New chinese made C melody?

[LowThudd]

I ran accross this: Cheapo C Mel

Appears to be EXACTLY like the aquillasax: Gold AQ C Mel

Right down to the decoration on the key guard. Probably the manufacturer that makes them for Aquillasax.

I have seen this happen in the guitar world. A (Major) guitar maker hires a company in asia to make a model of guitar. As soon as the contract is up(or other issue), the factory starts selling the same instrument as their own model. Of course, all of the design and R&D costs are paid for already, all the factory has to do is keep the equipment running. Settup, however is usually sub par, and customer support next to nill. Nit sure that it is worth the couple hundred dollar discount, but if the prices get a little lower it might be.

 

[LowThudd]

I actually found the same sax MUCH cheaper through alibaba @$300!

Might be a decent option, if the quality is the same as Aquillasax, sans settup.

 

[pete]

I actually found the same sax MUCH cheaper through alibaba @$300!

a. If it's too good to be true, it probably is.
b. I think they want you to buy in quantity, not just one.
c. I don't trust any company that sells horns advertised with, "Like Selmer!"
d. Why are they including Vaseline in the case?

 

[LowThudd]

a. If it's too good to be true, it probably is.
b. I think they want you to buy in quantity, not just one.
c. I don't trust any company that sells horns advertised with, "Like Selmer!"
d. Why are they including Vaseline in the case?

a. Alibaba is a little shady, but I know people who have bought from them succesfully.
b. Nope, they will sell just one. The price is lower the more you buy.
c. No comment. lol Poor salesmanship at the least.
d. Possibly for cork grease. *shrug* might be a Babblefish translation for "petrolatum and wax" which is what cork grease of coarse is.

The fact is, alibaba is a somewhat well known wholesaler of Chinese goods. You do have to look out for what you are getting. However, I find it hard to believe that there is much of a market for knock off Aquilasax C Melodies. Assuming the picture is acurate(you are right, it might not be), it *looks* identacle, down to the key guard jewels to the Aquilasax C Mel. Also, no where on the Aquilasax website do they call themselves the Manufacturer, or producer, or maker. Just the distributor. This very common practice in NZ and Oz, to distribute China made products. Being that they don't take credit for making the instruments, I would be extremely surprised if they did.

 

[pete thomas]

Of course, it's easy to assume it's the same factory selling the same horn. If it is and Aquilasax have no current exclusive contract, then you might save some money, but as you say it could have lower QC.

If the contract with Aquilasax is exclusive and current, andf its the same factiry, then you are essentially buying an illegal copy.

However it's also possible that it;'s made at a totally different factory to much lower standards, they just happen to have the design templates and/or copies of the tooling. I think of this, which is extremely possible, every time somebody sees a Chinese or Taiwanese saxophone and it looks "identical" to another, so they assume it is the same. The body bore might be a millimeter or two out and the tuning or tone quality is completely out the window.

 

[LowThudd]

Of course, it's easy to assume it's the same factory selling the same horn. If it is and Aquilasax have no current exclusive contract, then you might save some money, but as you say it could have lower QC.

If the contract with Aquilasax is exclusive and current, andf its the same factiry, then you are essentially buying an illegal copy.

However it's also possible that it;'s made at a totally different factory to much lower standards, they just happen to have the design templates and/or copies of the tooling. I think of this, which is extremely possible, every time somebody sees a Chinese or Taiwanese saxophone and it looks "identical" to another, so they assume it is the same. The body bore might be a millimeter or two out and the tuning or tone quality is completely out the window.

All very true. I still think one point I made is very valid: How much of a market could there be for a manufacturer to completely retool in order to make a cloned Aquilisax? Doesn't seem very profitable, when there are countless rebuildable vintage horns out there. I know that Aquilisax has gone through several orders which were not up to spec. Perhaps it could be one of the makers that failed. *Shrug* No way to know for sure. I was just pointing out an interesting option.

Myself, I would rather spend the money fixing up an antique C Mel(which I am currently doing), rather than buy a new one, from Aquilasax or *Other*, and still having to spend some money making it perfect. Then again, I love antiques, and have a fairly large collection of antique cameras and other stuffs.

 

[pete]

All very true. I still think one point I made is very valid: How much of a market could there be for a manufacturer to completely retool in order to make a cloned Aquilisax?

That sounds a lot like, "Thanks for your point. I'm going to ignore it."

Aquilasax decided that there was enough market to build a "modern" C melody and they still do. There were folks -- I think I was one of them -- that pointed out that there are an awful lot of vintage C melodies out there that can be had for pretty cheap. This was also demonstrated with that minty C melody I posted about awhile ago that sold for all of $285. So, if I'm a manufacturer, I'd say, "Well, the average perfect-shape horn on eBay sells for $500. I can build a much shinier example for $20. I'll sell them for $300. $280 profit. No problem!" Or, "I can copy a pic of a horn on the Internet for free. I can then post it on $shady_website and get some naive folks to pay me $300 for a picture. Maybe I can get some to buy some purple lacquer Selmer Reference 54s, too."

