Neck/Mouthpiece

pete

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
Yes, I've been hanging out in other sections of the forum and learning stuff. But I find it hard to word this question.

A large percentage of flute players, for instance, seem to favor different headjoints. A headjoint is the equivalent of the mouthpiece and neck on a sax. Now, considering that custom saxophone necks are primarily designed for professional-line horns, I'm not going to address that much (but you can feel free to).

So, how important is that mouthpiece? If I'm Joe Decent Sax Player and have, oh, $1500, should I go out and buy the best horn I can get for the cash and deal with my POS $5 Bundy II plastic mouthpiece or buy an OK student horn and get a really good mouthpiece?

How much difference can a really good mouthpiece make and can anyone justify the $1000+ mouthpieces I've seen out there?

(I expect, of course, responses from Mr. "I have 105 mouthpieces" Svoboda. :))
 
I don't think you have to spend a lot of money on a mouthpiece. I think it's more important to develop your chops and learn how to play the horn.

I've told this story before but it bears repeating.

When I was about 10 years old my grandfather and grand mother visited us. I was probably in sixth grade so I could have been 11. My grandfather played saxophone professionally so my brother and I put on a little "concert". I've never been so nervous in all of my life. Everyone was polite and complimentary of our playing and my grandfather told my grandmother that when he died he wanted me to have his horns. He then asked me if he could play something on my horn (Bundy II alto with the original Bundy II mouthpiece) and proceeded to ask me how I could play such a soft reed. In spite of the reed he managed to create a more full sound than I knew the horn could possibly produce. He got done playing and handed me back the horn and I just stared at it for a few moments. At that moment I realized the importance of blowing.

Great players can sound great on almost any sort of equipment. They just sound even better on what they like. I've played with a number of guys who had less than stellar equipment who could flat out play. I've learned to not judge a player by their equipment and to wait until they play.
 
So, can we close up shop and hang out a sign that says, "The equipment doesn't matter. Get something and get lessons?"

:p

I do hold a few truisms, that I've mentioned elsewhere:

* The horn doesn't matter, as long as it has decent build quality and is in good condition. In other words, get a Yamaha 23. It's good enough. You want a bit better keywork? OK, get a 275.
* The mouthpiece doesn't matter, as long as it is decent quality and is in good condition. In other words, get a hard-rubber C* or something similar. Vandoren makes good, cheap mouthpieces.

However, there's so much emphasis on the horn -- "You NEED the $10,000 5-digit Mark VI alto I'm selling!" -- and whatnot. Makes me wonder about the thing that generates the noise: (ultimately YOU playing) the mouthpiece. And I can say that I've had my own trials and tribulations with mouthpieces and could heartily accept someone saying, "The mouthpiece matters as much as the horn" because I've been in a place where the only thing that changed was the mouthpiece and I played better, as a result. Change of horn seriously affecting how I played? Really, not as much. I definitely think that some of the really high-end pro horns made my life easier in a few ways (keywork, intonation, etc.), but I could slap a decent mouthpiece on a Bundy II and still sound pretty darn good.
 
At sax lessons this afternoon a younger lady, actually a Microsoft employee, and I struck up a conversation. As she pulled out her sax I tried to see what it was but I didn't recognize it other than to say it was probably a $200 (new) sax. She couldn't get it to play and I asked her how long she'd been playing. She said about a year. I asked her if she played in school and she said only a little piano.

Apparently her instructor recommended that after 14 lessons she should move from a 2 to 3 strength reed. She said it was really hard to play right now because the mouthpiece was cracked. How do you crack a mouthpiece? Gandalfe always says that 80% of your sound comes from the mouthpiece, reed, neck, and you. But you would think that a lady with a job as good as she apparently has would get a better instrument.
 
Moving up reed strengths should only be done gradually if necessary. The way I decide on a reed strength is that I have to be able to play a high F sharp or altissimo G with ease and I have to be able to play a low B flat (or Low A on a Low A horn) with ease. If the top of the horn chokes up I know that the reed is too soft.

The other thing to keep I try to keep in mind is that the design of the mouthpiece will have an impact on the type of reed one needs. A high baffle piece with an opening of .80 on alto is going to feel rather closed but imagine trying to play a large chamber alto piece with that tip opening. It would be difficult for most players to use the same reed (but I'm sure there are a few who could make it work - not that they would make a practice of doing it).

