Huttl/DABICO

[pete]

Helen, our bass sax player from Canada, asked me about her Huttl alto a long while ago -- you can see my initial response and Helen's horn at http://www.bassic-sax.ca/huttl.html.

Here's my post from yesterday ....

=========

BTB, I did find those pictures of that DABICO sax. It's the same horn as your Saxy the Hutt(l). Well, mostly. Pics: http://thesax.info/dabico. Groovekiller (Randy) knows these horns. Quoting him: "Around 40 years ago, master repair technician Bob Daugherty, Sr. in Dayton, Ohio purchased unfinished saxophones that were made in Holland. Bob completed the assembly and finish and marketed them under the name of his store, Dayton Band Instrument Company. The brand name was DABICO." Please do note that I have ANOTHER directory of DABICO pics and the horn is very obviously a Pierret (can't miss that keyguard assembly).

I've also theorized that the company that produced the Keilwerth-bodied Esquire and the company that made the DABICO I mention above is one and the same. Holland-based, in both instances.

DABICO still exists, too: http://dabicomac.com

AK Huttl History. Hey, they're CANADIAN (as of 1970). Hmmmm. I wonder who has a .ca web address ....

 

[pete]

Helen's response ...

I looked at those pics of the DABICO sax. Wow...Is it ever the same as mine. That's cool to know...Until this minute I had not seen anything that resembled my "DeLuxe" model with the mother of pearl key touches.

About Huttl being Canadian, I do know that at one point...not sure when...they had a factory located in Fredericton, New Brunswick. I friend of mine, who I met when I lived in Fredericton, told me about it after he saw pictures of my Huttl. He didn't know if the saxophones were made there or not. I have tried to do some research on Huttl in Fredericton, but haven't come up with anything useful. I think a bit more poking around is in order. There must be some record somewhere of when the company was located there, and what they produced.

 

[pete]

Gandalfe's response ...

I looked at those pics of the DABICO sax. Wow...Is it ever the same as mine. That's cool to know...Until this minute I had not seen anything that resembled my "DeLuxe" model with the mother of pearl key touches.

Wow, you've added some content and pictures since I last visited your site. You might want to add the Yahoo group, the Bass Coop and Groove Killer's MySpace site to your link ref page. Oh, and maybe a link to this forum.

 

[pete]

My response ...

Gandalfe's trying to get some more traffic, I see. I have to point this out, of course, because he's way too subtle for most people .

Helen, did you check out that link to the horn-u-copia.net website? If it's true that Huttl is more known for brasswinds, it may be beneficial to start checking out places like vintagecornets.com, etc.

But, as I said, I don't think that Huttl, necessarily made these horns. If Groovekiller's right, they're from Holland and I don't see any suggestion that Huttl is a Holland-based company.

G'head and drop Groove a PM and ask for his further input. He's the one that first sent me DABICO sax pics -- I just don't remember where I've got those.

BTB, when I'm sufficiently motivated, I'll probably split off this DABICO discussion into another thread.

We now return you to your thread, already in progress .

 

[Groovekiller]

I know all about DABICO. I've been around them all my life.

When I was a kid, the best repairman in Dayton, Ohio was Bob Daugherty, owner of Dayton Band Instrument Company. He had a band instrument shop in the Victory Theatre in downtown Dayton. He had red hair, parted down the middle, 1920s style, and a waxed handlebar moustache.

His "junk pile" was enormous, and contained the entire history of wind instruments. He is the reason I got interested in instrument repair.
My father bought a Conn mezzo-soprano from Bob. I still have it. The overhaul was superb.

Dabico instruments were built by Bob from parts made in Holland (You are absolutely correct, Pete). Dabico stands for DAyton Band Instrument COmpany.

Bob Daugherty's son, Bob Jr., still runs the store in a different location, and he still does good repairs.

 

[Helen]

Gandalfe's response ...

I looked at those pics of the DABICO sax. Wow...Is it ever the same as mine. That's cool to know...Until this minute I had not seen anything that resembled my "DeLuxe" model with the mother of pearl key touches.

Wow, you've added some content and pictures since I last visited your site. You might want to add the Yahoo group, the Bass Coop and Groove Killer's MySpace site to your link ref page. Oh, and maybe a link to this forum.

My website hasn't been updated in quite a while...Since I got slammed with this weird neurological condition in Nov. '06 that I'm still fighting my way back from...

I have managed to put together a site map however, and I need to get enough energy up to go over the changes that I want with my web designer. There will be quite a few updates coming. I've been planning what to do/add. It just takes way more energy than I currently have however.

