Longevity of unlacquered saxophones

bpimentel

bpimentel

Broadway Doubler List Owner
Distinguished Member
It seems that a number of saxophone makers are currently offering saxophones in unlacquered brass. What kind of effect does this have on a horn's longevity? Are there maintenance issues or other practical considerations (other than appearance and purported effect on sound)?
 
"The bare brass of the unlacquered saxophone will react to the atmosphere and will tarnish over time. The original look can be restored by taking the sax completely apart and polishing the body and keys with a polishing cloth or with a polish such as Brasso.

This is very labor intensive and quite expensive if you have a shop do it for you. For this reason most players who choose unlacquered saxes accept the "patina" that occurs naturally over time and don't try to reverse the process." ~ JBT (He wrote this years ago.)
 
Right. But is there any effect other than aesthetic? Does the tarnish/patina have the potential to affect pads (leaks? stickiness?) or anything else? Long-term, is there heightened risk of corrosion or other damage to the instrument?

I guess the flip side of the question is, does lacquer/plating have any function related to protecting the instrument's structural/functional integrity?
 
Brett, I have a 1950 King Zephyr that is about 95% naturally delacquered. The only lacquer remaining can be found on a few of the keys that do not come in contact the hands through normal handling. I've had this Zeph for almost 2 years now since I bought it from Sarge at World Wide Sax.

In the time I've had it, it has been my primary tenor. I use it regularly in all my blues work with Deception, and all the time when teaching. Taking the finish out of the equation for a minute, I have noticed no difference in the horn compared to any of my others with lacquer or plating, when it comes to pads and their longevity/stickiness or anything like that. As a matter of fact I've noticed no difference in the Zeph compared to any of my other tenors, other than in the tone (let's not even try to explain that, for fear of getting into the finish/tone debate ;-) ) and key action (which was especially set up for for me by Sarge.)

Based on my experience with this delacquered tenor, I would say that it from a mechanical perspective, lacquer or not makes no difference. As far as caring for them goes, Bear's article is the best I've come across. He lumps bare brass horns together with plated horns with regards to how to care for them.
 
I've had two bare brass horns that were originally manufactured as bare brass: both were Conn New Wonders. While I disliked both intensely, there was no additional charge when I had the tenor overhauled. Both had a pretty good patina goin'.

I think what you're trying to get at is "tarnish" vs. "corroded." I think a horn that's corroded might have rough spots on the toneholes.

Quoting Wikipedia: "Tarnish is a surface phenomenon, that is self-limiting unlike rust." You can also check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina.
 
bpimentel said:
It seems that a number of saxophone makers are currently offering saxophones in unlacquered brass. What kind of effect does this have on a horn's longevity?
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Even if they are neglected over time

barebrass.jpg


IMG_3193.jpg


They can still be put right

IMG_7467.jpg


And as this TT is not far off 90 years old, and has seen some abuse in its time, I really wouldn't worry about the longevity of a bare brass instrument

Chris
 
Really the only part of the tone hole that is in contact with the pad is likely bare brass. Most tone holes have been filed or leveled. I have one horn that is bare brass. No more issues with it than the ones that are lacquered or plated.
 
They quit lacquering horns in Florida, and after about 15 years of not having my horn re-lacquered, this is what happened to my Couf Superba II:

LR_05Couf.jpg



And this:

LR_04Couf.jpg



And this:

LR_10Couf.jpg


Some may call it patina, I call it ugly.

Notes
 
Yeah, I don't get it. Was this instrument not played for a long time. It would seem you could see this coming from a long way out if you were playing the instrument on a regular basis like Bret does. That is extreme patina that I would think could have been "managed". I could be wrong. YMMV.
 
The Couf does seem extreme. I live in the Midwest so ocean breezes rarely touch my horns. Haven't seen or heard of these issues from guys in L.A. or anybody I know in the northwest.
 
NN has posted those pics at least a half-dozen times :).

I think the point is that if a bare brass instrument isn't ... neglected and stored improperly for the area's climate ... it's not that much of a problem. Hey, I can make a horn look as bad as NN's, provided I can soak a horn in salt water for awhile and introduce various acids on a regular basis.

The other thing is that NN's horn was originally lacquered. It just goes to show that if you have a lacquered horn and the lacquer gets some wear/scratches, your horn may get more than just aesthetic damage.

FWIW, I don't like bare-brass horns, especially those that have been artificially "aged." If I have the opportunity to buy another new horn and have the option, I'll get plated.

