the rods and keys .. Actually, no I don't. never mind.

 

[Helen]

Although a little outside this topic, I'd actually like the measurements of the neck of the Conn "alto" neck C melody vs the "tenor" neck C melody (length, bore, etc.). I'd like to know the differences in sizes, if there are any.

Here ya go. $12,000 C melody.

I can measure them. I was going to yesterday, but then I discovered that the battery in my digital calipers was dead... Technology.

I like the ruggedness of the neck octave mechanism and all the rods and keys .. Actually, no I don't. never mind.

Yah, nothing about those horns looks rugged. It all looks quite flimsy and likely to bend. The (hinge tubes?) rods and octave key might not get easily damaged, but they look like an improper grip might bend them out of shape... All this for 13K, and I have to learn a new fingering system, AND wait a year for delivery. Really? Steve Goodson's Category 5 is starting to look good for 15K. Just saying...

 

[jbtsax]

Although a little outside this topic, I'd actually like the measurements of the neck of the Conn "alto" neck C melody vs the "tenor" neck C melody (length, bore, etc.). I'd like to know the differences in sizes, if there are any.

Here ya go. $12,000 C melody.

I just read where Jim Schmidt is working with a Chinese company to have them make the bodies for his saxes. He will still make the keys out of stainless steel. If that works out he will move toward having the entire instrument made in China. If that comes to pass, the price would go down dramatically.

 

[pete]

The Schmidt horns have been around for at least 15 years, so I'd assume that the design is mature enough to be farmed out to other manufacturers (i.e. it can be mass produced, rather than everything needing to be hand-fit). It also looks like his comments regarding the horns on his website lean more toward the dimensions of the horn making a significant difference in how the horn plays, rather than saying that the material the horn is made out of making a difference -- other than saying he uses stainless steel because it's stronger and lighter. That also lends itself more toward a third party manufacturing the body. However, I'm not necessarily convinced that it's a "better" design. Hey, I've seen lots of "better" designs from a lot of places. Better design + competitive price is what we need.

In any event, I think the Schmidt horns are incredibly appealing, visually. I am a bit intimidated by some of those little keys, though.

 

[Steve]

Looking at that JS horn reminds me of a tenor I played years ago (at least just looking at the picture).
The one I play tested was such an easy horn to play.

I compared it to a regular tenor as when I first got it I thought the manufacturer sent me an alto. The box was smaller and too light to be a tenor.
But the body tube diameter wasn't as wide as a normal tenor. The toneholes were also smaller.
All in all, the design made it very easy to play.

It was also thin sounding, no depth to the tone, etc. But everything else was great.
I returned it after testing it for a bit. I don't think they made many of them.