BTB, the bass sax co-op has been a link on my site forever. But there are some links that need to be removed, and some new ones added. I will definitely add this forum.

 

[Ed]

I'm pretty sure I've seen a DABICO bari that was a JK. I'm thinking it was a late 1960's or very early 1970's horn.

Every once in a while I will see something out there and now I know a lot more about them. Thanks!

 

[pete]

I'm pretty sure I've seen a DABICO bari that was a JK. I'm thinking it was a late 1960's or very early 1970's horn.

Every once in a while I will see something out there and now I know a lot more about them. Thanks!

Well, if I'm right and the company that made the Esquire horns is the same company that also made Huttls, you've got some JK bodies in there.

I'll try to get that Pierret-made Huttl online over the next couple days.

 

[Helen]

I received an email from a man in Germany yesterday. He came across my website, and found the pictures of my Huttl. He says that the horn was made by a company in Germany called Hammerschmidt. Have you heard of this manufacturer before Pete?

Here's an exerpt from the email I received:

Hallo Helen

I stumbled upon your website a couple of days ago and noticed your strange alto. Having taken a look around the close ups I was amazed to discover what it is that you have bought. To start off with, it is not a H?ttl built saxophone (I'm not even sure they ever built any) it is a stencil.

H?ttl had a reputation for being a top music firm and delivered to lots of orchestras and schools, so they ordered instruments from various well-known makers and sold them on with their own logo usually engraved on the bell and made a little extra profit-its a process that happened in America all the time as well apparently. Your instrument was built by the Hammerschmidt family firm in Burgau Germany and judging by all the extras on it, was made about the end of 1957. Hammerschmidt saxophones are very rare these days and especially the top of the range models like yours.

If you are wondering how I know all this, its because I was given a Hammerschmidt tenor some time ago and have had it completely restored (finished last week!!!!!!!) and mine has all the same keys and mother of pearl inlays, identical octave key system and thumb rest, plus the e-flat trill "round the corner" is identical. The left hand little finger chaos is exactly the same shape-with mother of pearl everywhere and so is the right hand lttle finger block. Also I can see that the complete mechanism is a photo copy of my tenor. All yours is missing is the microtuner on the neck.

My tenor has also got "angels-wings" over the large bell keys. These are transparent plastic contraptions that were all the rage around that time and protect the clappers....

So what do you make of this Pete?

He has offered to send me some photos of his tenor, so I did ask him to do that. I think it will be interesting to see his horn.

 

[pete]

Hey, my information on the DABICO is from Randy: blame him .

There is a Hammerschmidt on eBay right now. It does look pretty simular to your Huttl (I think the easiest points of comparison are the keyguards and the octave key). However, I say, "I only see engraving that says Genton, not Hammerschmidt." I'd want to know how the person knows it's a Hammerschmidt.

Why do I want to break out into song?

World Wide Sax says that all the Hammerschmidt SOPRANOS they've seen have been Keilwerth stencils. I've also gotta say when I hear, "Angels wings around the bell keys", I'm thinking "Keilwerth New King or Tone King".

 

[Helen]

I received the pictures from Dave in Germany of his sax. I'm going to ask him for permission to add them to my site, and see if he would be willing to write up a history of the Hammerschmidt co's saxophones.

Here an exerpt of his email:

Hi Helen

As promised, here are a few photos of my Hammerschmidt (they named them
Klingsor) and I hope you can see enough details to make an identification...

When I came home from work and saw the sax I was completely knocked out by it and became very interesed in its history because I could see it was very well made but the brand meant nothing to me at all.

Even here in Germany it took a while to find anything out about it but I have since uncovered most of the firm's history - their instruments are sought after by collectors and are really quite rare.

So you can imagine my surprise when I bumped into your alto so to speak, because I have never seen one with so many extras on it - I doubt if there are more than five or six like it anywhere and probably not in so good a condition as yours (plus the fact that you have H?ttl engraved on the bell!).

The firm still exsits, producing only clarianets, but when I gave them the tenor's serial number they were able to tell me the production year...

 

[pete]

I RSVP'd to your e-mail, Helen.

* Helen's alto and Dave's tenor look pretty similar, and both look similar to the Genton and the horn I posted, above. I think Dave's tenor is possibly the newest -- it's also VERY pretty. Interesting plastic/lucite keyguard that's very different from the Keilwerth or Grafton (for that matter).
* I read up on FA Hammerschmidt and I know they only did post-WWII production, but the design is definitely pre-WWII; early 1940's. It even has a genuine Eb vent and altissimo D# trill.
* I commented that the octave key mechanism is interesting: it has the wishbone design of the early Dolnets.