Oh. Remember that there are still a bunch of A. Sax instruments that are out there and most of those are bare brass.
 
About a year ago I picked up an early bare brass alto, by Ig. Meindl Jun. Graslitz. Tentatively dated to around 1900, possibly earlier.

although it's not pretty, there's no significant corrosion. Just the dull browny-yellow colour that old unpolished brass gets.

It's with the instrument maker at the moment for a new neck, otherwise I'd post a pic or two.

I don't see bare brass as a problem, unless there are extreme climatic conditions and poor storage. There's more brass deterioration on the inside of my tenor than on the outside of the Meindl. And the inside of teh body is (never?) not lacquered.
 
The horn was played in South Florida and sometimes near the salt water :-( - but it's how I make my living.

When the patina started I tried polishing it, but it was a losing battle. I was spending more time polishing than practicing and it still grew faster than I could keep up with it.

So I got another sax and used this only for outdoor gigs, quit polishing it, and you can see the result.

I would never-ever purchase a bare brass horn. But I live and gig in South Florida near the Atlantic Ocean. There is salt in the air here and salt plus copper equals green.

My newest horn is a MacSax Classic covered with 2 coats of silver colored nickel.

I sold the Couf and use my gold plated Grassi as my outdoor horn now. The gold plating is coming off in places, and in frustration I even started to use Brasso on the spots, but I can see it as a losing battle.

Notes ♫
 
As I've stated before, my Yamaha baritone quickly changed hues (two different ones; the posts and some rods turned one shade, the body another) when exposed to the brackish air (which is also laced with some chemicals) of the Houston Ship Channel. This happened almost instantly, both to my horn and to the second tenor's (also a Yamaha), and only slowly returned to "normal" once we were gone from the environment.

In both cases, the change was cosmetic only, but it was a definite change.
 
Notes_Norton said:
The horn was played in South Florida and sometimes near the salt water :-( - but it's how I make my living.

When the patina started I tried polishing it, but it was a losing battle. I was spending more time polishing than practicing and it still grew faster than I could keep up with it.

So I got another sax and used this only for outdoor gigs, quit polishing it, and you can see the result.

I would never-ever purchase a bare brass horn. But I live and gig in South Florida near the Atlantic Ocean. There is salt in the air here and salt plus copper equals green.

My newest horn is a MacSax Classic covered with 2 coats of silver colored nickel.

I sold the Couf and use my gold plated Grassi as my outdoor horn now. The gold plating is coming off in places, and in frustration I even started to use Brasso on the spots, but I can see it as a losing battle.

Notes ♫
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i remember when you got your MacSax and the Grassis. you had a thread about them on SOTW.

how is the double nickel macsax holding up ?
 
pete said:
NN has posted those pics at least a half-dozen times :).<...snip...>
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And I will probably continue to do so whenever the subject comes up.

I do this to give a prospective bare brass buyer one possible outcome of his/her purchase.

If I was considering a bare brass sax, I would want someone to post their negative experiences as much as those who have had positive experiences with what can happen to unlacquered brass in different environments.

Here in Florida near the ocean, it's humid, and there is some salt in the air. All unprotected metals that are prone to oxidation and that are outdoors will corrode more quickly than they would in a different environment. But the fact remains, they will all eventually oxidize.

My silver plated King alto has held up fairly well. The silver just gets black when it needs to be polished.

So far - so good on my nickel plated MacSax, but I've only had it a year now.

Notes
 
Thanks for all the replies so far. The takeaway for me at this point is more or less what I expected: that in most situations, lacquered or unlacquered is probably a non-issue, even long-term. Notes's experience, however, is the kind of rare(?) case that I was curious about, and seems worth serious consideration for those who live in seaside locales.
 
Ya know, it'd be interesting if we had some comments from clarinbass, as he lives near one of the saltiest seas around: the Dead Sea.

You could also talk to Cannonball. They've got that "Brute" finish on their horns and they're in Salt Lake City. However, I think the argument might be over a "patina'd" horn and a bare brass horn. The stuff I read on Wikipedia seems to suggest that if it's "patina'd" -- generally with vinegar or similar -- corrosion is prevented and it's not going to look any worse.
 
I too would be interested in the experiences of others who live in salty, windy climates.

Those nice ocean breezes sure make coastal S.Fla a comfortable place to live, but everything has it's price, doesn't it?

Notes ♫
 
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