I feel bad for the woman you mention. Having to fight reeds and a cracked mouthpiece. That's not going to make playing the saxophone a fun experience.
 
pete said:
I do hold a few truisms, that I've mentioned elsewhere:

* The horn doesn't matter, as long as it has decent build quality and is in good condition. In other words, get a Yamaha 23. It's good enough. You want a bit better keywork? OK, get a 275.
* The mouthpiece doesn't matter, as long as it is decent quality and is in good condition. In other words, get a hard-rubber C* or something similar. Vandoren makes good, cheap mouthpieces.
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Pete, I think that these statements are very true as well. In addition, I'd say that most of the Taiwanese and an increasing number of Chinese horns are more than capable of creating good music. From my experiences, the knockoff horns with intonation issues have them because of A) Bad Setups or B) Bad necks. Some of these stencils really do have poorly designed necks, and I wonder if it's to prevent some copyright infringment on the horns they're stenciled off of. In the case of my Chinese Tenor, I did swap the knockoff neck for the name brand neck, and the horn is a solid player that I can play interchangeably with my Selmer. Now if you can't stand the idea of neck hunting, go with the Yamaha 23's or 275's as they're both great horns from the get go.

Mouthpieces are trickier to nail down. I agree with Ed when he says that you have to spend some time and "learn how to play the horn". However, for whatever reason, there are some mouthpieces that will be unplayable to certain players. I can not play on small chambered pieces...my tone sounds like CRAP if I do regardless of reed setup. On the other hand, some players can not understand why I use an Link STM on my alto. I've done the test with several saxophonists who can play circles around me. I'll give them my mouthpiece setup and let them use their own horn. Sure enough...some of em sound like crap using my setup. So the bottom line is that one size does not fit all with mouthpieces. IMHO horns seem to be more of an object of "status" with the "God-like" Mark VI putting you up top.
 
I almost think that having all these mouthpieces is a good thing. At some point, my son will say to me he's not happy with his sound and I'll be able to nail down what he likes and dislikes pretty quickly. It took me a bit longer.

I think of the mouthpiece as the "fine tuning" of ones sound. Do you like a Meyer type sound on alto or a more classical sound? That kind of thing. If you can't really play the horn it doesn't matter because you're going to have a weak sound.

To use a car analogy, you are the engine, the horn is the suspension and handling, the neck is the drive train, the mouthpiece is the exhaust system, and the reed is the tailpipe. The beauty of being human is that we can upgrade the engine of our playing through practice and long tones.
 
I can't justify a $1K mouthpiece, for sure. I buy and use stock mouthpieces and the ones I like work for me. I see no need to seek further upgrades.

But, I think it ALL matters. All of those awesome players we've seen, playing absolute junk and sounding terrific aside, I'll bet that if they suddenly switched to their own horns and set-ups (or better horns and set-ups), set-ups and horns they've fine-tuned and adapted to over the years, they'd sound even better. It is easy to be WOWED when someone picks up your gear and makes it sound like Sidney or Hodges, but if you were able to hear them on THEIR equipment, it would be jaw-on-the-floor time.

I know that while I can play most any equipment, I do so much better with my own selected equipment AND a good reed (maybe the most critical part of my whole playing experience).

I've played for my grandsons - they just stare in awe and claim they wished they could get that sound. But when I listen to them play, I'm impressed - everyone has their own sound, even youngsters (who play well for their age).

And, I don't think we as players, feel or hear the full impact of our own sound. I recall many times standing next to some really GOOD players and wondering where THAT comes from - how DO they do that? Yet, when I'm in the audience listening to them, they sound no stronger than anyone else on stage (and I'm talking acoustic - no mics). I've come to realize that my horn, from alongside, has a similar impact on others playing with me . . . what sounds good to me as a player sounds VERY strong to others playing with me. That causes me to back off a bit, too.

The age-old dilemma, I suspect. DAVE
 
Well I've used a mouthpiece upgrade (I've probably got around 30 mouthpieces laying around) as an incentive for my students to practice. Right now I have a Walter Grabner LB bass clarinet with my grandson's name on it. The JD Hite that he has isn't that bad, but he's heard me play the WG piece and he lusts after it. Since he just started on bass clarinet (he's in sixth grade) two week or so ago, we'll see if he practices enough to warrant the upgrade.

But with the rather inexpensive JD Hite, he does as well as anyone in his class (sound wise). I really don't think you have to spend a lot of money to get a competent upgrade. I with a lot of mouthpieces it might surprise you when a student picks a low costing mouthpiece as the one he/she prefers.
 