But, I can safely say that there sounds like there's too much evidence that points to FA Hammerschmidt as the producer of these horns rather than any other source.

Now, there ARE a bunch of similarities to the early Keilwerth horns and that Holland-made Esquire, so I'll grant Groovekiller that, but, I think the Holland-made DABICO is a different horn: remember, I do have pics of that Pierret that was stenciled DABICO, so there's precedent that DABICO used different suppliers.

I might also look at the Max Keilwerth horns and see if I can compare: they're actually fairly similar to the Hammerschmidts. Possibly more so than the Julius Keilwerth horns.

I'll try to follow up with pics in awhile. I wish I had more hours in the day ....

 

[pete]

Here's a DABICO from Holland.

Yes, it may be a Keilwerth body, but it's not a Keilwerth .

 

[Helen]

I received a couple of emails today from the repair tech in Germany who overhauled the tenor Huttl that belonged to Dave. Dave was the fellow from Germany who emailed me a few weeks ago told me that he had information about the Huttl brand of saxophones. Excerpts of Dave's emails are quoted earlier in this thread.

The tech's name is Uwe. Apparently Uwe wrote an article about the Karl Hammerschmidt/Burgau (West German) company for the German music magazine SONIC (http://www.sonic.de). Uwe told me that Hammerschmidt (whose saxophones were sold under the lable of "Klingsor") only made alto and tenor saxophones, and thus only alto and tenor Huttls. The Klingsor sopranos and baris were made by J. Keilwerth as stencils for Hammerschmidt, so by extension, I am assuming that the Huttl sopranos and baris would have been made by Keilwerth as well. Based on what I've read, this would appear to be the case.

Uwe goes on to say that Hammerschmidt also made horns for England and Japan named "La Fleur" and La Fleur Deluxe".

The Hammerschmidt saxophones were built between 1952 & 1982 and numbered approximately 16,000.

 

[pete]

The only thing I can say, quickly, I seem to remember the La Fleur name in conjunction with Keilwerth and/or Kohlert, too -- I think perhaps as a Keilwerth stencil for Canada, actually. I'll have to check my pictures.

EDIT: I seem to be partially right. There is a Boosey & Hawkes horn with that name that was distributed primarily in the UK and Canada. B&H says that they're Amatis or Kohlerts, depending on the serial number. One gentleman confirmed that his horn looked exactly like the Kohlert Bixley.

However, some are stamped "GDR" ("German Democratic Republic"), "Germany" or "Made in Czechoslovakia", according to my brief research.

Anyhow, this horn is an obvious Amati Classic Super stencil. I thought I had pictures of the Kohlert one, but I can't find it.

JR Lafleur was, according to Steve Sklar, a subsidiary of Boosey & Hawkes and an importer in the UK.

 

[Helen]

Huttl Web Pages Updated

The Huttl pages of my website are now updated. I've included all the information from both Dave and Uwe, as well as the photos of Dave's Klingsor...It's a very pretty horn.

All of this has inspired me to really get mine restored. It needs an overhaul desperately. Too bad it's not a tenor. :-( I've got so many altos, and I'm so not an alto player.

 

[Connical]

Here's an exerpt from the email I received:...

My tenor has also got "angels-wings" over the large bell keys. These are transparent plastic contraptions that were all the rage around that time and protect the clappers....

This statement got me to wondering if they were other companies other than Keilwerth and Hammerschmidt/Huttl that produced plastic keyguards.

If they were all the rage back then, did anyone else follow suit that we havn't heard about yet ? Did you ask him if he knew of any other companies doing similar plastic contraptions ?

Very interesting stuff, you guys ! Thanks for sharing it !

 

[pete]

This statement got me to wondering if they were other companies other than Keilwerth and Hammerschmidt/Huttl that produced plastic keyguards.

The Grafton Acrylic Alto. I'm wondering if the New King or Grafton was first: the guards are almost identical.

The Connstellation 28M, too. I can't think of any others.

Helen, can you please turn off the flashing links? Additionally, you may wish to download the pics from that eBay ad: they're only archived for about a month. The ad numbers are also sometimes recycled.

 

[Helen]

Sorry Pete, I'm a bit dense at the moment. What flashing links? Where?

The eBay page is actually saved to my site.

 

[pete]

Sorry Pete, I'm a bit dense at the moment. What flashing links? Where?

The ones that were blinking, like "Hammerschmidt company".

Thank you. I had a pretty bad headache and that was making my head spin.