I got another Patricola

[stevethemusicman]

To have the wood continue exactly as the original block is only possible if the tenons are made seperately and then glued to the joint. If the tenons are one piece with the joints, which is what almost all makers do, there is a piece missing and it is not possible that the wood is the exact continuation. But it's possible that even with the piece missing it is close enough to look almost exactly the same, depending on the texture of the area they cut.

I guess my eyes are a bit biased. You are right. On a closer examination although it looks like the same piece of wood the grain will not match up the way I thought it was. I guess it was wishful thinking on my part but they still took the time to try to match it and they did a pretty good job.

Steve

 

[SOTSDO]

As I said, they can get it close, but there's no way to do it without using inserted tenons, which would create loads of problems in and of themselves.

Done right, an inserted tenon can work just fine. But, screwing around with them at the end of the lower joint of a soprano clarinet is just asking for trouble.

Another factor here is cost. Long pieces of defect free wood are harder to come by these days, even in conventional lumber. The grenadilla used in clarinets is becoming harder and harder to get as all of the good trees are taken - a clarinet length piece is going to be as wanted for a contra-alto joint as it is for a clarinet.

Patricola is a low production firm, and they may be willing to take the time (and bill you, the purchaser for same) to match things up as neatly as possible. With Selmer or Buffet, it's going to be "Grab the next billet of wood that fits the spec and into the lathe it goes".

 

[Franklin Liao]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the top and bottom joint made of different billets, never mind that of the barrels and the bells. Whether or not if the billets would come from the same tree would in itself be questionable.

It would incur additional steps in manufacturing if you can't simply form the tenon while cutting the joint from the CNC milling machine. With the mass manufacturers such as Buffet, it would be of great inconvenience to execute gluing of a separate tenon.

The other approach that I can think of is to copy Rossi, as in you have one whole unibody like how Effers typically are. This would require one to have a great rod in quality. I imagine the bridge mechanism would not be needed if this is done... in some sense, it would make sense for the full Boehms to be made this way so that the articulated G# key doesn't require drilling a hole through the tenon...

 

[pete]

A lot of clarinets produced in the 19th century and the first part of the 20th century were four-piece: the upper and lower joints were one piece and I think I've seen a few where the barrel, upper and lower joints were one piece.

Personally, I'm a bit unsure why this kind of manufacture was dropped. One would think that it's easier to manufacture. Might be because repairs would be a bit more difficult.

 

[SOTSDO]

Folks in the Olde Country spent a few centuries using up most of the wood, particularly in England. As the supply dwindles, long, straight, clear grained pieces become more rare, as it is a natural tendency of humankind to use up the "low hanging fruit".

Once the good pieces are used up, it takes some time for the supply to even come close to replacing what has been used. This, in turn, led to breaking up the horns into the joints that we have become accustomed to seeing in horns made post circa 1800.

While the modern clarinet has moved to "blackwood" over the past two centuries or so, the same sort of process has occurred with the African-sourced grenadilla and its sisters. I have been told that this process was responsible for the higher rate of price increase of bass clarinets, as the one foot plus pieces essential to making a wooden bass clarinet have become increasingly rare.

Unless there is some initiative by the instrument manufacturers to increase the grenadilla supply now (and no one else is going to stand up and make an effort here), wooden clarinets are going to be a thing of the past.

 

[pete]

There have been a few studies about oiling clarinets. We discussed them in another thread.

Are they serious studies, comparing many clarinet in same conditions, some oiled and some not? Do you have links?

Well, one of the WF topics we discussed this in was http://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2817 and there are links. There's also http://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/...ironmental-effects-and-organic-bore-oil.20631, which has more links and links to diagrams.

I'm not sure I got that. Their oil prevents rust better? On a wooden horn?

Maybe I used the wrong word? Not sure in English. I don't mean antyhing about the clarient, but the oil itself.

Ah! Yes. I'd say something along the lines of your clarification: "If you leave something like e.g. olive oil out, or you can see that sometimes near the bottle, it can become a bit of a sticky goo." We American folk tend to equate oxidation with rust (which isn't necessarily correct). What you're talking about is the oil itself breaking down. I was thinking about some scenario where the oil breaks down the clarinet into a nice mush!

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[clarnibass]

Done right, an inserted tenon can work just fine. But, screwing around with them at the end of the lower joint of a soprano clarinet is just asking for trouble.

Yes, they can work very good. Actually, the tenon is the realtively weak area of the body and a (properly) glued tenon, preferably reinforced, might actually be a lot stronger than one piece. Though IMO not really worth since the one piece is not a problem and rarely break (at least I almost never see broken ones, including from schools, though I know in some areas people see more of them).