I think of the Kessler 50/50 pieces which are great bang for the buck. My main piece on tenor was picked up used for $50. Now granted I refaced it and modified the baffle which I can do with relative ease but there are good pieces out there that are stock. I am always surprised at how many clarinet players I know who are playing on Vandoren stock pieces these days.
 
Ed Svoboda said:
I almost think that having all these mouthpieces is a good thing. At some point, my son will say to me he's not happy with his sound and I'll be able to nail down what he likes and dislikes pretty quickly. It took me a bit longer.

I think of the mouthpiece as the "fine tuning" of ones sound. Do you like a Meyer type sound on alto or a more classical sound? That kind of thing. If you can't really play the horn it doesn't matter because you're going to have a weak sound.

To use a car analogy, you are the engine, the horn is the suspension and handling, the neck is the drive train, the mouthpiece is the exhaust system, and the reed is the tailpipe. The beauty of being human is that we can upgrade the engine of our playing through practice and long tones.
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Mmmm. I know from experience that a car can run without a tailpipe or exhaust. Can't make a sax work without a mouthpiece and reed :).

As I mentioned, for me, it really isn't that much about sound, but how easy it is to play. If it's too difficult, why would I want to do it?
 
I didn't say it was a perfect analogy.

As a technology guy I'm always trying to find a good analogy to explain something. It doesn't have to be perfect but it should get the point across.

I can't share my favorite one as it involved a bunch of sales guys around 13 years ago. Let's just say I had to fly to Ohio to disinfect most of the sale forces laptops due to them swapping floppies.
 
Let's just say I had to fly to Ohio to disinfect most of the sale forces laptops due to them swapping floppies.
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Quoting a friend of mine regarding that kind of "technical issue": "Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

=========

Back on topic, the only change in tone I ever really looked at in mouthpieces was the rubber to metal one: the tone difference is quite obvious. In other words, I can't wail like Lenny Pickett (he's the sax player on Saturday Night Live, for those of you who've gotten lost), if I'm using a Rascher. Not that I could anyhow, mind you ....

I do have a wooden mouthpiece for clarinet. I never really noticed any difference in tone between that and my Selmer C85/120. I don't like it as much: it's more resistant and the C85 responds a lot better, but I like a warm, reedy tone. And it was my grandfather's old mouthpiece. Yup: someone stole the horn, but I had the mouthpiece in a separate case.

But, responding to Dave's comment, I don't know of any pro players that play junk. A whole lotta Selmer Mark VIs. A whole lotta high-end mouthpieces. I think the exceptions may have only been Ornette Coleman and Charlie Parker -- playing on the Grafton Acrylic Alto: those horns weren't really "pro" makes. I know of a lot of pros that have YAS-23's as backup horns, but not "super pro" folks.

Hmm. Another question: I've only got one Rascher bari 'piece. My wife happens to have two C* alto 'pieces (hard rubber). Do most of y'all have multiples of your "main" mouthpiece?
 
Pete: I guess I didn't write that comment clearly. What I meant was to use that old saw about some great player picking up a comb-and-tissue paper kazoo and making it sound good. So if Bechet or Hodges picked up some kid's horn in the band room, Bechet or Hodges would probably make that student junker sound great.

Still, they'd sound even better with their own equipment. THAT's why I think it all (the horn, the mouthpiece, etc.) matters. While to us lesser players and fans, our heros have enough talent to make the worst thing sound decent, they sure would do better with better equipment.

Huh? DAVE
 
Hey, Dave.

I think I lost my point. I'll look for it. Hold on.

OK. I'm back.

So, Dave, in your opinion, would that be a vote for, "The mouthpiece is AS important as the horn" or "Neither the mouthpiece nor the horn matters: it's how good YOU are as a player"?

In my own little world, I'm starting to think that the mouthpiece matters as much as the horn, which I why I've made the statement, "Get a *decent* horn and a *decent* mouthpiece and you're all set."

And I'd still like someone to justify to me a $1000 mouthpiece. Hey, they have a whole lotta those out there (currently two on eBay US in that range).
 
pete said:
And I'd still like someone to justify to me a $1000 mouthpiece. Hey, they have a whole lotta those out there (currently two on eBay US in that range).
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It's called Prestige of owning a mouthpiece that costs nearly as much as your horn. I think going over $200 for a mouthpiece is ridiculous for any average player. Heck, there are a ton of great pieces that can be had for less than $100. I mean, unless you're touring with top acts and are working 300+ days a year, you can not justify paying that much for a mouthpiece.