If it was insanely expensive to set up tooling for a saxophone, we wouldn't have had approximately 120 professional-model sax manufacturers.

There are folks currently building a Bb sopranissimo, a G mezzo-soprano, a C soprano, a C melody with completely different keywork, a Bb and C contrabass, and a Bb sub contrabass saxophone. I know that those have always been extremely small markets, but the manufacturers obviously think the horns will be profitable or they'd stop making them. That'd be the same rationale for some other seller, too.

Anyhow, bottom line is that you should listen to Mr. Thomas. There's a good reason why his username is in bold orange: he knows what he's talking about and may even have personal experience.

 

[LowThudd]

That sounds a lot like, "Thanks for your point. I'm going to ignore it."

Aquilasax decided that there was enough market to build a "modern" C melody and they still do. There were folks -- I think I was one of them -- that pointed out that there are an awful lot of vintage C melodies out there that can be had for pretty cheap. This was also demonstrated with that minty C melody I posted about awhile ago that sold for all of $285. So, if I'm a manufacturer, I'd say, "Well, the average perfect-shape horn on eBay sells for $500. I can build a much shinier example for $20. I'll sell them for $300. $280 profit. No problem!" Or, "I can copy a pic of a horn on the Internet for free. I can then post it on $shady_website and get some naive folks to pay me $300 for a picture. Maybe I can get some to buy some purple lacquer Selmer Reference 54s, too."

If it was insanely expensive to set up tooling for a saxophone, we wouldn't have had approximately 120 professional-model sax manufacturers.

There are folks currently building a Bb sopranissimo, a G mezzo-soprano, a C soprano, a C melody with completely different keywork, a Bb and C contrabass, and a Bb sub contrabass saxophone. I know that those have always been extremely small markets, but the manufacturers obviously think the horns will be profitable or they'd stop making them. That'd be the same rationale for some other seller, too.

Anyhow, bottom line is that you should listen to Mr. Thomas. There's a good reason why his username is in bold orange: he knows what he's talking about and may even have personal experience.

Understood. Sorry if I overstepped. That was not my intent. I have seen similar circumstances as I am describing occur, and my a favorite guitar of mine was built in just such a factory that was (supposedly) making Epi's at the time in Korea. If the C mel sax were more popular today, I would agree completely.

However, I obviously am just starting to learn when it comes to woodwinds, and I will keep that in mind. No hard feelings I hope.

I love this forum, and I have learned TONS from you folks here. I have been on the manufacturing end of this situation when I was working as a mechanic/fabricator in the early nineties. So, I may have overly solidified opinions as a result.

 

[LowThudd]

Of course, it's easy to assume it's the same factory selling the same horn. If it is and Aquilasax have no current exclusive contract, then you might save some money, but as you say it could have lower QC.

If the contract with Aquilasax is exclusive and current, andf its the same factiry, then you are essentially buying an illegal copy.

However it's also possible that it;'s made at a totally different factory to much lower standards, they just happen to have the design templates and/or copies of the tooling. I think of this, which is extremely possible, every time somebody sees a Chinese or Taiwanese saxophone and it looks "identical" to another, so they assume it is the same. The body bore might be a millimeter or two out and the tuning or tone quality is completely out the window.

Again, no offense intended. Just my oppinion based on my own *Guitar* based logic. Obviously I have a lot to learn about woodwinds.

BTW, I just checked out your website...Fantastic! Wish I had looked at it earlier.

 

[clarnibass]

a. If it's too good to be true, it probably is.
b. I think they want you to buy in quantity, not just one.
c. I don't trust any company that sells horns advertised with, "Like Selmer!"
d. Why are they including Vaseline in the case?

a. Alibaba is a little shady, but I know people who have bought from them succesfully.
b. Nope, they will sell just one. The price is lower the more you buy.
c. No comment. lol Poor salesmanship at the least.
d. Possibly for cork grease. *shrug* might be a Babblefish translation for "petrolatum and wax" which is what cork grease of coarse is.

I have bought from Alibaba. What I wanted (not saxophones) looked and was described the same in many advertisements there. Some even used the exact same photos. I think I tried about six sellers. Only two came with the quality I was looking for. There was no way to tell other than trying samples. I then bought more from those two sellers.

Basically, you can get great and terrible products from there. You might be able to tell which is which from some clues in the ad. You might be able to learn from talking to the salesman/woman (there is a chat you can use). You might need to try a samples and gamble. It all depends.

They often sell a small amount and give a discount for buying more, but most there are to sell a lot. Often buying one is still significantly cheaper than just about everywhere else.

As far as its quality, it's hard to say and most likely you'd have to try. It's possible to is exactly the same. It's possible it looks exactly the same but as significantly different build quality. I've seen Chinese saxophones that look pretty much identical but have huge differences once you disassemble some parts and find out what they are really like. You couldn't tell the difference from a photo or even just looking at the instruments themselves.

It's entirely possible, for example ,that that name-brand C saxophone has all its parts made by someone and then assembled somewhere else. Who knows (maybe someone does?)?

From the details that are there, I'd say it's about 50% that it's the same saxophone...