I have been told that this process was responsible for the higher rate of price increase of bass clarinets, as the one foot plus pieces essential to making a wooden bass clarinet have become increasingly rare.

I guess that is possible. In the case of low C bass clarinets even much more than that, about 65cm long for the lower joint. I think Selmer Paris is still making them from one piece, but Buffet now uses two pieces for the lower joint.

But do you know how much of the cost is the wood itself? I think it's very little of the total cost to make a good bass clarinet. Even if they got the wood for free I don't think the price would be that much lower.

I'm a bit unsure why this kind of manufacture was dropped. One would think that it's easier to manufacture. Might be because repairs would be a bit more difficult.

A lot of problems with that. Like you said, repairs are more difficult, not only to do but also to sometimes to find the problem. Not only for a repairer but for the factory when building it (assuming they check).

A major problem, especially without a barrel, is intonation. Many players use barrels in different lengths, or open and close them, depending on tuning. I remember a recording I did in a place almost like a sauna and needed to play 440. I used my longer barrel and needed to open by about 4mm, plus open at the middle. If I had all one piece it would simply be impossible to play in tune in those conditions.

I think a one piece would actually be harder to make. Although no need for accurate tenons, corking, I think all this is done pretty easily, at least by the big companies, on a CNC lathe and assembly line style probably. I remember one person mentioning he went on a tour at an American wood manufacturer's factory. They happened to be making one piece (plastic) bass clarinets at the time. They were drilling tone holes with the body mounted on both ends, it flexed so much and they didn't do anything about it!

 

[stevethemusicman]

Update on my Patricola

Hi All,

It's been quite a few weeks since I recieved my Patricola and I must say that I still love it. As someone in this thread said the throat Bb leaves a little to be desired but other than that I am loving the instrument.

Let me know if there are any questions about the Axe.

Steve

 

[Steve]

Hi All,

It's been quite a few weeks since I recieved my Patricola and I must say that I still love it. As someone in this thread said the throat Bb leaves a little to be desired but other than that I am loving the instrument.

Let me know if there are any questions about the Axe.

Steve

p i c t u r e s . . . . . please .... we all love pictures

 

[SOTSDO]

A paradox

As of late, I've been spending some time on my Amati Oehler system horn, doing some minor tweaks to the keywork to make it less "bumped by my fat fingers" prone. When doing so, I also bothered to play some long tones whilst sitting on the couch, bored to death and thinking about what I could be doing that would be either more productive or more fun.

I learned two things when doing this:

• A simple bending of the lower RH "sliver key" (which on an Oehler horn is more like a very ripe eggplant) upward removes a major squeak production source. When contorting to play a C# with the "original" C# key, the long clapper on the outside of the lower joint complex of keys for the LH little finger, just enough of a twisting motion is imparted to the horn to slightly alter the angle at which the RH ring finger reaches the keywork. This results in rubbing on the eggplant key, opening it a smidge, and venting a squeak.

Long term solutions would be to set the spring on the key to be a bit firmer, or to grind down the key. That last one is pretty drastic, but ultimately the best of the bunch.

What puzzles me most is why the key is so fat to begin with.

• More alarming was that the "pinch" fingering for the throat Bb is (without a doubt or question) the purest such note on any clarinet that I have played to date. No resonance fingerings are needed - it sounds perfect just as it is, right out of the box.

I could not believe that this is true, but I pulled out every soprano clarinet that I have (ten, counting the Edgeware and the metal Selmer, the C and the two As. None of them could compare to the Amati.

Now, if only the rest of the horn was up to the same standards...

 

[Steve]

What puzzles me most is why the key is so fat to begin with.

without going into the evolution of the clarinet keywork .. just blame the evolution (or lack thereof) of the oboe keywork instead.

 

[stevethemusicman]

Pictures of My Patricola are available

Hi All,

Just got a bunch of pictures up. Take a look at

http://jingledoctor.com/clairnet (NOTE WRONG SPELLING OF CLARINET. THIS WAS PURE BRAIN DEAD FOR ME BUT I'M Not Changing it yet)

Click on one and then you can scroll to about 71 of them. It looks OK under FireFox but a little weird under IE. I'm trying to fix it.

Steve

 

[Steve]

that is one pretty hairnet .. i mean clairnet .. i mean clarinet

Do you have any pinky interference issues with the LH pinky Eb spatula lever in relation to the C# spatula ? The Eb seems to cover up the C# pretty well in the pictures.

 

[stevethemusicman]

that is one pretty hairnet .. i mean clairnet .. i mean clarinet

Do you have any pinky interference issues with the LH pinky Eb spatula lever in relation to the C# spatula ? The Eb seems to cover up the C# pretty well in the pictures.