Of course, if I owned an Inderbinen, then naturally I would want a $1000 mouthpiece. Anything less would be unworthy of the horn.
 
The Inderbinen is the most expensive basic alto saxophone that's available today (about $7000, last I checked), for those folks that are lost.

By "basic" I mean that you can get, say, a titanium-plated Keilwerth SX90R alto, with titanium-plated neck and resos and custom pads, etc. for more cash (about $11,000, IIRC) -- or a Jim Schmidt alto ($8,000), but the Schmidt horn has non-standard (but possibly better) keywork.

That being said, I've also seen some Selmer Mark VIs selling for over $7000. The buyers of these horns have a special kind of insanity.

All that being said, I could somewhat justify the price of an Inderbinen because they're all mostly handmade (the keywork's from a Yamaha 62, IIRC) and they are produced in low quantities. And they're considered very, very good -- however, I think this might just be because of the neck -- and to a lesser extent, the bow and bell, rather than the overall design. Hey, on paper, a standard Yamaha, Yanagisawa, Keilwerth or Selmer is a much better horn: they're computer designed to reduce intonation problems and to have lesser variation between models.

However, I could be wrong. I frequently am. Or I'm annoyed that I sent Inderbinen an e-mail requesting a review horn and they said, "Sure! If you come to Germany!" :D.

... But none of this says that a $1000 'piece isn't worth it. Maybe they're the best things evar made.
 
pete said:
That being said, I've also seen some Selmer Mark VIs selling for over $7000. The buyers of these horns have a special kind of insanity.
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:emoji_smile: Somebody said it, and it wasn't me.

As far as a $1,000 mouthpiece goes, come on now. There has to come a point when a player must take personal responsibility for his ability to perform (this means that you gotta practice and work a lil). Find equipment that works well, but don't go broke in the process. A $1,000,000 setup will still sound like crap if you don't know how to play the instrument. Don't believe me? Get me a Stradivarius violin, and I promise that I'll sound like crap. :emoji_rage:

Pete, are the Inderbinen's really $7,000 now? I've heard some really outragous price quotes in the past regarding these horns. If this figure is right, then it is matching the price of an increasing number of VI's these days. I still can't justify the cost of buying a horn going for 6k+, and I don't feel bad about it. After all, Jeff Coffin uses Yamaha Customs. I think that I'll follow his lead and stick with my "mortal" pro horn. ;)
 
Pete: Funny. This wouldn't be the first time I lost MY way!

I think it all matters but I'd hate to give a value (weight?) to each factor. As soon as one takes it apart, someone else will challenge that assessment and probably make a good case for changing all the weights.

If the horn leaks or is out of tune, the mouthpiece won't matter much. If the mouthpiece doesn't work with the player's embouchure, the quality of the horn won't matter much. And if the reed is weak or not right for the embouchure and/or the mouthpiece, then the whole thing is less than good.

We've all heard good players where nothing SEEMS to matter, though. Pick it up and play it - and it sounds good. I suspect we've all had leaky horns that we were able to blow through without much notice. But when the player is good and the equipment is good for the player, then it is about as good as it can be.

$1K mouthpieces? Not in MY life, and I could afford one if I wanted it. DAVE
 
SuperAction80 said:
Pete, are the Inderbinen's really $7,000 now?
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Forgive me. They're more. http://inderbinen.com/Page_e/SaxAlto_e.html: 6750 Euros. That's now $9910, according to XE.com.

Yes, I remember when they WERE $7K. In 2004 :). (Yes, a lot of the additional price is because of the exchange rate. The dollar sucks.)

OK. Let's change it to $9K. That's fine, because I can then quote this eBay ad. Note that it's closed. For $9400.

The $9K Mark VI alto is a special kind of insanity because they were selling for $3500 in pretty darn good shape two years ago (without worrying about an exchange rate) -- and, arguably, the S80 III or Reference horns are better than the VI. And, look at closed eBay prices: they still average around $3500 to $4500 for horns in decent shape (minus the $9K one and the $7K one). I don't think that VIs just got 2.5 times better in the past two years.

Hey, even if I found an intact, but completely beat up Mark VI (such as this low A alto for $1700), I could have it restored very nicely and spend less than $9K, total. Heck, I could probably have it gold plated, too: that's only $4K, IIRC.

However, if Selmer starts seeing Mark VI altos consistently selling for $9K, they will DEFINITELY take the design out of mothballs and start producing it. Hey, they don't want to compete with themselves. So, keep buying junk VIs for $9K, folks!
 
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