When I first got it yes. But now it's not in the way at all. My only problem is convincing myself to use it . The action is very tight. More tight than my first brand new Buffet many moons ago. I hope it doesn't loosen up too much.

Steve

 

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Just got a bunch of pictures up. Take a look at

http://jingledoctor.com/clairnet (NOTE WRONG SPELLING OF CLARINET. THIS WAS PURE BRAIN DEAD FOR ME BUT I'M Not Changing it yet)

Click on one and then you can scroll to about 71 of them. It looks OK under FireFox but a little weird under IE. I'm trying to fix it.

Steve

You can view all thumbnails and scroll through the pages with the following URL

http://www.jingledoctor.com/clairnet/thumbnails.php?album=1&theme=classic

This was my first attempt of using Coopermine and I am finding out new things every day.

Steve

 

[Franklin Liao]

I have basically arranged for a temporary swap of my CSGH for a Rosewood CL2. This instrument of 5-6 years old does have a few things that I really like about!

The weight of the instrument is definitely not as pronounced as my RS Symphonie nor that of the CSGH. What Clarinibass has commented about regarding the stuffiness of the throat is something that I've experienced, but it wasn't terribly off-putting or anything. The instrument is not nearly as 'reserved' as what I've felt out of the Backun acoustics, and it is lyrical and a real blast to me to be honest.

I feel that CSG will blend better with the sea of R-13s however. The keywork design isn't as friendly as the Marigaux and the crow's foot is one of those things that I feel uninspiring. There's adjusters though, although not SCREWS AHOY like they are over the Symphonie. The Eb lever is something that I think will need more than 1 day to start 'realizing' of its convenience... for now, my left pinky finds itself lost when landing itself comparing to that of CSGH/Symphonie.

I like this way more than the 2008-2010 R13s or the Selmer Arthea clarinet. It's tough for me to decide between this or the CSGH/Backun Symphonie.

PS: I would not trade the Marigaux for almost anything. At this point, it might take a Stephen Fox for me to think otherwise.

 

[stevethemusicman]

Based on the age of the CL2, you might not have the new model that is called the CL2 Virtuoso. According to Angelo Patricola there are a lot of differences in the instrument including the bore (I believe mainly of the barrels).

I now have been using my Patricola for quite a few months. I love it more and more as I play it. Youre right in that the throat tones are not that bad. One thing that you have to be careful about is your selection of a reed/mouthpiece combination. The Patricola is not as forgiving as a Buffet if you're using a reed that is a little softer than your normal strength. But when you have a harder reed than usual the sound stands out more than a buffet.

Steve

I have basically arranged for a temporary swap of my CSGH for a Rosewood CL2. This instrument of 5-6 years old does have a few things that I really like about!

The weight of the instrument is definitely not as pronounced as my RS Symphonie nor that of the CSGH. What Clarinibass has commented about regarding the stuffiness of the throat is something that I've experienced, but it wasn't terribly off-putting or anything. The instrument is not nearly as 'reserved' as what I've felt out of the Backun acoustics, and it is lyrical and a real blast to me to be honest.

I feel that CSG will blend better with the sea of R-13s however. The keywork design isn't as friendly as the Marigaux and the crow's foot is one of those things that I feel uninspiring. There's adjusters though, although not SCREWS AHOY like they are over the Symphonie. The Eb lever is something that I think will need more than 1 day to start 'realizing' of its convenience... for now, my left pinky finds itself lost when landing itself comparing to that of CSGH/Symphonie.

I like this way more than the 2008-2010 R13s or the Selmer Arthea clarinet. It's tough for me to decide between this or the CSGH/Backun Symphonie.

PS: I would not trade the Marigaux for almost anything. At this point, it might take a Stephen Fox for me to think otherwise.

 

[Franklin Liao]

You are right Steve, this particular CL2 is not the new one. It doesn't use the ringless barrel and all.. Currently using the setup of 5CM+ 2.5 strength Forestone. I have to say that the left pinky is still tripping me over a bit (then again it's not as if the rest of the instrument doesn't leave my hands in knots normally). I will see what using strength 3 will do.

 

[stevethemusicman]

The pinky

Trust me. The pinky soon get's out of your way. I admit that I have not used the extra key a lot. Only for slow passages when not sight reading.

It is nice to know it is there though.

Steve

You are right Steve, this particular CL2 is not the new one. It doesn't use the ringless barrel and all.. Currently using the setup of 5CM+ 2.5 strength Forestone. I have to say that the left pinky is still tripping me over a bit (then again it's not as if the rest of the instrument doesn't leave my hands in knots normally). I will see what using strength 3 will do.